Dream wrote:Even though i agree (checked this thread a long time ago, now checking it again) I have to say i still find this topic kind of funny. I disagree with the idea of Misato being a slut or anything similar, of course, but it's still funny.

I agree. Threads where people get very, VERY angry about the smallest details of Eva are my favorite.

Warren Peace wrote:I agree. Threads where people get very, VERY angry about the smallest details of Eva are my favorite.

*runs back in with bowl of popcorn* Did I miss anything, guys?!

Anyway, I think Ritsuko may have been jealous of Misato's aptitude in dealing with men, not of Kaji specifically. Also, I'm pretty sure that Misato was aware of Hyuga's feelings for her, at least after the "It's fine, as long as I'm with you." line from episode 24. And after that... well, Hyuga had his own "alone time" with Misato soon enough.

Misato's cold shoulder was intentional, I'd say. Oh Hyuga, if only you were 10+ years younger...

Warren Peace wrote:Misato's cold shoulder was intentional, I'd say. Oh Hyuga, if only you were 10+ years younger...

I don't think that'd help, seeing as how Misato's main squeeze was Kaji.

"Human sexuality be fucked up y'all."
-Freud

The submissive/dominant thing is really interesting in Misato. The submissive side with Kaji is obvious, but the dominant aspects is where it gets really fun. That side is tied to her work, where she gets great satisfaction is blowing up them Angel dumbasses. It's also tied to Shinji, where her sexuality expresses itself in an entirely different way than with Kaji. She gets to (or hopes to be) "the boss". Hyuga would probably have a better shot if he didn't hit on her so directly. That way, he could maybe possibly slip into the Shinji role as meek boy toy. Alas, he doesn't fit her insecurities quite well enough...

The very first thing we see of Misato is an image of her cleavage on a picture, with an arrow directing Shinji to look directly at it. We then see Misato, a little later on, tell Ritsuko jokingly say she "won't put the moves on him." How many non-sluts do you know in real life that immediately start sexualizing themselves to 14-year-old boys whom they've just met?

It's not like slut is a technical term and we can quantify her slutness in the form of how many picoskanks of sluttiness each action confers on her.

Misato is basically stuck in a 14 year old mentality in many ways herself, sees Shinji as a passive victim for the dominant aspect of her sexuality (as said by Warren Peace) and the show is setting her up as a Fanservice Character; Misato's character arc is an examination of that archetype the way Shinji is an examination of the reluctant but determined protagonist and Asuka is an examination of the hot blooded ace pilot.

Merkaba wrote:The very first thing we see of Misato is an image of her cleavage on a picture, with an arrow directing Shinji to look directly at it. We then see Misato, a little later on, tell Ritsuko jokingly say she "won't put the moves on him." How many non-sluts do you know in real life that immediately start sexualizing themselves to 14-year-old boys whom they've just met?

Well, fuck. If you didn't make an impression as a poster before, you did now. And in my opinion it's not a good one.

That said, i would point to Chuckman's post even when i disagree on the deconstruction part (I don't view the characters as deconstruction of archetypes so much as people) And highly disagree on Misato being in a 14-year-old mentality. Aside from that, i would also point out to the rest of this thread. That said, apparently there is still a lot to be said in the aspect of Misato's sexuality (And sexuality in general in the series i think) considering Warren's post.

Dream wrote:Well, fuck. If you didn't make an impression as a poster before, you did now. And in my opinion it's not a good one.

Why isn't it a good one?

Merkaba wrote:Why isn't it a good one?

This likely varies from person to person, but i kinda cringe when someone refers to a woman with words like "slut"

Dream wrote:This likely varies from person to person, but i kinda cringe when someone refers to a woman with words like "slut"

1) It's in the title (which I didn't come up with), and
2) Imagine you ask one of your female co-workers to pick your 14-year-old son up from school. You later find out that, not only did she pick him up, put she gave him a picture of her cleavage, with instructions to stare at it, as well as various sexual comments and overt sexualized flirtation with your 14-year-old. Do you really think that the word "slut" will not cross your mind, not once?

Merkaba wrote:1) It's in the title (which I didn't come up with), and
2) Imagine you ask one of your female co-workers to pick your 14-year-old son up from school. You later find out that, not only did she pick him up, put she gave him a picture of her cleavage, with instructions to stare at it, as well as various sexual comments and overt sexualized flirtation with your 14-year-old. Do you really think that the word "slut" will not cross your mind, not once?

