What do you watch with? (Dub or Sub?)

This is a forum for general conversations and casual discussions about all things Evangelion. Chit-chatty conversations like "Pen-Pen is adorable" or "Which Eva kicks the most ass?" also belong here.

Moderator: Board Staff

Aiko Heiwa
Salt 'n' Genki
Salt 'n' Genki
User avatar
Age: 24
Posts: 2442
Joined: Aug 06, 2011
Location: Florida
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Aiko Heiwa » Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:50 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:No, no it doesn't. Not by far. Listening to the commentary gives us all the reason in the world as to why.

I'm talking about the dub itself, not what happened during production.
This signature officially sponsored by The Holy Church of Aiko Heiwa® since 2 December 2011
Avatar: Minerva

gatotsu911
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 1646
Joined: Dec 17, 2010
Location: US of East Coast
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby gatotsu911 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:12 am

View Original PostMightyWings wrote:I got a chuckle out of that. I don't see the big deal though because Whites play Japanese roles all of the time. I guess that White is closer to Japanese and Japanese do hate Black people, but as long as an actor is only providing a voice and remaining in character, I don't see the issue.

The problem with Keith Burgess as Hyuga is less that he's black than that he's a horrible actor whose voice is completely unfitting for the character. He's accented, he slurs his lines and he can't emote for shit. There's no excuse for that. There are plenty of talented black voice actors in LA - including ones who can play non-black characters with ease - and Keith Burgess isn't one of 'em.

(And the "technically the characters are Asian" argument doesn't really hold water. If all of the characters in the show spoke in a "neutral" American accent - as most American voice actors tend, by default, to do - and then one of them had an overwhelmingly strong Southern accent for no apparent reason, you'd notice, wouldn't you? It's about consistency. Now if you want to talk about my pipe dream of seeing a Samurai Champloo dub with an all black cast and characters speaking in different African American dialects, we can do that.)

That said, I do agree that fans tend to focus obsessively on the faults in EoE's dub to the exclusion of the many things it does well. It's uneven, no doubt, but it sure as hell ain't all bad.
Last edited by gatotsu911 on Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
"I am shocked, SHOCKED, that a regular on an Evangelion forum would be a self-hating mess." - Tarnsman, paraphrased

"Jesus Christ, why are we even still talking about this shit?" - The Eva Monkey, summing up Evageeks in a sentence

Avatar: The Frozen Flame ~ Where Angels Lose Their Way

Aiko Heiwa
Salt 'n' Genki
Salt 'n' Genki
User avatar
Age: 24
Posts: 2442
Joined: Aug 06, 2011
Location: Florida
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Aiko Heiwa » Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:14 am

View Original Postgatotsu911 wrote:The problem with Keith Burgess as Hyuga is less that he's black than that he's a horrible actor whose voice is completely unfitting for the character. He's accented, he slurs his lines and he can't emote for shit. There's no excuse for that. There are plenty of talented black voice actors in LA - including ones who can play non-black characters with ease - and Keith Burgess isn't one of 'em.

That said, I do agree that fans tend to focus obsessively on the faults in EoE's dub to the exclusion of the many things it does well. It's uneven, no doubt, but it sure as hell ain't all bad.

My main problem is with Black Hyuga is that Burgess doesn't sound remotely close to Matt Greenfield.
This signature officially sponsored by The Holy Church of Aiko Heiwa® since 2 December 2011
Avatar: Minerva

gatotsu911
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 1646
Joined: Dec 17, 2010
Location: US of East Coast
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby gatotsu911 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:17 am

Well, that too. Although if Burgess had voiced Hyuga from the start it would have been just as much of a problem.
"I am shocked, SHOCKED, that a regular on an Evangelion forum would be a self-hating mess." - Tarnsman, paraphrased

"Jesus Christ, why are we even still talking about this shit?" - The Eva Monkey, summing up Evageeks in a sentence

Avatar: The Frozen Flame ~ Where Angels Lose Their Way

Bagheera
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 18626
Joined: Oct 15, 2010

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Bagheera » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:12 am

View Original PostAngel of Will wrote:Besides Kheel's voice being unexpected, and Hyuga's voice being VERY unexpected, the whole thing was quite good.


No, it wasn't. In addition to those miscasting issues there were a number of mistranslations (which changes the reading of the plot in a couple of important ways), and the vocal and audio tracks were altered at several points (and in some cases needlessly embellished). AWL even admits to the latter in the commentary.

