Agree with Seele00TextOnly; if I gave any thought to that scene, it would've been quite the opposite. Interesting to see food come up again.

(Also good to see Numbers-kun translating again.)

Seele00TextOnly wrote:Somehow with all the limitations on time and budget, so much more was always accomplished in the old series than here.

Working within tight constraints often has that effect, as it demands more creativity to get much done in the first place.

In defence of the scene in question: saying that Shinji needs experiences like these is not the same as saying that he bursts from joy at them, or immediately takes something away from them. In fact, he outright renounces the idea of becoming an adult while walking out from Gendo's office after the Unit-03 incident, so i think that having Shinji be detached and unconvinced when Kaji is giving him his lectures about adulthood was probably the idea.

Anno simply had an idea stemming from something he did in real life for a scene that isn't necessarily intended to portray what Anno felt at the moment he was picking weeds: Shinji is Anno's avatar, sure, but he is not Anno himself.

...

Seele00TextOnly:

I think your problem with the scene stems from my own issue with the film overall. This story just bites off more than the movie format can reasonably handle. The movie has to introduce Asuka and Mari, bring in five angels, have a new Unit 03 sequence, make a new ending of the Zeruel battle, rearrange relationships, and oh yeah somewhere in the middle of all that Shinji picks up some weeds and smells dirt on his hands.

It's not that the message is wrong or even that it was executed wrong. It simply gets lost amid all the other messages and scenes going on around it. I've said this in another thread, but my personal take on it is that Eva is better suited to the tv show format for this particular reason. If it were a show, you could actually have a whole episode that's a low key episode where something like this can happen with more breathing space. The arc of the individual episode could have been Shinji learning more about the world. Here though, in the movie format, the scene gets sandwiched in with everything else. So in discussions people bring up specific frames and compositional choices that are supposed to elicit the message, but that neglects the overall effect of those things when played in sequence. It doesn't mean it isn't there, just that it's awkwardly expressed.

I disagree that Anno would have expanded upon the weeds in a TV series simply because he had more time. NGE wasn't above making some things explicit, but this seems like the sort of thing Anno leaves in the background no matter what his format.

The biographical stuff is interesting but not essential to understanding the scene. The changes made were extremely wise... having Shinji simply watch Kaji gives the impression that Shinji is stonewalling him, resistant. But the way it is presented in the final product changes everything. By getting down in the dirt, Shinji shows a willingness to at least consider Kaji's words. There's less distance, less hostility. It shows Anno's strength as a visual storyteller.

As always, thanks to 1731298478 for the translation!

Thanks for the translation, as always.
Can't wait for more stuff!

Very interesting to hear about the conception of the new stuff.
Most here seem to disagree, but personally, I think Anno brought his point across very well with the "scent of earth" scene. It adds to the hand motifs and at least I really got the impression of Shinji making a new experience there, that he's starting to see the world in a different way and, you know, that he never actually knew that stuff like dirt has a ccharacteristic smell of its own, that he never stopped to notice it...
Which just suits how he's dealing with the concept of actively trying to change and improve which is a new concept to him, compared to his static childhood at his teacher's place.
It reminded me of when I once bought new shoes and the heels were too high, I couldn't walk to shool with them and had underestimated that, so I just put them into my bag and went barefoot. I noticed so many things I never noticed before on that day, what the ground beneath my feet actually feels like...

Also liked the thoughts on the aquarium scene. Some time ago, I've seen an interview with Kaji's new voice actor for Rebuild who really loved the aquarium scene and discribed the character in a way I had never really seen him, mostly as a survivor of a cathastrophe, which I guess he is.
Despite the fact that the "adults" save for Gendo got relatively little screentime, Anno DID invest plenty of time in making sure Kaji would still settle into that "surrogate father" role...
Because he really IS the one who does all the male-sharing-of-wisdom things a father would normally do.

Gendo was, at the height of his and Shinji's relationship before the bardiel incident (which is, basically the only time said relationship could be considered as existent) more something of a strict, distant Mentor.
If Anno is feeling merciful, they might actually reconcile in Rebuild, but I don't think they'd ever be able to function as normal father and son, that distance wouldn't go away. I can see Gendo as a mentor- or "master"-ly figure, if Shinji gets his act together, they might get to talk on equal footing as "accomplices" and make "deals", but yeah, shit HAS happened...


EDIT: Has this been discontinued...?

Here's my attempt at part 9 of Anno's interview. As always, please forgive my mistakes, and corrections and suggestions are hugely appreciated. This section uses a number of technical terms from anime production, so I was not always sure that I had the correct meaning. I also wasn't sure what the term "Heiwajima style" refers to.

Some notes:

Toshiba IHI Pavilion: An image of this is here at the bottom.

Yarare Mecha: Those mecha which appear in great numbers and tend to support or be destroyed by the main characters.

The mosaic effect: cf. 0:45 here.

Also - the angel using the AT Field to cover itself and as a rudder (I believe).

