Buddah H. Christ, calm down. We're both 90-year-old men here.

Deep breaths. Ten of them.

...

Eleven.

Shinji cares too much about other people than himself, i think it's because of the outcome of the affect/fact that his father abondoned him and, he always trys to not hurt/let other people down. he is happy when is praised, just like any normal kid would. I think Shinji is just a kid who lost his mother and abonded by father at a young age and going through puberty while living with 2 hot girls...

Shinji is an asshole because he cheated Yui out of her one moment in the spotlight. What a jackass.

Thread over.

Warren Peace wrote:Buddah H. Christ, calm down. We're both 90-year-old men here.

That's not how you spell Buddha. I'd contribute something more meaningful, but nothing else in my post has been refuted.

AuraTwilight wrote:Shinji is an asshole

Thread over.

Thread open again; continued from this discussion, following Ornette's suggestion.

SaltyJoe wrote:Rei's stance on things, or indeed, her very person didn't matter as much to Shinji as the idea that he has to save someone he thinks is close to him (which is something of a delusion, given that he knows almost nothing about Rei. He has some surface impressions, but that's it).

I wonder from where you got the impression that it's a delusion, Shinji and Rei were quite close, actually Nerv's staff (Maya and co.) expected that Rei would have tried to stop Shinji from leaving Nerv but she didn't do so because she respected Shinji's decision.
I also think that you're missing one important point: Rei answered to Shinji's desire (BTW, is there something wrong with desires?). Indeed she already gave up on her life when the Angel ate her but when Shinji asked for her hand, she decided to do so, she responded to his feelings and his (egoistic) desires.

SaltyJoe wrote:So yes, the threat was gone when Shinji started corediving for Rei. This doesn't make what he was doing automatically wrong, mind you, but it does infrom the audience a bit. "The hero keeps on pushing forward, despite the situation being resolved from a rational point of view".

Like you said the threat was gone but Shinji had no way to know that by trying the impossible with Rei he wasn't only going to put his human existence at risk, like Ritsuko said, but he could have started 3rd Impact as well.

SaltyJoe wrote:My hunch is that ultimately the contrast between Shinji's selfish clinging and Rei's pure love will come to a head in a scenario where Shinji breaks up with her, causing Rei the biggest trauma of her life.

It also depends on her balance between Gendo and Shinji, honestly there are many unknowns about this topic, including the fact that he'll "break up" with her.

SaltyJoe wrote:Not caring about the world is damning it, when you are the one tasked with protecting it.

It's not damning it, it's simply saying that you don't give a s@#t about it, a pretty understandable reaction when your mind is completely focused on a single objective in a similar situation. Also Shinji already mentioned that he never felt that "he's protecting the world", he used to pilot because he was told to do so and he wanted to be praised by the others, in the final scene of Ha he does so for himself and his desires; Shinji has never been your typical hot-blooded hero set on fighting to protect the World and I doubt that the show is trying to show us that he should actually be like that but he miserably fails in doing so.

Just copying the last 2 posts relevant to the current discussion from the 3.0 Speculation thread and added my reply.

EDIT: removed Jornophelanthas' post by his request as he has posted it himself.

SaltyJoe wrote:@symbv and HyperShinchan:
1., My argument is that Shinji sought to save Rei for himself, not because Rei wanted to be saved. He wanted to get her out of there no matter what because he felt like it's the right thing to do. Rei's stance on things, or indeed, her very person didn't matter as much to Shinji as the idea that he has to save someone he thinks is close to him (which is something of a delusion, given that he knows almost nothing about Rei. He has some surface impressions, but that's it). Point is, he was doing this for himself mainly (Misato cheers him for this exact reason), not so much for Rei's sake, at least in my reading of things.

And yes, the strong desire to save someone for yourself is still a desire, a strong emotional charge that drives a person towards a goal. That's what desire is, no?

2., If you look closely, you can see a rainbow appear after Eva-01 blasts through Zeruel's A.T. field. My guess is that this means the Angel is dead, and Unit-00's core and Rei's essence is what's holding it's physical form together. So yes, the threat was gone when Shinji started corediving for Rei. This doesn't make what he was doing automatically wrong, mind you, but it does infrom the audience a bit. "The hero keeps on pushing forward, despite the situation being resolved from a rational point of view".

3., Rei had never before experienced what could be called love, but now with Shinji, the deal has been sealed, at least in her heart (this doesn't mean that she completely rejects Gendo, though). This puts her into a position of delicate vulnerability, especially when one considers that her emotions for Shinji are more genuine thatn vice versa (my take, at least).

My hunch is that ultimately the contrast between Shinji's selfish clinging and Rei's pure love will come to a head in a scenario where Shinji breaks up with her, causing Rei the biggest trauma of her life.

4., Shinji and Gendo may differ in methods, but their motivations are the same. By the way, Gendo is also a selfish clinger who disregards what the object of his desire wanted (that is, to take care of Shinji).

5., Not caring about the world is damning it, when you are the one tasked with protecting it.

It was Misato who decided on the pilot of Umnit-03. Unless we assume she has intimate knowledge of Gendo's agenda, this line of reasoning falls apart.

My reply:

1. I would think that Shinji did it for Rei's sake, even though Rei was not sure about it and she was wavering between wanting to be saved (which is human) or not wanting to be saved (which is more like the clone in her would be inclined to). It has more to do with Rei knowing she can be replaced but of course Shinji did not know it. If we follow Shinji's thought, seeing a person he considers real friend in fatal danger and trying his best to save her can hardly be argued as doing for his own sake.

2. Thing is, even if the angel is rendered neutral for the time being, without destorying the core who knows the angel is eliminated for good? Does Nerv know a better way to get rid of an angel? Shinji's point is to rescue Rei first and deal with the core later. Of course he had little idea that his focused emotion would trigger the impact.

3. I would rather say Shinji's love (which he could only express in action at critical moments) and Rei's love (which she is not really sure she has and so is still trying to figure out what it is). Any appearance of clinging is just part of expression of love.

4. Yeah, again clinging is part of expression of love. As I said, some, like Gendou, had to drag other people along to fulfill his obsession, which I don't think the same can be said for Shinji -- as I argued earlier.

5. HyperShinchan already said what I wanted to say.

The post below the dashed line was moved from a different thread, quoting a post by SaltyJoe. The original post by SaltyJoe has not been included in this thread so far, but I hope the quotes are self-explanatory.

The reference "Those two" in the first quote refers to my interpretation of Shinji learning two lessons, and demonstrating these during his battle with the 10th Angel ("Zeruel"): "survivor's duty" from Kaji, and perseverance from Gendo. I've argued those points in multiple places, I'll see if I can add a link to one of them later on.

----

SaltyJoe wrote:Those two are kind incompatible, at least in my view. I mean really, how do you reconcile "surviving pain and hardship can make you a more considerate, better person" with "be ruthless, you'll get the pony"? One may argue that elements of each leasson are present in Shinji's actions, but if we assume that, then we have to dilute the rather straightforward words of wisdom imparted on Shinji by Gendo and Kaji to a degree that their influence would turn minuscule, effectively like they said nothing at all.

You misunderstand my use of the term "survivor's duty". During the aquarium visit, right after the Second Impact flashback, Kaji explains to Shinji that a survivor's duty is to carry on and work harder, in order to honor all those who fell along the way. Because only by carrying not just your own burden, but also their burdens, will their deaths not have been in vain.
Kaji tells this story to explain Misato's sense of duty as a survivor of Second Impact.

SaltyJoe wrote:EDIT:
For that matter, i think that the visual of the burnt water melon patch has nothing to do with anyone else other than Shinji. As symbol of growth destroyed, shown just after Shinji is spurred into action by seeing Rei getting devoured, who he has benn, well, nurturing, in a sense. Making her "grow".

The burnt water melon patch is a visual reminder of Kaji, who for some reason cannot be shown on screen at that moment.
(Aside 1. This is an echo of the scene during one Angel attack in NGE when Kaji is watering his melons and convinces Shinji to pilot instead of running away again.)
(Aside 2. Kaji's absence during most of the 10th Angel attack is suspicious. My speculation is that he was doing the background work on Mari's piloting of Unit-02 in secret. He only reappeared after Unit-02 shut down.)
Shinji is despondent, because his fellow pilot Asuka was lost (because of him), and now he also witnesses his fellow pilot Rei being eaten, Evangelion and all. What moves him is the sense that he just lost the last friend he had, and that he has to do everything in his power to finish what she started, i.e. stop the Angel.

SaltyJoe wrote:For my two cents, i am of the opinion that Shinji ultimately sided with Gendo and only Gendo in his world damning antics. Not being able to deal with the pain of loss (like Kaji suggested he should be able to) is what (presumably) motivates both father and son to do the things they do.

Gendo's lesson on perseverance also shows up in two ways: one visual clue and the actual action by Shinji.
The visual clue is his confrontation with Gendo himself, who asks him why he came back. Shinji replies by identifying himself as Unit-01's pilot, showing his determination.
However, he is still acting on Kaji's "survivor's duty" lesson. Gendo's perseverance lesson only comes into play when Unit-01 shuts down, and Shinji refuses the option of failure: "GIVE BACK Ayanami!" His refusal to give up is apparently strong enough to defy the laws of nature, and get Unit-01 to power up, beat the 10th Angel, save Rei, achieve God Status and start (Near-)Third Impact. That is perseverance. Lesson learned.

SaltyJoe wrote:And before anyone argues against it, yes, Shinji was damning the world, at least if we assume the line

Yes, Shinji did not think things through. He only cared about his own guilt, his own duties, his own responsibilities, and his own inner peace. He achieved that inner peace at the cost of the entire world, and he did not care.
He did a thing that was noble in itself, but absurdly irrational and utterly terrible in the bigger picture.
The point was not that Shinji had become an adult, though. The point was that Shinji had taken an important step in that direction. He still has a long way to go. That's what the next movies are for.

The responses below are for at symbv, too, since his nad Hyper's arguments overlap.

Hyper Shinchan wrote:I wonder from where you got the impression that it's a delusion, Shinji and Rei were quite close,

What does Shinji really know about Rei besides that she wanted to throw a party and that she is kinda cute? Not much, really. And can you really say that you love someone when your knowledge of said person is next to nothing?

Rei, on the other hand, reads Shinji far more easily, probably because he is not that big a mystery. Remember, it was Rei who spent a decent chunk of the movie trying to realize Shinji's innermost wish, not the other way around.

Shinji, on the other hand, is largely ignorant of pretty much everything in his life.

I also think that you're missing one important point: Rei answered to Shinji's desire (BTW, is there something wrong with desires?). Indeed she already gave up on her life when the Angel ate her but when Shinji asked for her hand, she decided to do so, she responded to his feelings and his (egoistic) desires.

In other words, Shinji, by the force of his desire, persuaded Rei to take a certain action. Shinji's will still wins out in the end.

Like you said the threat was gone but Shinji had no way to know that by trying the impossible with Rei he wasn't only going to put his human existence at risk, like Ritsuko said, but he could have started 3rd Impact as well.

I also said that this bit of info is there more for the audience than for Shinji. To infrom us of the true objective of the scene.

including the fact that he'll "break up" with her.

Like i said, it's my wild guess, but i see it as the most efficient route to something dramatically compelling coming out of their relationship.

It's not damning it, it's simply saying that you don't give a s@#t about it, a pretty understandable reaction when your mind is completely focused on a single objective in a similar situation.

I would like to point towards Rei's comment on the nature of the Evangelions: "A mirror of the hearth" The image in Shinji's heart was the destruction of the external world.

Jornophelanthas wrote:You misunderstand my use of the term "survivor's duty".

First off, i don't think the lesson at the aquarium can be separated from the lesson about dealing with pain. These two lessons together are the "full package". Being consumed by guilt or pain ultimately leads to obsession, like in the case of Misato or Gendo. Basically, in my reading of things, Shinji didn't learn the key lesson, and so, he hasn't learnt Kaji's lesson at all. But of course, as you said, he still has time to do that.

