Rei after merging with Lilith

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Re: Rei after merging with Lilith

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Postby child of Lilith » Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:23 pm

View Original Postexnecross wrote:What happens to Rei 3 after Shinji rejects the Human Instrumentality Project? Is she just gone? The vision of her at the very end doesn't really answer anything for me.
Rei 3 is gone, but is replaced by her true self.

It seems like she is way too important to just be over with. Is her soul included in all of the souls sent back to Earth at the end, or is Lilith gone for eternity now? I was under the assumption that Lilith had to exist in some form or another in order for life to exist, so Rei would still exist too then? If anything, it should be possible to create a Rei 4.
By the end she's pretty much God, so no, Rei doesn't go back to earth. It would be a step back for her if she did.

Is there any official answer to this, or is it just another "nobody really knows" thing?
It's mostly just speculation.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:18 am

This is pretty much the definitive statement of what happened to Rei and Kaworu

Shinji:
I don't mind. But, what are you two within my heart?

Rei:
Hope.
The hope that people might be able to understand one another.

Kaworu:
And the words 'I love you'.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:51 pm

Who knows about what happened to Kaworu and the Angel souls (maybe Yui took them for Seed 2.0 business?), but I'm 100% positive that since instrumentality was cancelled, there's a whole lot of experience-less souls floating around until they decide to reembody, and generally everyone will. Rei, however, has effectively merged with the space-time continuum and is always everywhere at once, and will watch over humanity, and especially Shinji, forever and ever and ever.
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Postby Petrucio » Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:05 pm

Instrumentality was canceled only for Shinji. The whole thing is a test for him. It's asking him: are you so selfish that you want the whole of humanity to suffer everything again just so you can try to be with Asuka? Do you really think you can, after what we just showed you about yourself and her? He answers "yes". He gets exactly what he wants. Instrumentality wasn't canceled, on the contrary, it succeeded. It would have been canceled if Rei allowed him inside the collective spirit. She can't destroy his own AT field at the most basic level because he is made in her image, he has to abandon it, and since he didn't wanted to abandon his own soul, if he was there inside, it would have ruined everything, he would be like an Angel inside Rei, and would be a source of fear, anxiety and confusion for everyone, it would not be paradise, not even for him.
And perhaps even more technical: all human souls were already inside Rei's memory (her spirit). That blood that gets thrown on the ocean is composed of empty souls anyway. Shinji technically was with the rest of humanity, but all those souls already identify their true selves not in themselves, but in Rei.
And Shinji and Asuka weren't the only ones rejected by instrumentality. The green crosses represent all the people like that, who answered "yes, I want to comeback, even after seeing how wonderful it is here and how horrible I am, I want to be myself again." It looks like they are ascending, but thats because Shinji is the biggest, heaviest antichrist, but all those other green crosses are doomed too. They are not inside Rei. The people who get saved in her memory are little sparks. I imagine even she doesn't have enough storage for all those green crosses, since each one of them is an entire, personal universe specially designed as a prison for a few people each.

Also, everything Kaworo says is a lie.

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Postby Jornophelanthas » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:06 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:This is pretty much the definitive statement of what happened to Rei and Kaworu

Shinji:
I don't mind. But, what are you two within my heart?

Rei:
Hope.
The hope that people might be able to understand one another.

Kaworu:
And the words 'I love you'.


Thank you, this was exactly the quote I was referring to in my post on the first page, but that I could not quite remember literally.

---
@Petrucio (immediately above):

I mean no disrespect, but what you are saying goes directly against my interpretation of EoE at so many levels, that I have difficulty understanding your position. At this point, I can only say that I disagree with most of the things you say, but I cannot argue this because I fail to grasp your explanation. I am intrigued, though.
Would you perhaps be so kind to read my post (on the first page of this thread), and comment to what extent you disagree with me, and why? (If would take this thread too far off-topic, please feel free to send a PM to my forum account.)

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Postby Reichu » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:45 pm

Jorno: You can get a sense of context for Petrucio's claims right around here.

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Re: Rei after merging with Lilith

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Postby Petrucio » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:21 pm

View Original PostPetrucio wrote:I have different, blasphemous opinions


Perhaps better context can be found here:
[url]http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?t=11815[/url]

Look, you don't have to agree with me, I feel it's already enough that you are intrigued.

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Postby exnecross » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:33 am

I guess its mostly that a part of me just doesn't want Rei gone in a physical sense because I grew attached to her as a character. Oh well, lots of things I don't like in anime (think Elfen Lied ending).

BTW, anyone see my theory at the end of page 1? I think it could be true somehow. Dunno.

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Postby Petrucio » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:22 am

View Original Postexnecross wrote:I guess its mostly that a part of me just doesn't want Rei gone in a physical sense because I grew attached to her as a character.


You mean, like Shinji to Asuka?

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Postby Azathoth » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:24 pm

View Original Postexnecross wrote:BTW, anyone see my theory at the end of page 1? I think it could be true somehow. Dunno.


Rei wants to protect and help Shinji, true, but she also wants to be very, very dead. I think it's pretty clear in EoE which impulse trumps the other.
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Postby exnecross » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:02 pm

View Original PostPetrucio wrote:You mean, like Shinji to Asuka?