Para overlay: This refers to the color of everything going red when the dummy plug is activated in episode 18. "Para" is short for "paraffin."

Settei refers to all the "information" used to make the show, including things like monster specs and character designs, and also information about the world, events, mythology, and so on.

Irowake refers, I think, to deciding which parts of an image or design will be colored what color.

In the answer to the second question, I assumed that 竜宮 was a typo for 竜骸.

------

複数のクリエイターの総力で、すべてを刷新した使徒デザイン

Through the collective effort of a number of creators, completely revised angel designs

－今回、新しくなった要素として使徒についてもうかがっていきたいです。使徒のイメージは基本的庵野さんから出されたものですか。

- I would like to inquire about the angels as a new element this time around. Were the images of the angels basically something that you put forward?

庵野 第３使徒は、僕からラフを出しました。人類によるすでに捕獲、解体、分析、厳重保存されていたという設定でした。なので、外観は巨大生物の骨格標本のイメージです。あと、骨の怪獣といえばステゴン「１５」ですから、武器として口から溶解液というのも冗談混じりに話しましたね（笑）。

Anno: For the third angel, I did the rough original sketch. The concept was that it had already been captured, dissected, analyzed, and securely stored away by human beings. So, the image was that of a specimen, the enormous skeleton of a living being. Also, because we associate skeletal monsters with Stegon [15], we jokingly discussed giving it the ability to spew corrosive liquid from its mouth as a weapon (laughs).

「１５」特撮シリーズ「帰ってきたウルトラマン」（１９７１年）第１０話「恐竜爆破指令」に登場する化石怪獣ステゴンのこと。工事現場はら発掘された恐竜石化が、骨格のまま怪獣として復活する。

[1５] The fossil monster Stegon, which appears in episode 10 ("The Dinosaur Explosion Directive") of the tokusatsu series "The Return of Ultraman." A dinosaur fossil discovered at a construction site revives as a skeletal monster.

－鬼頭さんを選ばれたのは？

- Why did you end up choosing [Mohiro] Kitoh-san?

庵野 デザインが独特で面白いからです。「ぼくらの」というよりは「なるたる」の方ですね、お願いしたラインは。あの竜宮のイメージが面白かったので、その辺の感じでひとつ使徒をやってみませんかと。

Anno: Because his designs are unique and interesting. I asked for something more along the lines of Narutaru than Bokurano. I thought the images of the shadow dragons were interesting, and that I would try creating an angel along those lines.

－それはCG前提で？

- Was it created assuming that it would be in CG?

庵野 そうですね。CG前提で、基本は骨だけのイメージで考えました。あと、足みたいなものがついていないと走ってる感じがしないかなと思って、小さいのをつけ足しています。働きをつけたら、印象がなんだか、怖いというよりかわいくなりましたね。これで女子人気もいけるかなと(笑）。首やしっぽの働きは、もちろん特撮の操演「１６」を意識しています。

Anno: That's right. Assuming it would be in CG, I had the image in mind of [a creature that was] basically just bones. Also, thinking that you might not get a sense of movement if it didn't have some kind of legs, I added small ones. When we set it in motion, the impression it conveyed somehow became more cute than frightening. I thought, because of this, it could become popular with women, too (laughs). For the movement of its neck and tail, I of course had in mind the souen [16] of tokusatsu.

「１６」特撮スタッフのうち、人間の演技以外でミニチュアなどにアクションを起こさせる部門を指す。怪獣の着ぐるみの場合、人間の体型を逸脱した「長い首」「しっぽ」「羽根」などは操演がワイヤー（ピアノ線）で吊るしてドンとロールしている。『序』における第５の使徒も、ワイヤーを使った「操演風」のCGというコンセプトで描かれた。

[16] Among tokusatsu staff, the department which causes the activity of non-human actors such as miniatures. In the case of a monster costume, they control those parts which do not conform to the human body, such as a long neck, tail, or wings, using hanging wires (piano wire). In "Prelude," the fifth angel was also depicted according to the concept of [an apparently] wire-utilizing "souen style" CG.

－第７使徒は、懐かしの平和島風です。

- The seventh angel was in the old familiar Heiwajima style.

庵野 あれは僕からじゃないですね。小松田（大全）君とコヤマシケトさんの二人からアイデアを提案されました。

Anno: That didn't come from me. It was an idea proposed by (Daizen) Komatsuda-kun and Shigeto Koyama-san together.

－七〇年万博東芝IHI館みたいなイガイガがついています。

- There is a spikiness to it reminiscent of the Toshiba IHI pavilion at the 1970 World's Fair.

庵野 ブロックのように同じもので構成された、幾何学的で数が多く手で描けないものがCGには向くだろうと。万博のパビリオン「１７」みたいな形にならないかという意見は言いましたね。仕上がりはちょっとアート寄りになりましたが、いい感じかと。

Anno: I felt that, as it was constructed out of a number of identical components, like [a construction with] blocks, geometrical, and possessing many components, it couldn't be drawn by hand, and was best suited to CG. I[?] did express the opinion that it might end up being like the World's Fair pavilion [17]. The final result tended a bit towards being "art," but I thought it was good.