1) Even ignoring the original title of your thread that got merged, i was referring to the implied wording in the post of yours i just quoted.
2) I'll be honest and say that i can't really put myself in the position required for your rethorical question, it's just too hard for me to imagine a relationship with a son. That said, i would probably be worried, and i probably would think things like "pervert" or "pedophile" or whatever (this is just assuming the worst-case scenario though) But not the word "slut", i just don't think it makes sense for the situation.

1) Even ignoring the original title of your thread that got merged, i was referring to the implied wording in the post of yours i just quoted.
2) I'll be honest and say that i can't really put myself in the position required for your rethorical question, it's just too hard for me to imagine a relationship with a son. That said, i would probably be worried, and i probably would think things like "pervert" or "pedophile" or whatever (this is just assuming the worst-case scenario though) But not the word "slut", i just don't think it makes sense for the situation.

1) Fair enough, but my point was that this thread existed long before I was a member, and even then that word was being tossed around regarding this specific situation/character.
2) I have two sons, and though they're not 14, I really think that a combination of all of the words we used would run through my head and, in all likelihood, out of my mouth. My point is, however, that no matter what label we give her, Misato fit the criteria for all of those words (with the most speculation being on "slut," I suppose, which is the purpose of this thread; to debate that specific label.) But again, my hypothetical was clearly based off of her and Shinji's situation. You said she's a pervert and a pedophile. Why is "slut" any more of a dirty word?

Chuckman wrote:It's not like slut is a technical term and we can quantify her slutness in the form of how many picoskanks of sluttiness each action confers on her.

Though if a woman doesn't sleep around it's awfully hard to assign any sluttiness to her.

Misato is basically stuck in a 14 year old mentality in many ways herself, sees Shinji as a passive victim for the dominant aspect of her sexuality (as said by Warren Peace) and the show is setting her up as a Fanservice Character; Misato's character arc is an examination of that archetype the way Shinji is an examination of the reluctant but determined protagonist and Asuka is an examination of the hot blooded ace pilot.

Pity the show was a bit too subtle in Misato's case, as people still don't seem to be getting the message.

Dream wrote:That said, i would point to Chuckman's post even when i disagree on the deconstruction part (I don't view the characters as deconstruction of archetypes so much as people)

They're not though. They're fictional characters in a TV show, and they and their stories are designed to communicate certain points to the audience. The show is filled with symbolism and subtext and the viewer really needs to pay attention to that to get anything out of it. And of course, a character doesn't somehow become invalid just because he or she is the deconstruction of a stereotype. Indeed, that often gives characters added depth that they wouldn't have otherwise.

And highly disagree on Misato being in a 14-year-old mentality.

Have you seen her apartment? Have you noticed that a 14-year-old boy is handling most of her day to day tasks? Did you forget that she suckers Hyuga into doing her laundry on a regular basis? And what about the fact she gets drunk to the point of passing out every night after coming home from work?

This is not a mature woman by any stretch of the imagination. And really, if she weren't so traumatized by 2I she probably would be a slut; using sex as a substitute for intimacy is something a lot of people do to cope with life, and Misato has more of an excuse than most. But between her fixation on Kaji, her father issues, and her traumas she can't bring herself to do it for real. So she plays a role and convinces herself it's okay even though the truth is that she hates herself with a passion.

You know, just like the rest of the cast.

Merkaba wrote:2) Imagine you ask one of your female co-workers to pick your 14-year-old son up from school. You later find out that, not only did she pick him up, put she gave him a picture of her cleavage, with instructions to stare at it, as well as various sexual comments and overt sexualized flirtation with your 14-year-old. Do you really think that the word "slut" will not cross your mind, not once?

If my name's Gendo Ikari I probably ordered her to do it.

And the issue isn't that "slut" is somehow a dirty word so much as that it doesn't apply here. If you're not fucking people you're not a slut. You might be pervert or a pedophile (which are worse IMO), but you aren't a slut. Words mean things, yo.

1) That is true, and i did cringe before when people called Misato a slut or whatever without any hint of irony.