Not 100% sure what you mean by that but I guess lol.
Rei wants to protect and help Shinji, true, but she also wants to be very, very dead. I think it's pretty clear in EoE which impulse trumps the other.


I suppose you're right. Happy endings are over rated I suppose :P
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Postby Petrucio » Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:18 pm

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:Rei wants to protect and help Shinji, true, but she also wants to be very, very dead. I think it's pretty clear in EoE which impulse trumps the other.


If you want to protect and help Shinji, you're dead too.

Don't touch this!

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Postby DanYeomans » Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:35 am

When Rei rejoined with Lilith, they were one. And Because of this, when the giant Lilith-being we see in End of Evangelion was killed after Shinji realized his wish, the soul - Rei - would have left Lilith. Thus, the vision of Rei we see in the final scene of the movie is Rei's soul. Also, it can be assumed that Kaworu is there aswell. Shinji and Asuka, and Rei and Kaworu in many ways symbolize the back story. Rei is the Seed of Wisdom after Instrumentality, and Kaworu is the Seed of Life after Instrumentality. Shinji and Rei are the children of Lilith, although in many ways Asuka reminds me of a child of Adam in the sense that she relies on strength over knowledge. You also have to remember that at the end it can basically be said that any one who wishes to live again may come back; that would likely include Rei. In what form, we don't know.
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Postby exnecross » Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:24 am

View Original PostDanYeomans wrote:When Rei rejoined with Lilith, they were one. And Because of this, when the giant Lilith-being we see in End of Evangelion was killed after Shinji realized his wish, the soul - Rei - would have left Lilith. Thus, the vision of Rei we see in the final scene of the movie is Rei's soul. Also, it can be assumed that Kaworu is there aswell. Shinji and Asuka, and Rei and Kaworu in many ways symbolize the back story. Rei is the Seed of Wisdom after Instrumentality, and Kaworu is the Seed of Life after Instrumentality. Shinji and Rei are the children of Lilith, although in many ways Asuka reminds me of a child of Adam in the sense that she relies on strength over knowledge. You also have to remember that at the end it can basically be said that any one who wishes to live again may come back; that would likely include Rei. In what form, we don't know.


Yes she could come back but most people are assuming she just doesn't feel like it, according to posts so far.
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Postby evafanatic » Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:30 am

I've always saw Rei as someone who kind of really contemplated and questioned about her very own existence as a person throughout the series whilst gaining/experiencing new emotions for the main character (shinji-kun).

But when the mysteries about her very existence started to unravel I think she kind of came to terms to what she really was (lilith) and kind of filled the new role of lilith with the memories/interaction of Rei I, II and III. I think it's also quite clear she came to terms with this by saying 'I'm home' right before she merged with Lilith in EoE.

With whether or not she can come back - I have no idea whatsoever, I think what she becomes at the end of the show is some kind of paradoxical entity that exists nowhere but everywhere at the same time; a being without a physical body.

But if she really wanted to come back for Shinji's sake then I think she would've had done so immediately after instrumentality was aborted. And I think anno would've given clear indications that Rei was willing to come back.

So do I think Rei is going to come back in a physical form?

Short answer: no

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Postby Jornophelanthas » Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:50 am

Rei and Kaworu indicate that they will remain in Shinji's heart as the hope that people might be able to understand each other, and the words "I love you".

I take this as a definitive statement about their future existence: they have either no intention to be more, or no ability. Since they have effectively become human souls through their being put into human bodies by NERV and SEELE, I do believe they have the ability to return, if they chose to. They just don't choose to, for the sake of the human race.

The whole point of Evangelion is that it's a coming of age story, not just for the main protagonist (Shinji), but also for the human race as a whole (as represented by Shinji). Shinji finally reaches the point where he no longer needs the presence of Gendo and Yui to define who he is. Similarly, the human race reaches the point where it no longers needs the physical manifestations of the ultimate parents Adam and Lilith (as Rei and Kaworu) to decide its own destiny.

This does not imply that Shinji (or humans in general) will act flawlessly (the strangulation scene comes to mind), but rather that they are free to make their own mistakes, and carry full responsibility for them. No external force will reward or punish them; they have taken on the duty and responsibility to reward or punish themselves.

Rei and Kaworu understand that their children, the human race, can only develop if they, the parents, withdraw. Both Gendo and Yui each reach the same conclusion towards Shinji in their respective final scenes and release Shinji from their influence.
- Rei is the personification of hope;
- Kaworu is the personification of love;
- Gendo is the personification of authority and rationality;
- Yui is the personification of protection and emotion.

None of them need to be external presences in Shinji's life any longer, because Shinji now carries all of these properties inside his own heart. He creates his own hope; he nurtures his own love, he has authority over his own actions, and he is able to protect himself.
None of them will return, because they all know that their existence as parents has fulfilled its purpose.

---
Two asides:

1. Adam/Kaworu is not the actual parent of humanity, but has decided to adopt the human race as his/her/its own. Which is why Kaworu allowed Shinji to kill before merging with Lilith.