「１７」１９７０年大阪で開催された万国博覧会では、当時の若手建築家グループが提唱「メタボリズム（新陳代謝）」と呼ばれる建築思想にのったり先鋭的なデザインのパビリオンが多く作られた。黒川紀章の設計による東芝IHI館はその典型で、黒い鉄製の正三角錐ユニットを連結した構造をとっていた。

[17] A number of radically-designed pavilions in the 1970 Osaka World's Fair were created according to an architectural school of thought called "Metabolism" which had been put forth by a then-young group of architects. The Toshiba IHI pavilion, designed by Kisho Kurokawa, was a typical example, a structure of linked tetrahedral units made of black iron.

第７使徒のデザインは二転三転してます。最初は『序』の作業中に先行してokamaさんにデザインを頼んでいました。発注はまだスタジオもできていない、相当早い時期でしたね。とにかく自由なイメージで、いくつも描いてもらい、そのレスポンスでのやり取りをしましたね。早すぎてまだ僕の中でも『新劇場版』のビジュアルイメージがまるで固まっていないころの作業だったので、okamaさんにはとにかく描いてもらいました。その後、２号機の登場は海上の使徒を相手に空中からダイブ、という段取りが決まり、水上にいる使徒、あまり動かさないで済む感じの、イメージというか発注内容が決まってきた感じです。ここは２号機で作画の手間を食うので、使徒は最初からCGでいこうと決めてました。けどokamaさんの使徒のテイストがうまくまとまらないうちに『序』で忙しくなり、そっちの作業は自然停止してしまった感じです。

The design of the seventh angel changed repeatedly. When we were first doing work on "Prelude," I requested a design in advance from okama-san. The studio was not yet ready for commissions [?]; this was at a considerably early stage. Anyway, I had him make many drawings with no predetermined image, and then we would go back and forth in response to them. As, at this stage in the work, it was so early that the visual image of the new films had yet to fully solidify in my mind, I had okama-san just draw for me. Afterwards, we had a plan in place where Unit-02 would be introduced by diving from mid-air to battle an angel in the water. So, an image of, or commission for, an aquatic angel that we could get away with not having move very much was decided upon. Since [depicting] Unit-02 here would use up our sakuga-drawing time, I decided from the beginning to do the angel in CG. However, before the "taste" of okama-san's angel could really come together, I became busy with "Prelude," and that [earlier] work seemed to spontaneously come to an halt.

で、『序』の初号後、『破』の作業再開時に、そのシーンの担当の小松田君に「コンテ変えてもいいから、何かない？」とアイデアを募集したところ、コヤマ君との提案があり、okamaさんには申しわけなかったんですが、そっちにしようと。出番が少ない、いわば「やられメカ」なので、見た目のインパクトがほしかったんです。それが、あのデザイン案にはありました。あと、デザイン構成がCG向きなのが良かったんです。動きも含めて。

So, when work resumed on "Break" after the first "Prelude" screening, I told Komatsuda-kun, who was in charge of that scene, that we could change the storyboards, and I asked him if he had any ideas. At that point he and Koyama-kun presented their proposal, and although I apologized to okama-san for doing so, I decided to use it. As the angel would only appear briefly, as, so to speak, a "yarare mecha," I wanted it to have a visual impact. That was something the proposed design provided. In addition, it was good that the structure of the design, including the movement, was well-suited to CG.

－第８使徒、現場で落下使徒と呼ばれていたものは？

- What about the 8th angel, which you called the "falling angel" in production?

庵野 最初は渡部（隆）さんに頼んでいます。旧作のイメージを残しつつ変形を取り入れたデザインでした。球形から展開する仕掛けやアイデアはここで渡部さんから出てます。ただ、デザインがちと生物的すぎて、CG向きでない感じがしたんです。なんかこう幾何学的でシンプルに、かつエキサイティングに、やはり見た目のインパクトのあるものにしたいと。画としてはただ、落ちてくるだけですから、ビジュアルにそういう感じがほしかったんです。そういうのに向いてるのは誰だろうと考えたときに、やはりここは（前田）真宏しかいないなぁと。それで最終的なリライト作業を真宏に頼んだ感じです。スケジュールが合って本人もノリノリでやってくれて、良かったですね。彼の方からイカのように墨で黒いのが動いていくというビジュアルイメージや球の裏側で踊っている謎のヒトたちのデザインとかが出ってきました。妙な感じで常に働きもあって良かったです。

Anno: To start with, I asked (Takashi) Watabe-san [to do the design]. His design incorporated alterations while preserving the image of the original. The idea or conceit whereby the angel unfolds from a spherical shape was contributed by Watabe-san at this point. Only I felt his design was a bit too biological to be well-suited to CG. I wanted something with a strong visual impact, simple and geometrical as well as exciting. [Considered] as a [mental] image, it's [really] just [something] falling, so I wanted to have that feeling visually. When I thought, who would be well-suited for this, then I realized, of course, it could only be Mahiro (Maeda). It was great, as we had time on the schedule, and Mahiro attacked the work enthusiastically. He submitted things like a visual image of something the color of squid ink moving, and a design where mysterious human forms danced along the bottom of a sphere. I liked that there was a strange kind of continual motion.

