Kimochi Warui

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:01 pm

Er I'm not talking about slapstick humor. She slapped him in 24'. I honestly would expect her to be out to kill him at that point if it bugged her.

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Postby cat42 » Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:03 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:...It's probably just as well she didn't end up leaving either of the lads embedded in a body-shaped crater in a concrete wall or whip a mallet out of hammer-space, or I'm not sure what that would have done to the argument.


Though she did hit him through the Eva holo-phone that was in only one episode...

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:
Her expression (and dialogue) indicates that she is less than happy with the enforced mental intimacy.

I dunno she's rarely straight forward about what's pissing her off. Shinji seems to think it's because they're alike and he's as close to being Asuka as anyone could ever be.
Asuka (voice):
But, if I have to be with you, I'd rather die!

Note the line that comes before that:
Women's voices (Misato, Rei, Asuka):
Do you want to be at ease? To feel at peace?
Do you want to become one with me?
To have our bodies and souls... become one.

Asuka (voice):
But, if I have to be with you, I'd rather die!



OH! Is this the scene where we see, sort of, a lot of flashing images with nude bodies and people having sex just slightly phased is so as to be all but unrecognizable? Is this scene clearer in the renewal version?

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Postby Mr. Tines » Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:17 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:Er I'm not talking about slapstick humor. She slapped him in 24'. I honestly would expect her to be out to kill him at that point if it bugged her.


The train-car scene is sandwiched between two scenes in which there is violence (kick, rather than kiss; furniture throwing and strangulation), a pause for exposition and more normal psychological hurt rather than expressed as metaphor-become-real.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:04 pm

True, tho it doesn't make her actions any less odd. You have to take Shinji's actions and inaction's into account as-well. After "If I can't have all of you, I don't want you at all!" Shinji replies "Then, be nice to me...". He's got an insight we don't and the information we get from him is very important to figuring out Asuka's motives. Even during the kiss retake she licks her lips in a sensual manor while berating him for not being able to understand her.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:13 pm

Ugh, all I know is, that whole sequence makes my head hurt. The only thing I have somewhat of an understanding of is the coffeepot scene. (I'll go into my take of that only if somebody's interested.)

btw, I think I posted this on another topic, but this one fan's theory I found interesting was how in the final scene, Shinji and Asuka are that beach together, which the fan took as going along with Kaji's line of men and women being on different shores, ie: because Shinji-kun and Asuka are there together, it means they've come to an understanding.

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:I used to wonder why she seemed to come lunging forward in that scene but there's the answer at the bottom. She didn't lunge forward she got pushed forward when he thrust upward into her. :shock:


:shock: .......Two words (say it with me now, people): Ooh, baby! :D /My ecchi...ness. ^^;

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:22 pm

Translation please!

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:27 pm

...Okay, that answers my question. ^^; I asked if you understand Japanese, then I said I know a little but I'm nowhere near good yet and that my Kanji sucks.
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Postby master0rolando » Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:07 am

i thought Shinji was the one licking his lips...damn...it went along with my "analysis of boys and girls" thing...even though girls are mean and put us down and what-not...we still want their approval...however, with this enlightenment...it still works...girls want us to approve of them even though they act like they dont care about it...
(why do you put on make-up in the morning?...think about that...)

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Postby Reichu » Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:21 am

master0rolando wrote:(why do you put on make-up in the morning?...think about that...)

...who does? I don't. Make-up can kiss my ass. Or better yet, it can just stay RIGHT... over ... there.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby Mr. Tines » Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:04 pm

@Reichu & BobBQ
Perhaps we should have a Japanese language forum alongside "Off-topic". At the very least I would suggest splitting off a topic from about Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:13 pm UT.

@Anonymous_Evafan
Despite the fact that both are talking mind-to-mind, I get the feeling that they are still capable of talking past each other, venting (leaking) their own long-held frustrations. In the replays, my interpretation is that they are remembering what happened and letting the sub-text hang out.

Asuka is undoubtedly horny (also choosy, as her spurning of all her school fan-mail showed); but that doesn't stop her also having the continuing background feeling that none of the slow, stupid, lesser mortals that surrounded her could follow her scintillating intellect.
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Postby Reichu » Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:33 pm

Reichu-initiated tangent split off to Fun with Japanese.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:11 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:@Anonymous_Evafan
Despite the fact that both are talking mind-to-mind, I get the feeling that they are still capable of talking past each other, venting (leaking) their own long-held frustrations. In the replays, my interpretation is that they are remembering what happened and letting the sub-text hang out.