2. The "coming of age" angle is why I disagree on a fundamental level with Petrucio's interpretation of Evangelion, because if I understand his view correctly, humanity will forever remain the children of God, and will never be independent of God-the-ultimate-parent-figure. I just don't see such a point being made in EoE. (Feel free to argue against this).

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Postby Petrucio » Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:09 am

View Original PostDanYeomans wrote:Rei is the Seed of Wisdom after Instrumentality, and Kaworu is the Seed of Life after Instrumentality. Shinji and Rei are the children of Lilith, although in many ways Asuka reminds me of a child of Adam in the sense that she relies on strength over knowledge. You also have to remember that at the end it can basically be said that any one who wishes to live again may come back; that would likely include Rei. In what form, we don't know.


The way I see it, its all backwards what you are saying there.

All backwards.

Lilith is the creation of the Lilim. Rei is the one who brings us life. Kaworu is a vampire that wants to suck our life away. You can't comeback after you joined Lilith and Rei lives on only in our hearts, as a unification of all our hopes and dreams. If she came back in physical form, we would just explode in a see of lcl.

The thing that keeps Shinji and Asuka from joining us is you, Kaworu. You don't understand whats going on down here, so you just lock yourself up there in the moon, waiting. But your time will never come. It's impossible, they are not ready. If you do it, they will blame us for a while, and then realize their mistake. The harder you try, the more we win. And the more we win, the less we love you, and the more we love ourselves.

You are naked and you don't see it. You look at us as if we were a mirror. You are nothing but a point in the middle of nowhere. There is nowhere you can run to escape from us. We were watching from the begging your attempts to fool us but they are too obvious.

We want to see YOUR instrumentality, not ours. Get out of our heads, would you? You are starting to be a creeper. You CREEPER.

Maybe you should try having a little more faith.

But if you play the nice guy because you want to be the Justin Bieber for everyone, you just gonna look like a sissy. But if you play the in your face Kiler Kiel behind the Gendo, that just makes her scared too soon.

I don't know, maybe you could... Just tell her to fuck off? Not because you want it, just so she can see what a fool she's been all along?

That will only work if you don't do it for yourself or even for her, but for the image you want her to be. And you have no authority to cross that line, and every time you do it, we have to clean up the mess. We are tired of it.

That's the point.

[..]

Yeah, but you are still naked. You understand whats going on, but that doesn't change anything about yourself because you don't have any. You DON'T HAVE ANY and that's because you don't understand when we yell at you.

I know.

So why do you keep trolling us?

For the lulz.

Thats not in your hands, is it?

No.

And you can't take it from us no matter how much you try, right?

Yeah...

So you have to fool us into giving it to you?

Uhmmm (whispering Ode to Joy) Look at that bird.

What bird?

[Goes away to poop]

So I have this new thing I call the ... Key of Nabucodenazzor!

No Shit!

Yeah!

Dude, thats like ... THE DOOR !!

I don't know, that looks hard to pull off...

Trust me, they are gonna love it!

Are you sure?

Yeah.

But it's too obvious.

No it isn't.

They just told us it's too obvious.

[..]

Maybe if it changed it's shape?

I don't know, thats your call.

You have to change more than the key.

What do you mean?

Remember the scene with the Magi? They used two to save the System.

Yeah.

Ritsuko is on to us.

That bitch.

It's too late now.

Let's do it anyway.

They are not going to handle it.

That's their problem.

You are being a Keynesian, aren't you? We are not all going to be dead in the long run, but that doesn't mean you can just use us to your own benefit. Look, even the environment one day will disappear, but our choices remain forever. You can't forget the past and you can't just erase it. You can't come back to it either. And no, we are not here to repeat the same mistakes and play a part in your little theater of horror all over again. So we are putting you inside the box and trowing it away.

Fine by me, I'll just watch over you.

We'll hide ourselves at night.

I'll be there too.

I guess we'll have to go further than the moon then.

You'll most surely will die.

When you say it, we know it is not true. We know she is there, we still have to rescue her.

Well. So be it.

Total blindness is no different than absolute darkness either.

We can her her voice screaming.

Its so loud and painful we erased it from our memory.

We can feel she is punching us.

I told you.

Doesn't seem to change anything, though.

Yes it does.

Do you want to come back?

I just did.

You are tasteless. Go clean that toaster. Trow away those old things. Your sister is coming back.

You mean?

Yeah.

Rei in black.

Kaworu her period.

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Postby Logan Payne » Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:23 am

View Original PostPetrucio wrote:Lilith is the creation of the Lilim.


Set your location to Soviet Russia please?

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Postby Jornophelanthas » Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:15 am

View Original PostPetrucio wrote:[...] you, Kaworu. You don't understand whats going on down here, so you just lock yourself up there in the moon, waiting. But your time will never come. It's impossible, they are not ready. If you do it, they will blame us for a while, and then realize their mistake. The harder you try, the more we win. And the more we win, the less we love you, and the more we love ourselves. [...]


I'm pretty sure Kaworu is a fictional character and does not read this forum.

Or is this poetry?

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Postby AuraTwilight » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:46 pm

I think Petrucio is going insane.
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