最初の登場時はモザイク処理みたくして姿を見せないようにしておくのは、特報撮影時の思いつきだったと記憶しています。特報ではまだ使徒の姿ははっきり見せたくなかったんです。そのためにはどうしよう、という苦肉の策でしたが、結果として良かったですね。さらにA.T.フィールドでフタをしておくとか、それが展開して方向舵になるとかは、CGで実際に作業をしているときに上がりを見ながらその場で思いついたりして、参加していったアイデアです。

As I recall, the angel concealing itself when it first appears with a kind of mosaic effect was conceived during the making of the preview trailer. I didn't want to clearly show the forms of the angels in the trailer. So, not knowing what to do, that was a desperate measure, but the result was good. Furthermore, the covering of itself with the A.T. Field and the deployment of the field as a rudder were ideas that we came up with on the spot and incorporated while viewing the output during the CG work.

－最終に中から出ってくるヒト型は？

- What about the human form that finally emerges from within [the angel]?

庵野 初号機と絡むので、そこだけは作画で描くことにしてました。第１０使徒のデザインでスタジオに詰めていたあさり（よしとお）さんに「こっちもひとつ、どうですか」といっしょに頼んで、いくつかラフというか、アイデアスケッチをその場で描いてもらいました。発注はかなり最初のころだった気がします。そのアイデアスケッチを最終的に本田君にまとめてもらってます。その後に真宏の全体のデザインが上がって、それにデザインの整合性というか同一性を持たせる方向でもう一度本田君に描き直してもらって、画面の形になっていますね。

Anno: As it becomes entangled with Unit-01, I decided that it would be the only part [of the angel] to be drawn as sakuga. I asked (Yoshito) Asari-san, who was occupied in the studio with the 10th angel's design, if he would be able to do yet another task for me, and had him draw a few rough sketches or idea sketches on the spot. I have a feeling [this] commission was made relatively early on. I had Honda-kun make a final consolidation of the idea sketches. Later on, once Mahiro's full design was complete, I had Honda-kun redraw the design all over again in order to give it consistency or identity. That became the form [of the angel] we would put on the screen.

－あの使徒は、CGチームがだいぶ苦労したとうかがっています。

- I heard that the CG team had a great deal of difficulty with this angel.

庵野 なかなかうまくいかなかったですね。巨大感とか、働きとか、時間がなくて。イメージがなかなか定まらず、試行錯誤の連続でした。あそこら辺の作業は、まさに五里霧中で進めてましたね。これまた撮影時まで、あれこれやってました。

Anno: Things didn't go well at all. [There were difficulties with] the sense of enormity and the movement, and there was not enough time. We continually experimented with the image [of the angel] without it becoming settled. The work around that point went on in a total state of confusion. Again, we were doing a variety of things right up until satsuei.

－倒されるところを、ものすごく何度もやり直したそうですが。

- I heard that the part where [the angel is] defeated was redone an astonishing number of times.

庵野 あのカットは使徒が液化するまでの働きのパターンとか、使徒の大きさの出し方とか、そもそものレイアウトの取り方とか、いろんなことがうまくいかなくて、結局は時間切れで、最低限のところまで仕上げて公開となりました。良かったのは橋本（敬史）君の波の作画ぐらいです。なので、『２．２２』では再度、取り組んでいます。

Anno: There were a number of difficulties doing that cut - the movement of the angel up until it liquefies, conveying the size of the angel, the utilization of the initial layout - and in the end we ran out of time, so we finished the minimum possible before the film went to theaters. Just about the only good thing was (Takashi) Hashimoto-kun's sakuga of the wave. Accordingly, in 2.22 we tackled [that sequence] once again.

－洪水が押し寄せるのは特撮っぽいのですが。

－The onrush of the wave was tokusatsu-esque.

庵野 摩砂雪が画コンテで追加していたシーンですね。脚本にはない、あいつのアドリブカットなんですけど、特撮の水落しみたいで良かったですね。橋本君の作画もすごくうまくて、撮影処理なども良く、こだわりを感じるいいシーンですね。最初にラッシュを見たときに、これは寄りの抜きショットも必要、というか「観たい！」と思ったので、ノリター（橋本敬史の愛称）に頼んで１カット追加させてもらいました。TV版『日本沈没』札幌崩壊のシーンのような、豪快な勢いを目指してます。

Anno: That was a scene Masayuki added in storyboarding. It was a cut he "ad-libbed" that wasn't in the script, but the fact that it looked like the way water is poured out in tokusatsu was great. Hashimoto-kun's sakuga were excellent, the satsuei and so on also went well, and [it ended up being] a great scene that looks like the product of an uncompromising effort. When I first watched the rushes, I thought that it needed a close up shot - or should I say, that I wanted to see one! - so I asked Norita (Takashi Hashimoto's pet name) to add an additional cut. I was aiming at the tremendous energy of the scene where Sapporo collapses in the TV version of "Japan Sinks."