You may not have had a problem with it, but it was not "quite good" by any reasonable standard. Yes, there are other, much more awful dubs out there, but that doesn't make EoE's good. And that's before you get into subjective issues like Grant's and Keith's performances, which are a whole other matter.
Last edited by Bagheera on Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

gatotsu911
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 1646
Joined: Dec 17, 2010
Location: US of East Coast
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby gatotsu911 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:21 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:AWL even admits to the latter in the commentary.

Is there anything to admit to? They're not exactly discreet.

Anyway, we ought to start keeping tally of every time the "Dub is terrible!" vs. "Dub is good!" bitchfights come up somewhere in the forum.
"I am shocked, SHOCKED, that a regular on an Evangelion forum would be a self-hating mess." - Tarnsman, paraphrased

"Jesus Christ, why are we even still talking about this shit?" - The Eva Monkey, summing up Evageeks in a sentence

Avatar: The Frozen Flame ~ Where Angels Lose Their Way

Kendrix
Defender of Puppy Boy
Defender of Puppy Boy
User avatar
Age: 26
Posts: 5127
Joined: Jul 27, 2010
Location: Germany
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Kendrix » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:41 am

It kind of depends for me...
I tend to use the version I have on my harddisk, which is the original with subtitles because I also use it for referencing stuff from discussions here(for example, when you wanna argue with the intonation some Character used to say a particular thing, you'd better make sure they sounded that way in the original.), but generally, I also like to watch it with the German dub since it's quite good (Gendo's voice actor, in particular, is just perfect for the job), aside from the fact that they failed to pronounce "Asuka" - before I got it on my PC, I think I was just as likely to watch it in German than in Japanese. As for Rebuild, I mostly stick to the original because I miss Misato's old voice actress/the quality has somewhat decreased here. I might be a bit biased against Mari's VA because she pretty much ruined Mariko from Elfen Lied for me.
(I DID watch it all in English at least once, though, to know what everbody in this forum was talking about.)
I have made it my policy to check the out the original of any show at least once, since it's, well, the original, but generally, I don't mind dubs.

It's just that the quality of any German anime dub is inversely proportial to its marketability/intended target audience, because the more mainstream something is (For example, Naruto, One Peace, Inu Yasha etc.) the more likely it is that a certain TV station will cut it to bits and prevent a decent version from being made.
(IT's not just censorship, they really just didn't care - for example, they had Itachi from Naruto (who was 17 when he first appeared) voiced by a fifty-year old, and gave Sesshoumaru and Naraku from Inu Yasha unbearably high, narcistic/effiminate voices because apparently, that's what a comic vilain has to sound like. Never mind that they do have some character depht, or that the original voice actors had notiriously deep voices. )
Make Clone Love Not Clone War

Angel of Will
Tunniel
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 199
Joined: Mar 27, 2012
Location: Snow-Ville

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Angel of Will » Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:27 am

To Bagheera; I'm thinking of quality of performance. I didn't take up mistranslations as an issue, since when I looked for things that I found odd (plot-wise) in the dub compared to the sub, it ended up being virtually the same thing- unless the sub was mistranslated as well, so unless that's the case, I don't see any plot points being altered by mistake. (If you want to take me up on it, just link me to a thread that's already discussed it instead of spending the effort of pointing them out yourself- I don't want to be a bother.)

As for changing sound effects- really, I think that's a heavily subjective matter. If it doesn't negatively impact a scene, then that doesn't make it any worse. If I flip back and forth between Jap and Eng, and an explosion sounds a bit different, I'm not going to jump on it and cry bloody murder. It might be unnecessary, but that doesn't make it bad.

I consider these standards reasonable. The biggest impression are the performances- and like I said, aside the couple casting issues, I can't imagine them being done any better. In some cases, I found the English deliveries more fitting than the Japanese. So phenomenal? No. Excellent? Nah. Quite good? In my book, sure.
"Reality exists in a place unknown, and dreams exist within reality. And Truth lies in your heart."

Bagheera
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 18626
Joined: Oct 15, 2010

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Bagheera » Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:22 pm

View Original PostAngel of Will wrote:To Bagheera; I'm thinking of quality of performance.


I think a lot of them really sucked, but that's a subjective matter so I didn't go there. The technical problems are bad enough.