2) I might probably sound a bit harsh when i say this (i don't know how old your children are but i assume older than 14) But i think you should relax a bit. Not to say that a young child being propositioned or abused by an older woman is good of course, but that is not what Misato was doing at the beggining, she was just teasing Shinji and i think it's likely that if for some reason Shinji understood that as a sexual proposition and reacted accordingly Misato would have snapped back at her more adult/responsible persona. The most i would call her would be a tease, but i don't think she is a slut in any possible interpretation of the word. And i said she was a pervert and pedophile (in the worst case scenario, i should repeat) because those two words feel accurate and appropiate to her hypothethical actions. Slut feels both unnecessary and loaded as a word. Actually part of what make the word slut so cringe-worthy for me was this thread i think, i recommend you check it out if you still haven't but i'm specifically referring to the explanation in this post

EDIT: Ninja'd, i think Bagheera explained what i meant to say in 2) much better than me with his last line.

And the issue isn't that "slut" is somehow a dirty word so much as that it doesn't apply here. If you're not fucking people you're not a slut. You might be pervert or a pedophile (which are worse IMO), but you aren't a slut. Words mean things, yo.

That situation was just one of the examples I was giving about my perceptions of Misato's sexuality. Granted, that may not directly make her a slut, but my other points from earlier in the thread dealt with that.

You're right; perv and pedo are way worse things to be, by societal standards. But I'm still not convinced (and I don't mean to piss you off for feeling as such) that Misato hasn't slept with others beside Kaji.

If she only slept with him, eight years prior, why is she still feeling like a mega-slut during Instrumentality? Why would she stop being sexually active, just because they broke up?

I am almost positive, and it sounds like others are, too, that she banged Hyuga occasionally.

And again, was she not sexually active during the eight years or so in between Kaji and Hyuga? Doubtful.

Let's say, by some miracle, she hasn't slept with anyone since Kaji. Fine. She's still, as the last three posters pointed out, a pedophile.

Yay for her not being a slut, though!

PS - You're smart enough to know that words, as with every other perception, are contingent upon the individual. Granted, words are what allow us as a species to interact, but words themselves are nothing more than labels and definitions of other labels and definitions of experiences filtered through the past experiences of said individual. I tend to think people who behave like Misato are what many would call "sluts." She wears the short skirts, flirts people (no age restrictions), uses men's attraction to her to get what she wants (Hyuga, Shinji), strives to "dirty herself," etc. It goes beyond Kaji.

Merkaba wrote:You're right; perv and pedo are way worse things to be, by societal standards. But I'm still not convinced (and I don't mean to piss you off for feeling as such) that Misato hasn't slept with others beside Kaji.

Except we've never seen any indication of such and she tells us straight up that she hasn't done it. Why would both she and the show lie about it?

If she only slept with him, eight years prior, why is she still feeling like a mega-slut during Instrumentality? Why would she stop being sexually active, just because they broke up?

Because she's fucked in the head and has serious daddy issues, just like I said.

I am almost positive, and it sounds like others are, too, that she banged Hyuga occasionally.

Based on what?

Let's say, by some miracle, she hasn't slept with anyone since Kaji. Fine. She's still, as the last three posters pointed out, a pedophile.

Well, no, she isn't. You have to molest kids to be a pedophile, and she hasn't done that, either (inappropriate commentary and a SFW picture, all with someone who's of legal age, don't count). As I said, words mean things.

I tend to think people who behave like Misato are what many would call "sluts."

Yes, people use words inappropriately all the time. What of it?

I don't remember exactly where but there was a post made by Reichu in this thread which indicated that a part of the original Japanese dialogue strongly implied Kaji was Misato's only sexual partner, i think it was kind of ambiguous though. Rei herself points out that Instrumentality is strongly influenced by your mind and how you see yourself, and the lines between the real and outer you and etc. become blurred, just like everyone else's, what i'm trying to say is that there's a good possibility no one actually thinks Misato's a slut, but since she feels she is, people are calling her slut in her instrumentality. I can't imagine how people could reach to the conclusion that she banged Hyuga, and i never said that she was a pedophile, i said she was a tease.

Pity the show was a bit too subtle in Misato's case, as people still don't seem to be getting the message.

What message?

Have you seen her apartment? Have you noticed that a 14-year-old boy is handling most of her day to day tasks? Did you forget that she suckers Hyuga into doing her laundry on a regular basis? And what about the fact she gets drunk to the point of passing out every night after coming home from work? This is not a mature woman by any stretch of the imagination.