－第９使徒、つまりEVA３号機はデザインが変わっているのでしょうか。

－Did the design of the ninth angel - that is, of Eva Unit-03 - change?

庵野　いや、３号機のデザイン自体はほぼ同じだと思います。色をちょっと変えたぐらいですね。

Anno: Well, the design of Unit-03 itself [remained] just about the same, I think. We basically just changed the colors a little bit.

－３号機とのバトルでは、ダミープラグのデザインが新しいです。

－In the battle with Unit-03, the design of the dummy plug is new.

庵野　TVのときにはデザイン変えなどの余裕がまるでなかったので、椅子の後ろのレーザーディスクが回転し始めるのと画面全体のパラの色変えぐらいしかできませんでした。今回はせっかくなのでインテリアの後方デザインを変えたいと山下（いくと）君に頼んで。彼が言い出したのかな、後方をヒト型にしようというのは。僕はとにかくダミープラグには、CGでヌメッとした動きというかモーションの気色悪さとか、無機質な冷たさとか、それなのに中身に人間が入っているのかもみたいな生物的な感じとか、それらがゴッチャとした感じがほしかったんです。動きや色とかで細かく苦労しましたが、結果的はいい感じでしたね。

Anno: As there was no time at all to alter the design [of the plug] during the TV series, just about all that we could do was to have a laser disc start spinning in the back and change the color scheme with a full screen para overlay. This time we finally had the chance [to thoroughly change it], so I asked (Ikuto) Yamashita-kun to alter the design of the rear interior. He suggested that we give the rear interior a human form. I wanted the dummy plug to have the sense of a jumble of a number of elements: a slimy motion using CG, or a disgustingness to its motion; a robotic coldness, and yet a biological feeling that makes it seem like it might contain a human being. We took pains with the details of the movement, appearance, and so on, but the result was good.

－ダミーシステムが稼動してからは、外で何が起こっているのかシンジから見えないようになっていましたね。

－After the dummy system begins operating, it becomes impossible for Shinji to see what is going on outside.

庵野　そうですね。今回はシンジが何もできない感じを強調したかったので、手はレバーごと強制的に拘束され、モニタもダミーシステム専用に切り替わり、シンジはプラグ内に響く音で状況を推測するしかない、という状況にしました。自分の代わりにダミーが操縦席にいて、前方視界も遮られると。モニタにはダミーシステムから見た外部情報が映っているイメージですね。妙な画面で良かったです。

Anno: Right. This time I wanted to emphasize the sense that Shinji couldn't do anything, so we created a situation where his hands had been forcibly restrained by lever-like devices [?], his monitors had been completely appropriated for the usage of the dummy system, and he could only guess what was happening based on the noises reverberating inside the plug. I thought, the dummy taking his place in the cockpit, his forward field of vision will also be obstructed. The image on the monitors is information from the outside seen from the perspective of the dummy system. [Just] an unusual screen image was enough.

－ダミープラグそれ自身の設定も少し変えているのでしょうか。ゲンドウが意味ありげに触っているシーンがあるので。

－Has the settei of the dummy plug itself also changed a little? There is a scene where Gendo is suggestively touching [the dummy plug].

庵野　そうですね。これも本編には出てこないかと思いますが、設定は旧作と少し変更して考えます。

Anno: Right. I'm not sure it will come out in the work, but I am thinking in terms of a settei slightly altered from the original.

－第１０使徒、TVの第拾九話相当の使徒もだいぶデザインが変更されています。

－The design of the tenth angel, which corresponds to the angel from episode nineteen of the TV series, has also been considerably altered.

庵野　そうですね。あれも二転三転した結果です。もともとのデザインをベースに新しい使徒に変えたかったんです。『破』の使徒はすべて新しいデザインにしたかったので。そこでTVと同じく、あさりさんにスタジオに詰めてもらってラフをいろいろ描いてもらいました。それを本田君に設定としてリライトしてもらってます。

Anno: Right. That was also the result of repeated changes. I wanted to transform [the 14th angel from the TV series] into a new angel based on the original design, as I wanted new designs for all the angels in "Break". Accordingly, just like with the TV series, I had Asari-san drawing various rough sketches [of the angel's design] in the studio. I had Honda-kun revise those into settei.

顔の部分だけTVと同じなのは、やっはり、あの顔がいいだろうと。これは同じ使徒かなって旧作を知っているお客さんを一瞬ミスリードするところからスタートして、どんどん変えていた方が面白いんじゃないか、ということですね。あさりさん、マッキー、僕で打ち合わせたときにそういったアイデアが出てました。

Only the face remained identical to the TV version, as the face, I thought, was good, after all. The idea was that it would be more interesting to start by misleading the audience members who knew the previous work into thinking for a moment that this was the same angel [as before], and then rapidly transform it. The idea came up at a meeting between Asari-san, Makki, and myself.

－変形したり、触手が伸びたりするのも、あさりさんならではのアイデアです。

－The transforming, the growing of the tentacles, and so on, is an idea characteristic of Asari-san.

庵野　そうですね。諸々、基本はあさりさんから出たアイデアだったと思います。以前とは似て非なるものを目指したので、あさりさんもずいぶんと悩んでました。

Anno: Yeah. I believe that the foundation, and many other things, were ideas that came from Asari-san. As we were aiming at something that would appear the same as before but be in fact different, Asari-san was greatly troubled [by the difficulty of it].

－鶴巻さんに取材したとき、パタパタの仕掛けはTVの企画書からあったネタなのに、なぜ変えたんだろうと言ってました。

－When I interviewed Tsurumaki-san, he said that the "pata-pata" [sound of paper fluttering; i.e. the paper arms] conceit was material that came from the proposal for the TV series, and he wasn't sure why it was changed [in the film].

庵野　あのインパクトは、やはり一発芸だろうと思ったからです。もともとTVシリーズの企画書のときに出していたキューブが変形してパタパタとなる「折り紙状使徒」が最初のイメージでした。あと、それがつながってメビウスリングになるとか、企画時には考えてましたね。ただ、当時のTVシリーズの制作環境では、とてもそんな描写はできませんでした。なので、実は最初から企画書用のデザインだったんです。けれど、そのパタパタのアイデアだけはどこかで使おうと。で、最強の使徒ということでここで使うしかないなと、第拾九話に。メビウスリングはかなり単純化して第弐拾参話に持っていきました。それでも、当時ようやく簡単な３DCGのモデルを作画のガイドに使えるようになったからできたことです。

Anno: That was because I thought that its impact was, in the end, likely a one-time thing. Originally, at the time of the series proposal, the initial image was an "origami angel," a cube that would change shape, going "pata-pata." Then, it would link up and form a moebius strip, and so on. That was what we were thinking during [the initial] planning. However, in the production environment of a television series at that time, that sort of depiction was very much impossible. So, that really was a design used in the series proposal that existed from the beginning. However, I intended to at least use the "pata-pata" idea somewhere. So, for episode 19, I thought that, as this is the most powerful angel, I have to use it here. The moebius strip [idea] was considerably simplified and brought over to episode 23. But, we were able to do it at that time because we were finally able to use simple 3D CG models as guides for the sakuga.

使徒のあのパタパタはよくできていたので、ビジュアルとしても捨て難しかったんですが、今回は変化を求めていたので、あえて違う攻撃方法にした感じです。

The "pata-pata" [element] of the angel was really well done, so it was hard to abandon it, as a visual [element] as well [as a design concept]. But I feel like I took the risk of switching to a different method of attack because I was searching for change.

－零号機を食ってしまうという新展開も、シナリオ段階で考えられたことですか。

－Was the new development where [the angel] devours Unit-00 also something you conceived during the initial scenario-writing stage?

庵野　そうですね。最初のプロット段階で初号機が使徒を捕食する、という話はなくなっていました。『新劇場版』では、企画当初から「活動限界がきて動くなくなり第１０の使徒に取り込まれそうになる初号機、シンジを助けるためにレイが使徒と零号機を無理やり融合させ、自爆してしまう」という流れだったんです。脚本の第５稿まではその段取りで書かれていますね。それが第７稿からは使徒が零号機を捕食するという流れに変わりました。レイから自主的に融合するのではなく、使徒から捕食され、強制的に取り込まれてしまう方が自然な感じなんですよね。ずいぶん時間がたつまで、そのアイデアに行き着くませんでした。なんでそのときまで思いつかなかったんだろうかと、己の才能のなさを嘆きました。

Anno: Well, the storyline where Unit-01 devours the angel was no longer present at the earliest stage of the plot. For the new movies, from the earliest stage of planning there was a conception where "Unit-01 will reach its operational limit, cease moving, and nearly become absorbed by the tenth angel; in order to save Shinji, Rei will forcibly unite Unit-00 with the angel and self-destruct." The script was written according to that conception up until the fifth draft. That changed from the seventh draft on to a conception where the angel devoured Unit-00. It seemed more natural that, rather than deliberately fusing with the angel, Rei would be devoured by the angel and absorbed against her will. I didn't arrive at that idea until a great deal of time had passed. I lamented my lack of talent [afterwards], wondering why I hadn't thought of it before then.

－それはなぜだったんですか。

－Why hadn't you?