I didn't take up mistranslations as an issue, since when I looked for things that I found odd (plot-wise) in the dub compared to the sub, it ended up being virtually the same thing- unless the sub was mistranslated as well, so unless that's the case, I don't see any plot points being altered by mistake. (If you want to take me up on it, just link me to a thread that's already discussed it instead of spending the effort of pointing them out yourself- I don't want to be a bother.)


There are a few that are significant. There's a list here, but you can do a thread search and find any number of threads on the topic.

As for changing sound effects- really, I think that's a heavily subjective matter.


Not just effects, dialogue. When the changes alter the meaning of a scene that's a problem. When they push the bad guys from scary military dudes into over-the-top caricatures that's also a problem.

I consider these standards reasonable. The biggest impression are the performances- and like I said, aside the couple casting issues, I can't imagine them being done any better. In some cases, I found the English deliveries more fitting than the Japanese. So phenomenal? No. Excellent? Nah. Quite good? In my book, sure.


Then I would say you have pretty low standards. Several of the key performances in EoE (mainly Asuka and Misato) were bad enough to make my teeth grind. As I've said before I'm not that fussy about dubs, and in some cases I even prefer the dub version of a show to the sub. But between bad direction, spotty performances, shallow readings of the characters (Spike Spencer and Tiffany Grant are particularly bad in this regard), and unnecessary FX changes I can't call NGE's English dub good, and EoE's is even worse.

This isn't just weeabooism at work here; when you compare NGE's dub to others in the industry the best you can say about it is that it's okay. Part of that's just due to its age (it was released at the beginning of the anime wave in the U.S., so the industry was still finding its legs at the time), but even with that in mind it's still somewhere in the low-average range. The film geeks around here could explain the whys of it in more detail.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

Angel of Will
Tunniel
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 199
Joined: Mar 27, 2012
Location: Snow-Ville

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Angel of Will » Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:38 pm

Hm. I'll end by mentioning that for the first half of the original series, the english dub was clearly inferior in terms of performances. The actors were still warming up to their characters 2/3s through. The Japanese dub had a subtle care for delivery throughout that wasn't present at all up until the latter part of the English dub. But when it comes to the final third, (including End of Evangelion), I see them as having incarnated their roles.

It's hard to talk past this point, since we get into personal expectations and impressions* (which is what makes dub vs. sub debates so incongruous and nasty) but quantifiable things like faithfulness are factors that be objectively appreciated/evaluated rather easily. I'll check out that thread since I am interested.

*Not that those expectations and impressions can't be broken down and laid out and argued for, but heck, that would take the care of a greater essay.
"Reality exists in a place unknown, and dreams exist within reality. And Truth lies in your heart."

AR-99
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Posts: 1735
Joined: Jul 16, 2012
Location: Grünthal

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby AR-99 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:32 pm

Subs as a universal preference.
Go with God, and Fight Like the Devil 1356
Curator of: Evangelion Virtual MuseumCold SteelMFC
Sanity is no option for a collector. - Tolwyn • I just love eva so much that I figured it's worth investing in. - Paranoid

Justacrazyguy
Donor
Donor
User avatar
Age: 24
Posts: 2482
Joined: Jul 06, 2012
Location: Portugal, Kingdom of Al-Gharbh
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Justacrazyguy » Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:47 pm

Subs, unless I´m watching Dragon Ball Z, in that situation I watch it with the portuguese dub. Why? It´s a source of endless laugther.
Nearly all teenage boys are dumbfucks-Xard

É altura de se tornarem pessoas interessantes.- My Classic Culture Teacher

MYANIMELIST-http://myanimelist.net/profile/Justacrazyguy

Natsuka_Chie
Shamshel
Shamshel
User avatar
Age: 28
Posts: 272
Joined: Jun 18, 2009
Location: Portugal
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Natsuka_Chie » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:45 pm

^I second that :hahaha:
Asuka's not a bitch, she just denies her innocence in a bitchy way.
Sites I'm in: Deviantart|XFire
Quotes:
"Yesterday, I had the most TERRIFYIN' experience! ...Last night, I was all alone in my room... when outta nowhere... CAME THE SMELL OF A FART THAT WASN'T MINE!"
"The things I possess are my life and soul. I'm a vessel for my heart"
"God isn't home. He's on vacation at Vegas."

"Don't forget. Always, somewhere, someone is fighting for you. As long as you remember them, you're not alone."