Asuka is undoubtedly horny (also choosy, as her spurning of all her school fan-mail showed); but that doesn't stop her also having the continuing background feeling that none of the slow, stupid, lesser mortals that surrounded her could follow her scintillating intellect.

I agree with you that the flashbacks are being used to vent frustrations. That said it's clear they are interacting in those flashbacks, ie: Misato saying kissing isn't for kids when she wasn't there the first time around.
Image
She's not leaving anything for interpretation there. There's even frustration/bitterness in her voice when she says that. After it's said she stands there and waits for an answer, and when it isn't a yes she is sent reeling in rejection.
Image
Asuka:
Then, don't do anything.
Don't come near me anymore... Because all you ever do is hurt me.

ImageImage
The similarities are staggering. That indicates she was in-fact very serious. We get another indication that she meant it.
Image
Image
Last edited by Anonymous_Evafan on Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:30 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:35 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:She's not leaving anything for interpretation there.


Indeed. It is plain that she's telling him that he missed his chance, long ago.

Then we segue to the flashback of the time when her pining for the real object of her infatuation pushes her over the edge, because

Asuka:
Then, don't do anything.
Don't come near me anymore... Because all you ever do is hurt me.


is about, inter alia, when he tells her ham-fistedly that Kaji is dead, which is what metaphorically slays her (and ends her up in that bathtub where she works upon making it literal).
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:41 pm

Someday you'll have to sit down and explain your thought process in detail since no one seems to be able to follow it but you.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:44 pm

I really need to expand and update my old essay page on the subject. *sigh*
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:47 pm

Well I for one look forward to that. I'd love to understand where you're comming from.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:02 pm

I don't see it as Shinji having "missed his chance", I see it as Asuka telling Shinji he WILL miss his chance if he doesn't shape up/pay some freaking attention to her. ie: "dakara atashi o mite!"/"So, look at me!" (Of course, realtionships take work so she'd have to be willing to change her personality, too. It isn't a one-way street.) *cough* Read my eva fanfic! *cough* Link below where ff.net url is! /semi-blatent self-promotion

Tines-san, you ever think we'll EVER agree on anything? Then again, we're both Asuka fans, so that's good... :D
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:24 pm

All of the P3II scenes are linked together:
Child A:
Oh, here comes Mama!

Child B:
We have to go home now!

Child A:
Bye-bye!

Child A and B (laughing):
Mama... Mama!

(Shinji builds a pyramid (NERV headquarters) alone, and then destroys it... Crying, he starts to build again)

Child-Shinji mama-less leads to:
Asuka:
Jeeez! I get so pissed off whenever I look at you!

Shinji:
Because I'm like you...?

Child-Asuka (crying):
Mama!

Which ends with:
Asuka (sleep-talking):
Ma... ma...

Shinji (staring at Misato's cross):
Mama...?

Which leads to:
Misato (voice):
I wasn't able to become Shinji's mother after all...

Which ends with:
Asuka:
Aaahh... I wonder if I'll act like Misato when I grow up?

Which leads to:
(Shinji and Asuka in Misato's apartment)

Asuka:
Say... wanna kiss?..

Which ends with:
Shinji:
How can I understand... If you don't say anything?
You don't say anything... You don't talk to me...
How can I understand you? It's IMPOSSIBLE!!

Which leads to:
Rei:
Ikari, did you try to understand?

Shinji (sulking):
I tried...

Which ends with:
Asuka:
Idiot! I know you used me as jerk-off material.
Do it again like you always do... I'll even stand here and watch.
If I can't have all of you, I don't want you at all!

Shinji:
Then, be nice to me...

Asuka/Misato/Rei:
We are nice to you.

Shinji:
LIARS!! You're all just hiding behind a smile!
You just want to keep things ambiguous!

Rei:
Because the truth hurts us all... Because it's very, very distressing.

Shinji:
But ambiguity only makes me insecure.


Rei:
That's just an excuse...

