Parting "Text" at end of EoTV

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Parting "Text" at end of EoTV

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Postby CJD » Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:15 pm

Making a new thread to prevent the risk of derailing the other one:

View Original PostKorgan wrote:ALSO: this always bugged me to hell! One of Shinji's last phrases is, "To my father, thank you!" To put it mildly, WHAT THE FLYING F*CK?! He's thanking him for... what, exactly?! Something along the lines of "I forgive you" would've fit the circumstances better...


Are we sure this is supposed to come from Shinji's mouth? Aren't those lines in text that flash on the screen? Before coming here, I took them to be a directors commentary, you know like a "Thank you for playing" kind of thing, that they were Anno's parting words, but everyone here says they're from Shinji. I'm curious why that's the conclusion?

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Postby Sachi » Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:37 pm

If we are to assume that the words come from Shinji, consider this: EoTV can be interpreted as a successful Instrumentality, essentially a GENDO WINS. Shinji chooses to accept Instrumentality, the one his father so graciously provided him, and Shinji thanks him for it.
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Postby TehDonutKing » Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:46 pm

Alternatively, Gendou's Instrumentality was meant to be temporary. After Shinji learns to like himself, he returns to physical form, and finds his friends and parents congratulating him. Shinji realised that what Gendou did was for the best, so he thanks him. That was what I came up with about five minutes after watching EoTV the first time, and I haven't found any evidence that suggests otherwise.
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Postby Ornette » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:04 pm

Some more stuff here: http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?p=135487

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Postby Bagheera » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:03 pm

How bizarre. I always thought it was obvious that this was Anno speaking, not Shinji. I never knew anyone thought of it any other way.
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Postby TehDonutKing » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:00 pm

I thought it was obvious that it was both of them. To each vis own, I guess.
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Postby Seph » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:39 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:How bizarre. I always thought it was obvious that this was Anno speaking, not Shinji. I never knew anyone thought of it any other way.

If it is Anno speaking, why does he say goodbye to his Mother, who is still alive? Besides, why is the director making an unattributed statement here? It makes no sense for it to not be Shinji "saying" those words, the way I see it.

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Postby Bagheera » Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:43 am

View Original PostSeph wrote:If it is Anno speaking, why does he say goodbye to his Mother, who is still alive? Besides, why is the director making an unattributed statement here? It makes no sense for it to not be Shinji "saying" those words, the way I see it.


Why does his mother have to be dead to say goodbye to her? Shinji's mother isn't dead either, you know.
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Postby Korgan » Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:07 am

View Original PostTehDonutKing wrote:Alternatively, Gendou's Instrumentality was meant to be temporary. After Shinji learns to like himself, he returns to physical form, and finds his friends and parents congratulating him. Shinji realised that what Gendou did was for the best, so he thanks him. That was what I came up with about five minutes after watching EoTV the first time, and I haven't found any evidence that suggests otherwise.

That makes sense... but the corollary is kind of strange: all of Gendo and SEELE's (and Yui's, if you buy that speculation about her agenda) plots turned out for the best? If 3I didn't happen, Shinji would still be self-hating, the people killed in EoE would stay dead, the ones who'd prefer to stay tanged would retain their identities, etc, etc.
View Original PostBagheera wrote:Why does his mother have to be dead to say goodbye to her? Shinji's mother isn't dead either, you know.

If his mother wasn't departing/departed in some sense, what reason would he have for saying goodbye?
View Original PostSachi wrote:...EoTV can be interpreted as a successful Instrumentality, essentially a GENDO WINS. Shinji chooses to accept Instrumentality...

Not even going to go into it.
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Postby CJD » Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:01 am

View Original PostSeph wrote:If it is Anno speaking, why does he say goodbye to his Mother, who is still alive? Besides, why is the director making an unattributed statement here? It makes no sense for it to not be Shinji "saying" those words, the way I see it.


Admittedly, I don't know much about Anno's depression pre Eva, but could it be him saying something like "Goodbye mother, I'm finally moving on"? True, the unattributed part does throw a cog, but it's not uncommon for a director to put messages at the end of their works, sometimes after credits, sometimes before. Also, why the "And to all the children of the world", why does Shinji say that?

I realize the first parts a stretch, but if he was very close with his mother it fits I think, more so then Shinji randomly congratulating the children of the world.

View Original PostTehDonutKing wrote:After Shinji learns to like himself, he returns to physical form, and finds his friends and parents congratulating him.


Well, I find it hard to believe this takes place in the physical world.