庵野　まあ、リツコのセリフにあったように「有り得ない」ことだったんです。僕の中で作っていた設定としてですね。でもそんなのはいいから、こっちの方がいいなと。設定はそれに合わせてまた考え直せばいいやと(笑）。何が大事かというと「使徒がエヴァを捕食する」状況の面白さでしたね。

Anno: Well, it was as Ritsuko's line expresses it, something impossible. [Impossible] in terms of the settei in my mind. But I thought that was good, so it was better this way. I thought, I can just rethink the settei to conform with it (laughs). What was important was the appeal of the circumstance of the angel devouring the Eva.

－鶴巻さんは、取り込まれた後のデザインを戦隊シリーズ女幹部にようにしたかったと、そんな話もされてましたが。

－Tsurumaki-san also said something about wanting to make the design after the absorption resemble a Sentai Series villainess.

庵野　それを画面にするとなんだか漫画になりすぎてしまうかなと。中途半端にヒトの体がついててバランスを取ってしまうと、記号的なセルアニメの表現では、大きなヒトそのものにしか見えなくなると感じたんです。実写だとまだやりようがあると思いますが、それはアニメでは難しいかなと。そこを何とかするだけの時間も手間もなかったし。それに加えて小松田君が「女を殴るのは許せない」と言ってたのも大きな理由です。「設定的に女性ではないにしても、女性にしか見えないものを主人公の男が殴ったりする。それを僕は演出できない、描けません」と強烈な拒絶反応があったんです。「確かに、ここまで拒絶人がいるのは良くないな」と。で、修正稿を重ねて今のデザインになって、色指定でまた基本色をどうするか、色分けをどうするかであれこれあって、ようやく今の形に落ち着きました。

Anno: I thought, if we put it on screen, it would be a little too much [like] a manga. I felt that, if it has a vaguely human body and balances itself, in cel anime, a symbolic [means of] expression, it won't be seen as anything but a giant human being. I thought that, if this was live action, there would be a way to do it, but it's difficult in anime. We didn't have the time or resources to do something with it. On top of that, Komatsuda-kun saying that he wouldn't allow a woman to be beaten [in the film] was a major reason. He had a strong negative reaction, saying that, even if it is not a woman in terms of the settei, the male protagonist will be striking something that can only appear [to the viewer] as a woman, and that he was unable to direct or depict that. I thought that it certainly isn't good if we have a person rejecting [the design] to this extent. So, with accumulated revisions, it became the current design. In color coordination, there were still a variety of issues concerning what to do about base colors and what to do about irowake. Finally, it reached its current form.

Interesting stuff as always! Thanks, Number-kun! :)

I think my favorite part of these interviews is hearing about the changes from draft to draft, the creative process is always fun.

EDIT: I'm curious, who's the Interviewer? He/she seems personally familiar with Anno based on the previous interview parts (eg: seeing the rough version of the film alongside Anno and the others).

Thank you very much for translating !

Glad you're back Numbers-kun. We missed you, or at least I did (it's not just the translations! It's also your rugged good looks and boyish sense of humor!).

As usual, I'm adding this to http://www.gwern.net/docs/2010-crc

I thought that the image of the dragon king's palace was interesting, and that I would try creating an angel along the lines of that impression.

? I'm familiar with the Japanese/Chinese folklore using the dragon kin's palace, but I have no idea what connection to Kitoh, Bokurano, or Narutaru there is.

The design of the seventh angel changed repeatedly. When we were first doing work on "Prelude," I requested a design in advance from okama-san. The studio was not yet ready for commissions [?]; this was at a considerably early stage. Anyway, I had him make many drawings with no predetermined image, and then we would go back and forth in response to them. As, at this stage in the work, it was so early that the visual image of the new films had yet to fully solidify in my mind, I had okama-san just draw for me. Afterwards, we had a plan in place where Unit-02 would be introduced by diving from mid-air to battle an angel in the water. So, an image of, or commission for, an aquatic angel that we could get away with not having move very much was decided upon. Since [depicting] Unit-02 here would use up our sakuga-drawing time, I decided from the beginning to do the angel in CG. However, before the "taste" of okama-san's angel could really come together, I became busy with "Prelude," and that [earlier] work seemed to spontaneously come to an halt.

Is 'okama-san' not supposed to be capitalized?

The idea or conceit whereby the angel unfolds from a spherical shape was contributed by Watabe-san at this point. Only I felt his design was a bit too biological to be well-suited to CG. I wanted something with a strong visual impact, simple and geometrical as well as exciting.

A little disappointing. Wasn't CG supposed to have caught up by now? But apparently it's still a limiting factor...

(And another mention of _Japan Sinks_. Color me unsurprised.)

Only the face remained identical to the TV version, as the face, I thought, was good, after all. The idea was that it would be more interesting to start by misleading the audience members who knew the previous work into thinking for a moment that this was the same angel [as before], and then rapidly transform it. The idea came up at a meeting between Asari-san, Makki, and myself.

At least they're doing a *little* surprising...

－When I interviewed Tsurumaki-san, he said that the "pata-pata" [sound of paper fluttering; i.e. the paper arms] conceit was material that came from the proposal for the TV series, and he wasn't sure why it was changed [in the film].

Really? I don't remember this from the Proposal...