Shinji:
But it makes me afraid... Afraid that I won't be needed again someday.
It makes me uneasy! It worries me! Let me hear your voice!
Interact with me!!
Care about me!!!

Which leads to:
(Shinji and Asuka in Misato's apartment - Asuka sitting dejectedly at table)

Shinji:
I want to help you in some way... and to be with you forever.

Asuka:
Then, don't do anything.
Don't come near me anymore... Because all you ever do is hurt me.

Each scene leads into the next. All of the retakes are them venting on each other. All legit interactions in the here and now.

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:34 pm

Ok it's looks like the previous part of this debate has finished. Both sides have been laid out and it's up to the individual reader to decide what makes the most sense. Guess it's time to move to the final phase. I've gone through my reasons for the Miyamura interview not making sense. So what the hell does it mean? This is where Shin-seiki's guiding principals come into play!
Shin-seiki wrote: (1) To understand NGE, the visuals are just as important as the dialogue, and (2) Everything in NGE should be taken at face value (by default, anyway).

Ah yes, a picture is worth a thousand words. We all know "kimochi warui" literally means "feeling" + "bad". Without a specified subject that makes it ambiguous as hell! Ah but wait, there is a specified subject for it! It's not spoken but it's there none-the-less:
Image
Glare + "Kimochi warui" = Shinji is making her "feel bad/negative". Hence the reason I like "You make me sick". No offence guys but "I feel sick" feels like a cop-out. It just doesn't seem Asuka.

Now that I've show what she's saying (I hope!), the only question left is why is she saying it? The visuals give us the clues we need to figure that out.
Image
Image
Bochan Bird and Mangle both translate it as "How pathetic". Pathetic/pitiful behavior is something she has taken issue with Shinji about many times.
Image
Image
Image
episode #10 Platinum wrote:Asuka:
If I were to warm up just my breasts,
do you think they'd grow a little bigger?

Shinji:
I wouldn't know anything about that!

Asuka:
What a boring guy.

episode #10 Platinum wrote:Asuka:
Hey, why don't you stop slurping that tea and say something!
You're a man, aren't you?

Shinji:
Actually, I kind of anticipated it would be like this.

Asuka:
And you've already given up?
How pathetic. Nothing's more useless than a housebroken male.

episode #10 LTP wrote:Asuka:
Hmm... Hey, you. Don't just drink tea.
Say something to her.
You're a man!

Shinji:
Oh, I kinda figured something like this would happen.

Asuka:
So you've already given up on the excursion?

Shinji:
Yeah.

Asuka:
Oh, no! That's pitiful! A tamed man is the worst type!

episode #16 Platinum wrote:Asuka:
That was HOT!

Shinji:
I'm sorry.

Asuka:
You always apologize right away, but do you actually feel sorry?!
It's like you apologize automatically so that you don't get yelled at!

Shinji (OFF):
I'm sorry.

Asuka (OFF):
Exactly like that. You're just fundamentally too self-deprecating!

Misato:
Now, now, that's just his way.

Asuka:
Just his way?! You're being too soft on him!
Haven't you been a little too soft on Shinji lately?

episode #16 LTP wrote:Asuka :
Eek!

Asuka :
Too hot!!

Shinji :
I'm sorry.

Asuka :
Grr... You're always begging. Do you really think you're wrong?

Shinji :
Hmm...

Asuka :
Shinji, it seems you apologize as a conditioned reflex to avoid
being scolded.

Shinji :
Ah, sorry...

Asuka :
Just like that. Basically, you're too self-punishing.

Misato :
Oh, oh. That's just Shin-chan's lifestyle.

Asuka:
It's easy for you to accept his lifestyle.
Lately, you've been too soft on Shinji, haven't you?

Ah don't you just love all of the translations for the show?I'm sure I could dig up some other sintuations along those lines, but I think you get the idea.

What does this have to do with anything?
Image
Image
Image
The glares look really similar don't they? The view is from different angles, but the eyes are angled the same in each. Same disdainful glare, thus same mindset. Conclusion Shinji's pathetic/pitiful crybaby display is "making her sick".

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Postby master0rolando » Sun Nov 12, 2006 4:02 am

i agree with the "missing chance" thing

thats an important lesson to learn...you gotta do it quick...most women decide if you a potential boyfriend or a just friend within 30 seconds of meeting you


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