Justacrazyguy
Donor
Donor
User avatar
Age: 24
Posts: 2482
Joined: Jul 06, 2012
Location: Portugal, Kingdom of Al-Gharbh
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Justacrazyguy » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:23 pm

View Original PostNatsuka_Chie wrote:^I second that :hahaha:


"Parece uma placa de contraplacado!"

Also, let´s not forget Trunks voice...
Nearly all teenage boys are dumbfucks-Xard

É altura de se tornarem pessoas interessantes.- My Classic Culture Teacher

MYANIMELIST-http://myanimelist.net/profile/Justacrazyguy

Natsuka_Chie
Shamshel
Shamshel
User avatar
Age: 28
Posts: 272
Joined: Jun 18, 2009
Location: Portugal
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Natsuka_Chie » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:49 pm

And Bubu singing Ruth Marlene :chuckles:
Asuka's not a bitch, she just denies her innocence in a bitchy way.
Sites I'm in: Deviantart|XFire
Quotes:
"Yesterday, I had the most TERRIFYIN' experience! ...Last night, I was all alone in my room... when outta nowhere... CAME THE SMELL OF A FART THAT WASN'T MINE!"
"The things I possess are my life and soul. I'm a vessel for my heart"
"God isn't home. He's on vacation at Vegas."

"Don't forget. Always, somewhere, someone is fighting for you. As long as you remember them, you're not alone."

Love Not Given Lightly
Embryo
Age: 22
Posts: 28
Joined: Jun 07, 2012

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Love Not Given Lightly » Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:50 am

For most of the show, I do dub. But for the last few episodes and EoE I switch to sub for some reason.
There are no stupid ideas, only stupid executions.

Chroma
Sachiel
User avatar
Age: 26
Posts: 224
Joined: Aug 08, 2011
Location: Present Day...Present Time! HAHAHA
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Chroma » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:57 pm

I watched EVA with subs.

Generally, I watch anything foreign with subs, anime or not. I just think it's right to watch something in its original language, and I'm a fast reader so subs aren't a problem.

FLCL and Cowboy Bebop are the only anime that I've watched with the dub, just because they're insanely, insanely good dubs.
Insignificance is bliss

Blue Monday
Angel
Angel
User avatar
Age: 31
Posts: 3363
Joined: Jun 17, 2012
Location: Earth-33

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Blue Monday » Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:58 pm

View Original PostLove Not Given Lightly wrote:For most of the show, I do dub. But for the last few episodes and EoE I switch to sub for some reason.

Well, the EOE English dub is atrocious so that could explain it, haha.

When the series first aired on TV here, it was with the English dub so I've always just rolled with that - Though, like the above post, I also usually watch anything 'foreign' in subtitles mostly.

Eva is a rare exception.

Alaska Slim
Frigus Ignoramus
Frigus Ignoramus
User avatar
Posts: 4951
Joined: Oct 08, 2007
Location: The Land Up Over
Gender: Male

Dub-ness. B/

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Alaska Slim » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:48 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:This isn't just weeabooism at work here; when you compare NGE's dub to others in the industry the best you can say about it is that it's okay.

As a whole, that's true enough, it was good for the time, but it's lacking now.

Still, I'd say there are moments in the Dub where the actors hit their stride, and that's what made it worth watching. Because I'm a native English speaker, hearing pivotal moments in the series done well in it has far more gravitas for me than when the same is done in Japanese.This is especially true for the DC edits, where the cast had a few more years to figure their characters out. An advantage even the Japanese cast didn't enjoy.


EoE though... yeah, kill it with fire.
"It's all fun and games till one of you gets my foot up your ass." - FofR, TrivialBeing.net Webmaster

"I blame teenage girls for everything." - Dr. Dave

"God is in his Heaven, and free men walk upon the Earth" - Rev. Robert Sirico, President of the Acton Institute

Ringworm128
Lilith
User avatar
Age: 24
Posts: 133
Joined: Jul 21, 2012
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Ringworm128 » Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:36 am

View Original PostJustacrazyguy wrote:"Parece uma placa de contraplacado!"

Also, let´s not forget Trunks voice...
I once watched a small clip of Yamcha fighting Tenshinhan and I have to say it was hilarious. Also you should check out the Serbian and Malaysian dubs of DBZ.


Return to “Evangelion Chit-Chat and General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests