Kaworu Nagisa vs. Tabris

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Postby Reichu » Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:10 pm

View Original Postbobbyfischer's ghost wrote:Kind of makes me wonder, why seele didn't drug Kaworu as well.

Who's to say that they didn't? Maybe that's why Kaworu acts like he's high when he first shows up at Nerv HQ. :tongue:

SPOILER: Show
There's any number of fanfic opportunities to be had here. At one point, I was messing with the notion that Kaworu was dependent on Seele for a cocktail that keeps his body sustained and intact, and he's provided with only one or two more injections after Seele let him go. Meaning, Kaworu is on a ticking clock, and he is denied any kind of warm and fuzzy future.

Also, he was being drugged so that he wouldn't kill himself while in Seele's care.


liquidus wrote:Though he doesn't take all the drugs that she does so is probably more in touch with his Adam-ness than she is her Lillith-yness

24 does make it clear enough that Kaworu is more "in touch" than Rei is. The NGE2 game seems to indicate, however, that for all Kaworu knows, there may be an emotional disconnect. I.e., he does not really "feel" this whole "incarnation of Adam" thing and may even be afraid of it on some level. Much translating to do...
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Postby bobbyfischer's ghost » Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:34 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Who's to say that they didn't? Maybe that's why Kaworu acts like he's high when he first shows up at Nerv HQ. :tongue:

SPOILER: Show
There's any number of fanfic opportunities to be had here. At one point, I was messing with the notion that Kaworu was dependent on Seele for a cocktail that keeps his body sustained and intact, and he's provided with only one or two more injections after Seele let him go. Meaning, Kaworu is on a ticking clock, and he is denied any kind of warm and fuzzy future.

Also, he was being drugged so that he wouldn't kill himself while in Seele's care.





Then kaworu would be in the same boat as Rei the only difference being that kaworu would be aware of the fact that he's nothing more than a puppet. At least from Seele's POV. In any case it could make for a good fic.
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Postby Reichu » Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:45 pm

View Original Postbobbyfischer's ghost wrote:Then kaworu would be in the same boat as Rei the only difference being that kaworu would be aware of the fact that he's nothing more than a puppet.

Episode 24' wrote:KAWORU:
All will be as the Lilim [sic] direct it.
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Postby Kendrix » Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:48 pm

At very least, there wasn't any indication of Kaworu needing mountains of pills like Rei. And she couldn't do with unit 01 what he did with Adam-based EVAs (like unit 02.)

So, Rei is mostly human with a little ( more human-like) angel, or at least fifty-fifty, while Kaworu seems to be mostly Angel and if anything (Rebuild seems to indicate that the theory of him having a human "donor"/being connected to that DNA experiment is correct, tough. I guess that inserting human material into adam would have the same effect as inserting adam-derived material into lillith - BOOM, Impact, formatting the earth's harddisk as far as life goes)

As for his self-image, we don't really get much introspection into him... As a writer, I cann tell that the perpective you show a character from is very important for the "magic". Which is why we get treated to every singlev of Misato's thoughts, but are never shown Gendo in anything but his uniform.
But there was never any indication of him having any identity issues, in stark contrast to Rei.
He seems to have known what he is from the beginning, since he shown no discernable reaction to the SEELE dudes mentioning the soul-of-adam-thing and he deliberately sought Rei out because he was interested in meeting another SoL-Derivate. ("You are like me!"*smile*) He is shown wondering if he's doing the right thing and remaind indecisive about dooming humanity but for all the philosophic remarks he made, he was never shown musing about his indentity. Whatever he considers himself to be, he's sure of it. You can tell by how condfident he seems.
He IS meant as a contrast figure to both Shinji and Rei, after all.

It could be that he considers "Kaworu Nagisa" and "Tabris, Angel of Free will" to be one and the same or two sides of the same coin.... Dunno about the "Adam" indentity, but at least he doesn't seem to have complexes about it/ doesn't seem to have that fear Rei has that it will "devour" his own identity.
Look at how he and Rei react to each other: He seems to have been informed about her/to have looked forward to meet her and mentions their shared "condition" as openly as his cryptic style of speech will let him. He might as well have walked up to her and said "HI! I've heard you're part SoL too!"
Rei, on the other hand, immeduately reacts with suspicion and is shown wondering about it on her own.
Alas poor Kaworu! I knew him well...
Todo list:
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- Good faith Analysis of Mari
- Finish ep 8 commentary

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Postby Reichu » Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:49 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:At very least, there wasn't any indication of Kaworu needing mountains of pills like Rei.

Another thing to keep in mind is that NGE provides absolutely no information regarding the nature of Rei's pills. They're part of the scenery, and fans can make up whatever they like.

As for Kaworu, his character is practically a blank slate. He could be on drugs, or he could not. It doesn't make any difference to the show, either way.

And she couldn't do with unit 01 what he did with Adam-based EVAs (like unit 02.)

Even if Rei had a similar level of awareness and acceptance regarding her nature, Yui isn't the sort to mope around in her core and let her body get fucked around with.

So, Rei is mostly human with a little ( more human-like) angel, or at least fifty-fifty

If you're implying that Rei is a genetic hybrid or something, that has no basis in the show and other official materials. (It's a fair argument for Kaworu, though.)

But there was never any indication of him having any identity issues, in stark contrast to Rei.

This could just be an artifact of his limited appearance and role.
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Postby bobbyfischer's ghost » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:11 pm

@Kendrix It's not so related, but look at manga kaworu and his
kitten killing, in contrast anime Kaworu didn't have the time to develop these traits. I'm kind of glad he didn't.
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Postby Stryker » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:22 pm

I think I have to reinstate the fact that, under an ethical standpoint, that was a perfectly logical and reasonable thing to do. None of them should've felt obliged to have to take care of it. And it would've been less a humanitarian thing to have left it there to starve to death, then to kill it painlessly. And I highly doubt there were any animal shelters (which was my first thought, honestly) at the there. At this situation, that was a perfectly ethical thing to do. If I had the guts, I would've done that too (but I'm too much of a softy).
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Postby bobbyfischer's ghost » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:33 pm

^ I disagree, letting it live just sounds better to me.Yeah it is hard to imagine an animal shelter in a post second impact world. I wouldn't have the guts to kill it ether.
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Postby Tankred » Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:38 pm

View Original PostStryker wrote:I think I have to reinstate the fact that, under an ethical standpoint, that was a perfectly logical and reasonable thing to do.



So Kaworu is representing PETA now?

Oh my god, even more reasons to hate him!

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:22 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Even if Rei had a similar level of awareness and acceptance regarding her nature, Yui isn't the sort to mope around in her core and let her body get fucked around with.


Though she might feel differently after a session with Arael.

If you're implying that Rei is a genetic hybrid or something, that has no basis in the show and other official materials. (It's a fair argument for Kaworu, though.)


I'm not sure it is, but I agree there's more wiggle room there.

There's nothing at all with Rei, though; blue hair aside, we've no evidence whatsoever that there's anything Angel in her. She's a clone of Yui with part of Lilith's soul, full stop.

This could just be an artifact of his limited appearance and role.


Yes. As you said he's a blank slate. And heck, his surprise at the end of 24 does suggest there might be identity issues at work there; is he resetting the planet for his children or ceding it to the Lilim? That sounds like a pretty serious conflict between the heart of Kaworu Nagisa and the soul of Adam to me.
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Postby Kendrix » Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:26 pm

View Original Postbobbyfischer's ghost wrote:@Kendrix It's not so related, but look at manga kaworu and his
kitten killing, in contrast anime Kaworu didn't have the time to develop these traits. I'm kind of glad he didn't.


They have little in common besides the appearance. I think the most telling distinction in their characterization is that the manga one didn't know what that song he was playing was called and asked about it, while the anime-one was the one telling Shinji how awesome the song is. Its the manga one who seemed less experienced.
There's that perspective thing I mentioned earlier, too. Manga!Kaworu gets notably more thought-bubbles and they show him being frustrated. Sort of lacks the wise aura of his anime counterpart, the manga played up the similarities with Rei, (inexperienced with humanity stuff and the like) and disregarded the bits about him being a sort of contrast as well. I don't know if Sadamotos intention was to make him more accessible, to troll people or that he just didn't know what to do with the character, but in my opinion, it lacked the special something.

I'm sort of curious for how Rebuild!Kaworu will turn out, I suspect he'll be a bit more like the Anime one since Anno is involved...
Alas poor Kaworu! I knew him well...
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- Good faith Analysis of Mari
- Finish ep 8 commentary

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Postby bobbyfischer's ghost » Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:52 pm

@Kendrix Manga kaworu did feel a bit rushed, I bet that Sadamoto just wanted to rush Kaworu to finish his character arc. I missed the mystery that shrouded Kaworu, but I guess it's because I'm so used to anime Kaworu.


I'm courios to see how the will handle Kaworu in rebuild, however I'm a little worried about time restrictions and it's effects on character development.
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Postby Stikuru » Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:47 am

I always figured that the scene in EOE with the GNK coming from the GNR (hehe, lots of acronyms) was just because Shinji was scared of seeing Rei's face.

So in order to convince Shinji to follow through with complementation, or at least make a decision about complementation, the GNR used Kaworu in order to calm Shinji down. Kaworu was one of (if not the only) person Shinji really trusted at the end, so his face would be more than enough to get inside Shinji's comfort zone.

But some of the other theories people have said (Specifically the one about Kaworu being to Adam what Rei is to Lilith) do make a lot of sense as well.

Just thought I would throw in my two cents.

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Postby Tsuki No Nagisa » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:19 pm

Well yeah, anime and manga Kaworu ARE very different...

Anime Kaworu, was more experienced with humans, MAN , he evn knew poetry D;

while Manga Kaworu, didn't know almost anything about humans, and he wasn't all flippy with Shinji, but very direct, mostly like Rei..but he is a bit more active ._. and cute .w.

So....still my question , if he died in Kaworu/Tabris body, his soul reincarnated in Gendo's palm Adam?
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Postby Sachi » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:43 pm

View Original PostTsuki No Nagisa wrote:So....still my question , if he died in Kaworu/Tabris body, his soul reincarnated in Gendo's palm Adam?

His soul probably lingered around Terminal Dogma until it was able to throw itself into the mix along with Rei, Lilith, and embryo!Adam in EoE.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:09 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Though she might feel differently after a session with Arael.

"Might" is the key word. We'll never know. Yui seems confident enough in the decisions she's made throughout life that having Arael wander through her mental luggage probably wouldn't be too devastating. (And for all we know, Leliel played around with Yui and not just Shinji, but see where that went.)

I'm not sure it is, but I agree there's more wiggle room there.

The dialogue in 21' doesn't read like a euphemism for conception? Not at all?

There's nothing at all with Rei, though; blue hair aside, we've no evidence whatsoever that there's anything Angel in her.

And the pigmentation can be explained by "soul-induced changes in epigenetic expression" easily enough. Assuming anyone wants to go there.
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Postby AshPhoenix » Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:13 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:And for all we know, Leliel played around with Yui and not just Shinji, but see where that went.

Really? I've never entertained that notion before. It's interesting to think that Leliel had psychological powers too, though. I honestly thought that Yui just came out to help Shinji when he was suffering (after his freak-out when his time was almost up).
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Postby Warren Peace » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:32 pm

The rule seems to be that Yui can only take control when Unit-01 is deactivated. Yui exists in the subconscious kind of like how Lilith exists in Rei's. At least that's how I look at it.


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