SPOILER: Show
Image


Where is he standing if that's the case? It's clearly not supposed to be flat earth ground, as the curves are much too noticeable for that angle/picture. Perhaps on a summit of a hill, but it looks to be somewhat high up. Possibly he's standing on the black moon, but I think the black moon is to big for, again, the curves to be that noticeable.

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Postby thewayneiac » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:01 am

View Original PostCJD wrote:Where is he standing if that's the case? It's clearly not supposed to be flat earth ground, as the curves are much too noticeable for that angle/picture. Perhaps on a summit of a hill, but it looks to be somewhat high up. Possibly he's standing on the black moon, but I think the black moon is to big for, again, the curves to be that noticeable.


Shinji has just made his decision to end Instrumentality. Individuality has been restored, and they are congratulating him on his correct decision. No one has reembodied yet, not even Shinji, thus they are still in a surreal landscape.
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Postby Reichu » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:33 am

Perhaps it needs to be mentioned that the ENTIRETY of EoTV takes place in surreal landscapes. The big blue ball at the end is no more direct evidence of the characters' physical states than all the WTFness prior to the "Instrumentality begins" caption in #25.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby Bagheera » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:48 am

View Original PostKorgan wrote:If his mother wasn't departing/departed in some sense, what reason would he have for saying goodbye?


Who cares? I don't consider that any more relevant than an author's dedication or afterward in a book. I don't ask why the author's thanking a parent or some random person, so why should I inquire here?

Past that, it could be a reference to growing up and leaving the home. It's not an inappropriate sentiment for such an occasion. It's not an appropriate sentiment in Shinji's case, since his mom is right there with him at the end of EoTV. He has no more reason to say goodbye to her than anyone else.
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Postby CJD » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:15 pm

View Original Postthewayneiac wrote:Shinji has just made his decision to end Instrumentality. Individuality has been restored, and they are congratulating him on his correct decision. No one has reembodied yet, not even Shinji, thus they are still in a surreal landscape.


Right right, I'm agreeing with you. The line I quoted, well I got the impression he was implying the "Congratulations" scene took place in the physical world, which I was replying to.

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Postby TehDonutKing » Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:20 pm

@Korgan and CJD
All of EoTV is screwy, even the parts before Instrumentality begins. Just because the final scene doesn't appear to be part of reality doesn't mean it isn't.
Also, no one who died in EoE died in EoTV. They're completely different endings.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:53 pm

View Original PostTehDonutKing wrote:Also, no one who died in EoE died in EoTV.


Episode 25 begs to differ :

10m 38s in
Image

10m 43s in
Image

View Original PostTehDonutKing wrote:They're completely different endings.
This however I agree with. EoTV is Gendo Wins, humanity moves on past Instrumentality, and Shinji is just one of the latecomers to emerge from the talking cure into a comfortable consensual scene inside the communal noosphere.
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Postby Bagheera » Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:15 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:This however I agree with. EoTV is Gendo Wins, humanity moves on past Instrumentality, and Shinji is just one of the latecomers to emerge from the talking cure into a comfortable consensual scene inside the communal noosphere.


Doesn't that have more to do with the fact that you're a fan of high concept transhumanism than it does with anything actually in the show?
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby NemZ » Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:10 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Doesn't that have more to do with the fact that you're a fan of high concept transhumanism than it does with anything actually in the show?


Odd question when transhumanism is all over the place in the show.
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Postby BornIn1142 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:17 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Who cares? I don't consider that any more relevant than an author's dedication or afterward in a book. I don't ask why the author's thanking a parent or some random person, so why should I inquire here?


"Who cares?" It seems to be that rationalizing this text is vital to understanding it and its context in the ending. I get that you have it all figured out and don't see the need to explain the conclusions that are so obvious to you, but "How does that explanation make sense?" seems like a crucial bit to me.
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Postby Bagheera » Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:25 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Odd question when transhumanism is all over the place in the show.


Usually not as a good end, though. If we're going to suggest that this is Gendo's good end we should do it within the framework of the show and not in the context of a hard liftoff idea that probably doesn't apply.

AFAICT all we know for sure is that Gendo wanted to be with Yui; the rest seems to be pretty baseless. I'd really like to see a translation of Gendo's end from NGE2, as it might tie up a lot of loose ends (I don't think Reichu's gotten to that one yet, though I could be wrong).

View Original PostBornIn1142 wrote:"Who cares?" It seems to be that rationalizing this text is vital to understanding it and its context in the ending. I get that you have it all figured out and don't see the need to explain the conclusions that are so obvious to you, but "How does that explanation make sense?" seems like a crucial bit to me.


If you're serious about that you might want to read the whole post before complaining. I addressed the above directly in the part you cut out.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.


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