Hmm, good point. I think most of what made me disagree with the idea of her being mentally 14 is her position and actions as NERV's captain and her subsequent investigations of the HIP after Kaji's death. She is quite a fuck-up in terms of leading a household or a family, but she isn't completely irresponsible either. And yeah, like the rest of the cast, she is hopelessly incomplete and fucked-up, kind of off-topic but i always assumed that if she had the choice at the end of EoE she wouldn't come back.

If my name's Gendo Ikari I probably ordered her to do it.

I wouldn't be so sure, i can see him doing that in a pragmatic sense to get Shinji to nod at an innapropiate time, but i don't think he would use that specific type of underhandedness. Whatever his flaws might be Gendo was often respectful of Shinji's decisions.

Dream wrote:I don't remember exactly where but there was a post made by Reichu in this thread which indicated that a part of the original Japanese dialogue strongly implied Kaji was Misato's only sexual partner, i think it was kind of ambiguous though.

Quite the contrary. If anything it's even more definitive than the English version, leaving no ambiguity whatsoever. People still tried to play word games after that, but past that point there was nothing left to talk about.

What message?

That Misato's fucked up and has an overly negative image of herself as a result, same as Shinji and Asuka. She calls herself a slut and thinks of herself as a slut because she feels like one on account of the way she used Kaji to run away from her problems in college (and realizing this is why she broke up with him in the first place). But she isn't one, and she's actually a very okay person (if an utter failure as a guardian), and if she'd realized that during the descent arc she might've saved Shinji and Asuka a lot of pain (and possibly saved the world in the process).

Hmm, good point. I think most of what made me disagree with the idea of her being mentally 14 is her position and actions as NERV's captain and her subsequent investigations of the HIP after Kaji's death. She is quite a fuck-up in terms of leading a household or a family, but she isn't completely irresponsible either.

Oddly, I can relate to her. I'm pretty solid at work and in terms of doing things that need to be done, but apart from that . . .

And yeah, like the rest of the cast, she is hopelessly incomplete and fucked-up, kind of off-topic but i always assumed that if she had the choice at the end of EoE she wouldn't come back.

I think she would, both out of guilt and because she knows Shinji and Asuka would need her help. Their mothers certainly aren't doing them any good . . .

I wouldn't be so sure, i can see him doing that in a pragmatic sense to get Shinji to nod at an innapropiate time, but i don't think he would use that specific type of underhandedness. Whatever his flaws might be Gendo was often respectful of Shinji's decisions.

Yeah, I was just being facetious here. I very much doubt he'd actually do that.

Quite the contrary. If anything, it's even more definitive than the English version, leaving no ambiguity whatsoever. People still tried to play word games after that, but past that point there was nothing left to talk about.

Right, so i guess that definitively settles it then.

That Misato's fucked up and has an overly negative image of herself as a result, same as Shinji and Asuka. She calls herself a slut and thinks of herself as a slut because she feels like one on account of the way she used Kaji to run away from her problems in college (and realizing this is why she broke up with him in the first place). But she isn't one, and she's actually a very okay person (if an utter failure as a guardian), and if she's realized that during the descent arc she might've saved Shinji and Asuka a lot of pain (and possibly saved the world in the process).

Ah, the whole deal of the main characters not being nearly as bad or as fucked up as they want to think they are? It always struck me as a rather clear message to me, well at least more clear with Shinji, and with Misato and other characters on secondary viewings. And yeah it is a shame to think of how differently things could have played out in the descent arc if Misato and other characters got to forgive themselves.

Oddly, I can relate to her. I'm pretty solid at work and in terms of doing things that need to be done, but apart from that . . .

I suppose it's mostly because at work there is generally a pretty clear guideline or route to follow, unlike someone's private life (on most cases)

I think she would, both out of guilt and because she knows Shinji and Asuka would need her help. Their mothers certainly aren't doing them any good . . .

Yeah, forgot to mention her possible concern for the kids, she would likely return for that reason although i didn't count because that reason for returning wasn't for herself but for someone else. And to be fair Kyoko is too fucked by cirscumtances that overwhelmed her and Yui's doing... Something, presumably important with the whole "monument to humanity" thing. Either that or she felt that for whatever reason she would be a bad mother for Shinji, who knows?