－Tsurumaki-san also said something about wanting to make the design after the absorbtion resemble a Sentai Series villainess

Italics? I've heard of the 'Super Sentai Series', of course, but no show called 'Sentai Series'.

On top of that, Komatsuda-kun saying that he wouldn't allow a woman to be beaten [in the film] was a major reason. He had a strong negative reaction, saying that, even if it is not a woman in terms of the settei, the male protagonist will be striking something that can only appear [to the viewer] as a woman, and that he was unable to direct or depict that. I thought that it certainly isn't good if we have a person rejecting [the design] to this extent.

Hah. But no, suicide, mind-rape, masturbation, cloning, murder - all that's fine! Just so long as no woman is *beaten*. Oh you people.

Overall, not the most interesting segment, but the monster fans will be very pleased at the 'inside baseball' on the design & development of the Angels.

gwern wrote:Really? I don't remember this from the Proposal...

I believe the paper angel is this illustration in the proposal:

http://wiki.evageeks.org/File:Proposal_07_apostolos.jpg

ETA: there was a bit of a description later:

http://wiki.evageeks.org/images/4/41/Proposal_31_battles.jpg

I guess the description wasn't translated. That certainly wasn't what I was expecting it to look like, but now that I see it, I can see why one might call it paper instead of wings or tentacles or something.

gwern wrote:? I'm familiar with the Japanese/Chinese folklore using the dragon kin's palace, but I have no idea what connection to Kitoh, Bokurano, or Narutaru there is.

This seems from the context to be a reference to something in Narutaru (meaning, I think, the Narutaru manga). I haven't read the manga, or even seen the anime, so I'm not really sure what; I may have misinterpreted it.

gwern wrote:Is 'okama-san' not supposed to be capitalized?

You can actually see that, in the Japanese, 'okama' was written in English without being capitalized. So, I just left it as it was.

gwern wrote:Italics? I've heard of the 'Super Sentai Series', of course, but no show called 'Sentai Series'.

I'll change this.

gwern wrote:A little disappointing. Wasn't CG supposed to have caught up by now? But apparently it's still a limiting factor...

Well, it's CG that needs to be integrated with cel animation from a country that's not the U.S. If ILM was doing CG for Anno's cel animated movies, I'm sure this wouldn't be unfathomable.

This does explain why Anno reverted back to cel animation for the 10th Angel at the end of 2.22. I have a hard time imagining that more biological looking Angel in limited Japanese CG, especially when it takes on a human female form.

1731298478 wrote:This seems from the context to be a reference to something in Narutaru (meaning, I think, the Narutaru manga). I haven't read the manga, or even seen the anime, so I'm not really sure what; I may have misinterpreted it.

Now that you mention it, I recall that when I watched the _Narutaru_ anime, they were calling the monsters 'dragon child' or dragons. Googling I don't see anything about their having a father with a palace, and thinking more about it, I'm not sure why Anno would be interested in architecture in a segment all about monster design. Maybe that's the name of a specific dragon in _Narutaru_?

1731298478 wrote:This seems from the context to be a reference to something in Narutaru (meaning, I think, the Narutaru manga). I haven't read the manga, or even seen the anime, so I'm not really sure what; I may have misinterpreted it.

All of those creatures in Narutaru were called "Dragons". Though off the top of my head, I'm not sure what's being referred to by the "palace".

gwern wrote:Hah. But no, suicide, mind-rape, masturbation, cloning, murder - all that's fine! Just so long as no woman is *beaten*. Oh you people.

Komatsuda's being silly (good thing he wasn't on EoE!) but I don't see how he's responsible for everything that's happened in the series. I'm also a tad fuzzy on the changes -- it's still visually a giant woman. Perhaps the face was altered? If so, it was for the best, and explains Komatsauda's objection: Unit-01 would be slugging a woman's mug to open their fight. I can kinda see how that might be off-putting.

Warren Peace wrote:Komatsuda's being silly (good thing he wasn't on EoE!) but I don't see how he's responsible for everything that's happened in the series.

Who said I was talking about *just* the series & EoE? :) Cloning and mind-rape apply to 2.0, Rei II's suicide would have applied to some of the drafts IIRC, and arguably the 'woman' in question is murdered (by Shinji). So there was plenty else for him to object to, and 3.0 and 4.0 haven't even come out yet!

suicide, mind-rape, masturbation, cloning, murder

"Mind-rape" is complete fan-wank at this point. Some fans really, really want it to be true for some reason, but we have no idea what went on in Unit-03 in the film itself. Calling Rei's sacrifice a "suicide" (if that's what you're doing) seems reductive to say the least. Cloning is implied enough to be virtually canon. "Masturbation" made me think you were mainly reaching back into the old series.

I'm not interested in defending the man that much (again, he's being silly), but one can object to visual presentation without objecting to content. You can be fine with, say, stories involving gun violence, but think depictions of brain splatter go too far. Komatsuda seems OK with fictional violence against women but doesn't like it to be graphic.