The burnt water melon patch is a visual reminder of Kaji, who for some reason cannot be shown on screen at that moment.
(...)
Shinji is despondent, because his fellow pilot Asuka was lost (because of him), and now he also witnesses his fellow pilot Rei being eaten, Evangelion and all. What moves him is the sense that he just lost the last friend he had, and that he has to do everything in his power to finish what she started, i.e. stop the Angel.

Well, in my own interpretation of things, when Kaji was going on about growing things i almost automatically thought about the way Shinji more or less unwittingly inspired growth in Rei. That was the context in my mind, but i would like to note that otherwise the whole sequence is geared towards Rei.

-Shinji snaps out of his funk when he sees Eva-00 get consumed
-Mari mentions that the Angel is fusing with the pilot. This sort of implies that there might be a way to get her out of there, thus setting Shinji into motion
-A version of "Thanatos", a piece stronlgy related to Rei starts playing

I don't know, this is not that important really, or at least not as important, in my view, that there is a fundamental clash in the lessons Kaji and Gendo "taught" Shinji.

Also, Gendo's probably the strongest case of being a failed adult in the whole franchise, so it could be argued that by taking his lesson to heart to such extremes that he (Shinji) actually ended up mimicking Gendo, he took a step back, but this post is already too long.

You know, it's not like Shinji went "Oh, Rei is in danger so fuck the world, I want her!"

He went "Fuck the world! No one cares about me anyway!" when Asuka got maimed and then proceeded to leave and do nothing as everything anyone else did to save their asses from zeruel, too blinded with his fury at Gendo to notice that other people might miss him, too. (Lampshaded by Misato "Won't you ask about Rei and Asuka?")
THEN he sees Rei get eaten and gets comfronted with the reality that no, there is someone who WOULD care, whom his closed-off mindset at the moment can't explain away with "They just were nice to me cuz of EVA", so he corrects himself "No, wait, fuck everything EXCEPT Rei."

Thats not yet the desired end result, but we're only halfway through the series. The point where he forsakes everything/runs away etc. is AFTER THE BARDIEL INCIDENT - Compared to his state right after that, chosing to save at least Rei is a step forward, however teensy it may be.

Note that he said he doesn't care about the world before he got anywhere close to actually putting it in danger, he used it as an addition/sentence-enhancement thing added to "I don't care what happens to me!" as a sort of anwer to Ritsuko's warnings for his own Safety.

Also, it's not like Rei was protesting kicking and screaming because she hated being saved so much; She did reach out towards him, what she was saying is more like "You don't have to put yourself in danger for me, I'm nothing precious anyway".

The ending is intentionally designed to provoke conflict and dissonance, evidenced on such a superficial level as basic color design: the inner world is blue, and the outer world is red.


Life and death, creation and destruction, free will and fate, going forward and going backward -- they all coexist in precarious unison.

Though, it is worth noting that the "blue world" is eventually no longer shown, and this is all there is.


Salty brought out the reminder that "Eva is a reflection of your heart". Unfortunately, Shinji wasn't the recipient of this message, but it still helps inform what's going on at the end of the film. I'll also put this here:

(Fuyutsuki and Gendo beholding the South Pole)

FUYUTSUKI:
To think that this is our Mother Earth...
It pains me just to look.

GENDO:
Yes, but there are also those who desired this outcome [disastrous spectacle].
A world untainted by original sin that no man may enter.

teh wiki wrote:What might be gleaned from this is that Third Impact did not simply initiate by chance; the desire for it existed in Shinji's heart, and Eva-01 set it in motion, similar to how Second Impact is said to be a result of human desire.

The music piece that plays during Eva-01's awakening is entitled "Sin From Genesis", inviting comparison with Gendo's words about the South Pole being "a world untainted by original sin".

SaltyJoe wrote:What does Shinji really know about Rei besides that she wanted to throw a party and that she is kinda cute? Not much, really. And can you really say that you love someone when your knowledge of said person is next to nothing?

He knows that she's a sad yet kind person. I think that you don't have to know everything about a person to feel something for him/her, it's more a matter of feelings and sensations.

SaltyJoe wrote:In other words, Shinji, by the force of his desire, persuaded Rei to take a certain action. Shinji's will still wins out in the end.

Something wrong with that? He persuaded her, he didn't force her to do something, this scene is actually comparable to the final one of Jo, Shinji somehow forces himself upon Rei, he actually forces humanity upon Rei, while Rei accepts completely Shinji like this yet Shinji starts to change because of her, they're quite different and it's inevitable that there's an asymmetry in their relation but I also feel like they're complimentary to each other.

SaltyJoe wrote:I also said that this bit of info is there more for the audience than for Shinji. To infrom us of the true objective of the scene.

But I think you can't assert that the true objective of the scene gives us any meaningful info about Shinji's portrayal.

SaltyJoe wrote:I would like to point towards Rei's comment on the nature of the Evangelions: "A mirror of the hearth" The image in Shinji's heart was the destruction of the external world.

It's arguable that "that thing" was still an Evangelion and it was expressing Shinji's heart; Shinji's true desire at that moment was saving Rei, in order to do so he incidentally risked to start 3rd Impact but it's a consequence/side-effect, not his objective/desire.

Kendrix wrote:You know, it's not like Shinji went "Oh, Rei is in danger so fuck the world, I want her!"

He went "Fuck the world! No one cares about me anyway!" when Asuka got maimed and then proceeded to leave and do nothing as everything anyone else did to save their asses from zeruel, too blinded with his fury at Gendo to notice that other people might miss him, too. (Lampshaded by Misato "Won't you ask about Rei and Asuka?")
THEN he sees Rei get eaten and gets comfronted with the reality that no, there is someone who WOULD care, whom his closed-off mindset at the moment can't explain away with "They just were nice to me cuz of EVA", so he corrects himself "No, wait, fuck everything EXCEPT Rei."

The entire "no one cares about me anyway!" view is warped to the point where it doesn't even come close to resembling his reality, though, and so it's not any sort of excuse for self-serving behavior that endangers everyone around him. Lots of people clearly care about him quite a bit, and his choice to ignore that reality only makes him a spoiled brat throwing an earth-destroying tantrum.

You'd have to delete half the movie for it to be even halfway believable that he could for a moment think that Toji, Kensuke, Asuka, Misato, and Kaji don't care about him and thus apparently aren't worth worrying about the life or death of. His completely disinterested reaction to Misato's question about what will become of Rei and Asuka only reinforces how selfish and uncaring he apparently has become in his new-and-improved NME incarnation.

People obviously care about Shinji just as Shinji cared about them (which he probably still does deep down), but the thing is Shinji is the one who gave up on the world and himself because of what happened with Asuka and Eva-03 and (in Shinji's mind) Gendo's betrayal of Shinji.

When he piloted Eva during the 10th Angel, Shinji flat-out said that he didn't care what happened to the world OR himself, but saving Rei was what mattered. Yes, throwing away yourself and everybody else JUST for the sake of one person surviving is a very fucked up way of looking at things, but that's exactly the point. Shinji had some fucked up ways of thinking in both NGE and EoE too, so his emotionally immature feelings (He IS a 14 year old boy) in NME shouldn't come as a huge shock.

I'm not sure why this same point has to be argued so many times (Shinji's actions at 2.0's end were both admirable and horrifying at the same time) when it's obvious that Shinji's attitude about himself and others is horribly skewed. 3.0's international title (You Can (Not) Redo) more or less implies Shinji will have his regrets, anyway. Whether or not Shinji properly matures at the end of NME with realizing his self-worth/the worth of other people ala TV26 and M26', we have to wait and see.

esselfortium wrote:The entire "no one cares about me anyway!" view is warped to the point where it doesn't even come close to resembling his reality, though, and so it's not any sort of excuse for self-serving behavior that endangers everyone around him. Lots of people clearly care about him quite a bit, and his choice to ignore that reality only makes him a spoiled brat throwing an earth-destroying tantrum.

You'd have to delete half the movie for it to be even halfway believable that he could for a moment think that Toji, Kensuke, Asuka, Misato, and Kaji don't care about him and thus apparently aren't worth worrying about the fate of.

I never claimed that at any moment, in fact, I remember explicitly writing that this is the result of Shinji's warped PoV at the moment, and how the thing about the palm-of-eva-02s-hand scene is that he gets shown in the most shattering way possible that this simply isn't true.
That's exactly the point, but you gotta remember that Shinjis internal lack of confidence makes it hard for him to believe that ppl like him.
It is true that - yes, because of his own flaws - he would never have gotten to interact with any of these people without being an EVA pilot, so he concludes that they only like him because he's an EVA pilot. (They met for that reason and decided to like him later along the way, but he wouldn't be able to see what for. What Shinji fails to grasp is that his deeds as Eva pilot were still something he did and yeah, they won't just see him and casually decide to like him, of course, there's a reason, I'm NOT saying that he's right there. So yeah, his PoV is seriously warped here, but not because he's ungrateful, didn't bother to look close enough or is conciously ignoring them, but, as Gendo puts it in ep 26, he's simply not used to being liked by people. He thinks he sux so much that no one could possibly like him, and is unjustly distrusting for that reason.
He sees other ppl's efforts to be nice to him, but it all looks unrealistic/too good to be true to him.)

Also, it wasn't much of a concious choice. I'm not debating that he clearly wasn't thinking about the rest of the world for a second when he was trying to save Rei, but that's not comparable to being fully aware that what he does will destroy it all, and conciously choosing it/actually getting to think/weigh a thing against the other.

To him, the choice was not "The wolrd vs. Rei", but "curl into a ball or go save Rei." He wasn't aware that the world was really on the table.
It's like saying "Oh, I'd kill for a glass of water!" is the same as actively chosing to actually murder someone so you can pluck their drink from their cold, dead hands.

Kendrix wrote:To him, the choice was not "The wolrd vs. Rei", but "curl into a ball or go save Rei." He wasn't aware that the world was really on the table.
It's like saying "Oh, I'd kill for a glass of water!" is the same as actively chosing to actually murder someone so you can pluck their drink from their cold, dead hands.

So much this, I don't understand how some people can really assume that he was aware that the world was going to be fu@#ed for real because of his actions.

Hyper Shinchan wrote:So much this, I don't understand how some people can really assume that he was aware that the world was going to be fu@#ed for real because of his actions.

because they're just like Shinji: They find it hard to believe that some positive (or well, to be realistic, less negative than usual) developement might happen in the EVA world XD

...Or they simply hate either Shinji or Rei or interpret her as something negative, so saving her must be bad by default or the interpretation they worked so much on is wrong - they have several very convincing argu,ents for that interpretation of theirs so, by that logic, it must be the former.

Kendrix wrote:because they're just like Shinji: They find it hard to believe that some positive (or well, less negative) developement might happen in the EVA world XD

...Or they simply hate Rei.

Two Reichu summed it up best. The teh wiki quote as well. Somewhere in his heart he really wanted the world to die, or no longer be apart of it.

And, how is it good character development. I'm pretty sure Rei still represents the mother. So he saves her, cuts her, and himself out of the world, and retreats into the womb that represents Eva. Essentially retreating from the outside world.

Hence the title You Can (Not) Advance.

...

Seele00TextOnly wrote:Which, for those, of us who like and understand him so much in the series, makes these new films all the more baffling and feeling like a slap in the face.

Liking and understanding Shinji in the NGE doesn't mean you can't also like and understand him in NME. I know I like both despite the NME cast not having as much time for development compared to the series.

Hyper Shinchan wrote:So much this, I don't understand how some people can really assume that he was aware that the world was going to be fu@#ed for real because of his actions.

Because even if Shinji had known Near 3I was going on, he wouldn't have cared. He himself says as much. Like Reichu and Na7e stated, a part of him wanted the world and himself to die.