Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:19 am

Forgot to reply to this:

View Original PostReckoner wrote:It was what came afterwards that truly killed me. The hug. He hugged Rei, embraced her. In the entire series of Evangelion, Shinji NEVER ONCE embraced another human being like that. He never ONCE had close physical contact with anyone by his own will. He is supposed to be traumatized by physical contact and emotional attachment. Honestly. What the heck? I cannot accept that Shinji would ever do something like this. This not only goes against Shinji's character, but everything of the original TV series.

This was the only standout scene that I truly had a beef with in Rebuild regarding Shinji as a character, but it was a pretty major one...


Shinji has various physical contact (romantic (Misato frenching him goodbye), intimate (Him laying against both Asuka and Rei in a sex position, later on Rei and Shinji holding hands and his head in Rei's lap, the final scene Asuka caress), violent (strangling Asuka twice)) with all three leading ladies in EoE, so him hugging Rei isn't completely surprising. NGE also placed tons of emphasis on hands, which New Movie Edition is doing somewhat as well...

Regarding tsundere:

Soryu's considered somewhat tsun-tsun--although not a true tsundere--because tsundere start out tough but their feelings for the lead eventually wind up affectionate and warm over time, dere-dere. Soryu had none of this, instead there was a downfall (for all the characters). Shikinami however is technically a proper tsundere (so far at least, unless some de/re-construction is on its way) by starting out nasty to Shinji and warming up over time.
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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:31 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:
Rei Ayanami is an emotionless doll  SPOILER: Show
Image

I love you, Mr. Tines!

View Original PostReckoner wrote:If he wanted to remake Evangelion, as a treat to old fans and a gateway for new fans, he is doing a piss poor job. If he is just trying to completely reimagine the series, I don't understand why he needs to go back to milk the Evangelion franchise all over again, unless his sole intention is to line his pockets with cash.

Because Evangelion was the result of Anno's depression back in the 90s and now he wants to re-imagine it again? Also, a simple, damned, remake was still going to be yet another way to milk fans, that's obvious.
About Asuka, I'm not sure about her character (and I don't want to enter in absurd discussions about tsun-tsun, dere-dere and tsundere), personally I liked her more, I've never liked Asuka in NGE and I felt like she was a nice improvement (she could be more honest with her feelings and she showed more interest in other people); anyway I have to agree that her development was rushed.
View Original PostReckoner wrote:Now of course I happen to be a Shinji x Asuka shipper at heart, but I won't let that bias get me here...

If you say so, I'll just have to believe you... anyway Shinji and Rei already had a special relation in NGE, it's simply better developed now.
View Original PostReckoner wrote:Anyhow, the reasons why I think her changes were negative I think are clear.

No, they're not, you're just saying that "Rei wasn't like that in NGE", for many people (including me) she's more enjoyable now.
View Original PostReckoner wrote:OK. It's honestly not the biggest deal in the world. It was what came afterwards that truly killed me. The hug. He hugged Rei, embraced her. In the entire series of Evangelion, Shinji NEVER ONCE embraced another human being like that. He never ONCE had close physical contact with anyone by his own will. He is supposed to be traumatized by physical contact and emotional attachment. Honestly. What the heck? I cannot accept that Shinji would ever do something like this. This not only goes against Shinji's character, but everything of the original TV series.

"Never once", "never once"... what is the point? Shinji is way better now, I just hope that he won't completely revert back to his old ways because of some shitty event in Q.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:07 pm

View Original PostReckoner wrote:GAARRR!!! CHANGES!! WTF, MAN?????

What's the point of "Rebuilding" something if it's not gonna be any different? Changing what Shinji struggles with, or perhaps more appropriately, how he approaches those struggles, and therefore altering his character, is just part of the change that Anno's experimenting with. I don't see this is a bad thing, seeing as how it doesn't contradict with anything else suggested in NME so far. Same goes for Asuka and Rei.

I mean, if you just take the NME films separate from NGE, you really don't have too much else than a story that makes sense within its own confines, a lot of unanswered plot related questions, and an effective cliff-hanger. And I think you have to treat NGE equally. You need to see that without bringing any of the influences from NME into the picture. If you do that, everything within each separate saga flows pretty naturally.

Also, I don't understand this statement:
View Original PostReckoner wrote:If he is just trying to completely reimagine the series, I don't understand why he needs to go back to milk the Evangelion franchise all over again, unless his sole intention is to line his pockets with cash.

How does one "reimagine" something without ever "going back to it"? You're suggesting he can re imagine Evangelion without ever touching Evangelion in order to do it, and I want to know how it is possible for one to do this.

And "milking"... are you referring to merchandise? Because that's not Anno's department. you can blame that on every toy company who were bidding for the rights to the character models. Though I'm sure Anno isn't suffering from it either, we need to be real. If no one was bidding for the rights to the Evangelion merchandising, there wouldn't be as many Eva toys as we see on the market. This instance of toy merchandising that was poorly predicted might help you out on the subject. So clearly, what ever companies are manufacturing the toys are milking it for all they're worth. The filmmakers are just going along with it for financial gain. (After all, it's not like Anno owns all of the merchandising rights to Evangelion. George Lucas was the only filmmaker to pull that stunt.)

When any filmmaker that's not George Lucas "milks" something, in my opinion, he plays each scene in slow motion, a technique which kind of irritates me, or the filmmaker will do it all "Jackie Chan" style, and repeat the same stunt he did again and again from different angles, a technique that varies for me depending on how it's done. None of these techniques are present in any of the Evangelion franchises, NGE or NME, so I think it's safe to say Anno isn't "milking" anything. He's got other people doing that for him.

(Wow, this was the first thing to appear on the Google when I searched "Evangelion Merchandising Rights".)
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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:10 pm

Amidst everyone jumping on Reckoners back, I wanna give him a high-five and say well said. You nailed a lot of the major shortcomings. Don't worry about all the frantic defenders desperate to like this no matter what, nor their attempts to drown you out and make you feel like you shouldn't have even expressed yourself in the first place. If you look through this thread you'll see plenty of others who agree.

Also welcome aboard and hope to see a lot more from you! :D
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:22 pm

View Original PostSeele00TextOnly wrote:Amidst everyone jumping on Reckoners back, I wanna give him a high-five and say well said.

Well, most of his statements suggest that elements in NME were contradictory within itself because they weren't the same as they were in NGE. That's like saying Nolan's depiction of Batman's origins in Batman Begins was contradictory within itself because it didn't follow Tim Burton's depiction of the same incident in Batman. After all, what motivation did Batman have to fight against The Joker in The Dark Knight if The Joker wasn't the one who killed Bruce Wayne's parents like he did in the Tim Burton movie? Without that element, Batman has no motivation to go after The Joker like he did in The Dark Knight, and therefore Nolan is a poor story-teller.

Just sayin'.
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Postby GasmaskAvenger » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:29 pm

Rebuild is chock full of shortcomings, but honestly...I STILL cannot wrap around my head how it's an awful movie

I'm sorry, Anti-Builders, I cannot ever hate Rebuild (yet). It did not offend me like other film franchise blunders (Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines a noticeable one that really grinds my gears.)

Trying to hate Rebuild is something I cannot really do unless I force it, thus making it forced hate. I am 100% aware of the flaws, the fuckups and errors made and admit that, yes, that it really needed more time and less background film production politics to fuck things up and really forced it to be rushed, but it did not at all warrant any brutal, unforgiving scorn from me. It did no piss me off and my mental wiring of what a "bad" movie is gives me a major blue screen of death when it comes to people hating on Rebuild.


I've liked plenty of movies that have received various different opinions of wild varieties and some that some outright despise and call betrayal and in those cases, it never bothered me (I've had my fair share of disagreements, but in a recent case, it was more of a debate over what the direction of the franchise as a whole would go from there, not the film itself), but this...this debate regarding the cerebral internet hate machine that is the Rebuild of Evangelion debates completely renders my mind into a bizarre state of functioning (as mentioned before...a state ala a Blue Screen of Death).


I greatly apologize if I, from here and before, get into another brutal Rebuild debate and my thinking and reasoning is odd, i'm letting you all know it's because I can't, and never will, can truly comprehend the brutality and vitriol of dislike and spite of Rebuild. I'm so sorry, I cannot understand, it's very...foreign to me. I understand the reasons it's a disappointment and agree with them, but it's the ridiculous response of disappointment as harsh anger and rage in this situation to be confusing to everything i've known about disagreements of things in the media and the whole concept of split opinions.

I'm sorry, just finally had to come out and say this.
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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:35 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Well, most of his statements suggest that elements in NME were contradictory within itself because they weren't the same as they were in NGE.

Bravo!
View Original PostSeele00TextOnly wrote:If you look through this thread you'll see plenty of others who agree.

Sure thing, the 5, 6 members of the Rebuild hate-team. There are surely some shortcomings in Rebuild (it's not like there are perfect anime/movies afaik) but criticising the characters because they're different from NGE, that makes no sense at all.
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Postby Ornette » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:10 pm

Well, there's nothing wrong with not liking the rebuild version of the characters.

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Postby GasmaskAvenger » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:11 pm

View Original PostHyper Shinchan wrote:criticising the characters because they're different from NGE, that makes no sense at all.


in their defense, they would respond by saying that they want the spirit of the originals or any connection or whatnot is retained


yeah, it's a weird argument that I don't really get myself (considering i've been writing my own AU EVA fic that has wildly different takes on some of the characters)

I admit it's nothing wrong with hating certain takes on characters though.
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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:43 pm

View Original PostOrnette wrote:Well, there's nothing wrong with not liking the rebuild version of the characters.

Of course, just like I/we can dislike the NGE versions of some characters, but personally I'd try to judge them without doing comparisons (as far as it's possible), the entire "they ruined my Eva characters" drama is a little childish, imo.
View Original PostGasmaskAvenger wrote:in their defense, they would respond by saying that they want the spirit of the originals or any connection or whatnot is retained

Well, I think most people here don't even support the sequel theory so there's absolutely no need to respect the spirit of the originals characters or keeping connections, they're two separate works that stand on their own; even if it were a sequel (or anyway linked to NGE), there could be differences, I don't understand why there shouldn't be; it'd be simply boring if it were the copy of NGE in the regard of characters' development and plot (but I understand that someone would have preferred a visually improved version of NGE tout-a-court).
Last edited by Hyper Shinchan on Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Shogo-Kun » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:50 pm

+100 to everything GasmaskAvenger said! I'll admit there are some flaws with Rebuild, mostly because it suffers from what Freaky calls the "Mid-Installment Syndrome", but I don't see how one could "hate" it to such an extent. Anno wants to go in a different direction, so let him! There's a difference between constructive critisim for a film and destructive critisim (aka bashing). And what some Rebuild haters are doing is destructive critisim. And IMHO, it just shows that they're hating it for the sole purpose of hating something EVA related because it's not, to quote the infamous "V", "true gospel". Which tells me that they're just being pretensious and selfish.
NGE was a damned good anime
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Postby Reckoner » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:51 pm

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:Shinji has various physical contact (romantic (Misato frenching him goodbye), intimate (Him laying against both Asuka and Rei in a sex position, later on Rei and Shinji holding hands and his head in Rei's lap, the final scene Asuka caress), violent (strangling Asuka twice)) with all three leading ladies in EoE, so him hugging Rei isn't completely surprising. NGE also placed tons of emphasis on hands, which New Movie Edition is doing somewhat as well...


You're missing the point. Shinji never INITIATED any sort of physical intimacy with anyone. Violence sure, but nothing else really. The kiss with Asuka was initiated by Asuka, as was Misato.

It just sort of changes the whole way I look at his character. Is this the same boy I remember being this badly afflicted by the hedgehog's dilemma? Or he is just merely another under confident, but shy boy?

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:What's the point of "Rebuilding" something if it's not gonna be any different? Changing what Shinji struggles with, or perhaps more appropriately, how he approaches those struggles, and therefore altering his character, is just part of the change that Anno's experimenting with. I don't see this is a bad thing, seeing as how it doesn't contradict with anything else suggested in NME so far. Same goes for Asuka and Rei.

I mean, if you just take the NME films separate from NGE, you really don't have too much else than a story that makes sense within its own confines, a lot of unanswered plot related questions, and an effective cliff-hanger. And I think you have to treat NGE equally. You need to see that without bringing any of the influences from NME into the picture. If you do that, everything within each separate saga flows pretty naturally.


I find it meaningless if the character is not the same character. If Anno wants to aim for a happier tone or conclusion to Evangelion, then I want to see the SAME characters make it there. Otherwise it's just Anno taking different characters to a different conclusion and kind of just implies to me that the original were doomed to failure. Yes, you can have the old characters make better decisions, but it has to be within the confines of their personalities.

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Also, I don't understand this statement:

How does one "reimagine" something without ever "going back to it"? You're suggesting he can re imagine Evangelion without ever touching Evangelion in order to do it, and I want to know how it is possible for one to do this.

And "milking"... are you referring to merchandise? Because that's not Anno's department. you can blame that on every toy company who were bidding for the rights to the character models. Though I'm sure Anno isn't suffering from it either, we need to be real. If no one was bidding for the rights to the Evangelion merchandising, there wouldn't be as many Eva toys as we see on the market.


You take out the word "completely" and my statement's meaning is very different. If Anno is creating a story so detached from the original beyond superficial elements that it's hardly recognizable, I see no point in revistiing the story. Reimagining gains meaning when you present the same setting and characters, and reach a different conclusion. What we have here is pretty much the same setting, but DIFFERENT characters reaching a very different conclusion. I just don't see the point. He should just make something new.

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Well, most of his statements suggest that elements in NME were contradictory within itself because they weren't the same as they were in NGE. That's like saying Nolan's depiction of Batman's origins in Batman Begins was contradictory within itself because it didn't follow Tim Burton's depiction of the same incident in Batman. After all, what motivation did Batman have to fight against The Joker in The Dark Knight if The Joker wasn't the one who killed Bruce Wayne's parents like he did in the Tim Burton movie? Without that element, Batman has no motivation to go after The Joker like he did in The Dark Knight, and therefore Nolan is a poor story-teller.

Just sayin'.


Your analogy is wrong because Tim Burton isn't directing the Dark Knight.

Anyhow, my overall displeasure with Rebuild 2.0 is the betrayal of my own personal desire to see certain elements of the original Evangelion make way into the film. I do feel it is fair to evaluate it on such terms because as a reboot of an existing franchise, Anno and Studio Khara are definitely banking on old fandom catching fire. Now call me weird, but I never wanted to be “entertained” in a classic fun manner when it comes to anything Evangelion related. Rather, I want to be pulverized into my chair and have my emotions violently played with, something that Rebuild 2.0 ultimately failed at with the lack of depth presented in its characters.

Overall, with the overemphasis on silly school life moments, to how the characters were warped from their original personas, Evangelion lost its identity as a gritty mecha in an apoplectic world. Originally a captivating and philosophically complex story was now no more than a generic hot blooded mecha tale. What many including myself saw as perhaps the greatest anime franchise ever was now no more than a simply above average viewing experience. If this was just any old anime there would be no problem, but for something with the reputation of Evangelion, such an average job earns nothing but my scorn.

I still don't understand why Anno decided to cover what was pretty much 12-18 episodes of the original series material in one movie when the other covered only like 5-6. Even the first one felt pretty quick, but it still came off pretty good.
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Postby Shogo-Kun » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:54 pm

Thank you, Reckoner, for proving my point. Especially with your signature.
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EoE was an anime masterpiece
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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:57 pm

View Original PostReckoner wrote:I find it meaningless if the character is not the same character. If Anno wants to aim for a happier tone or conclusion to Evangelion, then I want to see the SAME characters make it there. Otherwise it's just Anno taking different characters to a different conclusion and kind of just implies to me that the original were doomed to failure. Yes, you can have the old characters make better decisions, but it has to be within the confines of their personalities.

Absolutely perfectly said. In a sense the originals were doomed to failure indeed because they didn't overcome their problems enough or in time, but the way to tell it differently is to bring the same character to a different place in a reasonable manner. Not just lazily changing them into different people in the first place.

View Original PostReckoner wrote:Originally a captivating and philosophically complex story was now no more than a generic hot blooded mecha tale. What many including myself saw as perhaps the greatest anime franchise ever was now no more than a simply above average viewing experience. If this was just any old anime there would be no problem, but for something with the reputation of Evangelion, such an average job earns nothing but my scorn.

Also very, very well said. It's a shame this isn't more clearly understood as at the very least an explanation for the anti-Rebuild sentiment that exists.
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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:03 pm

View Original PostShogo-Kun wrote:+100 to everything GasmaskAvenger said! I'll admit there are some flaws with Rebuild, mostly because it suffers from what Freaky calls the "Mid-Installment Syndrome", but I don't see how one could "hate" it to such an extent. Anno wants to go in a different direction, so let him! There's a difference between constructive critisim for a film and destructive critisim (aka bashing). And what some Rebuild haters are doing is destructive critisim. And IMHO, it just shows that they're hating it for the sole purpose of hating something EVA related because it's not, to quote the infamous "V", "true gospel". Which tells me that they're just being pretensious and selfish.

Well said, Shogo-Kun, after all this is a common attitude for this people, lately we had a little drama regarding Anima even though we know almost nothing about it (with people saying "I knew Anima was shit since the beginning!", just after symbv translated some infos about the characters and mecha), without mentioning that afaik the manga was the favourite target of hate before Rebuild. It's like you said, pretentiousness.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:21 pm

View Original PostReckoner wrote:You're missing the point. Shinji never INITIATED any sort of physical intimacy with anyone.


He was the one to take Rei's hand and rest his head in her lap in EoE. (Nicely implying that Shinji got over his fear of Rei from #23' & #24'.) And the violent stranglings with Asuka, yes.

Shinji's hugging Rei (note how she doesn't hug back, how Rei-like of her) and overall attitude towards Rei in NME strongly give me parallels of Kaworu and Shinji's relationship in NGE. Although I also have the feeling that NME is gearing up for Shinji and Rei to have something of a silbing-relationship this time around (they're stuck in Eva-01/Yui after Near Third Impact, at least) but time will tell.

Regarding the external pacing of the films: 1.xx was intentionally meant to be more or less episodes #01 through #06 of the series with some alternations that "start from the same place" (I forget how the 2.22 booklet describes this as.) 2.xx is more or less episodes #08 through #19 with some #22' and #23' elements thrown in to have a nice blend of similarities yet major differences. 3.xx and 4.xx in contrast are going to be a brand new ball game.

Personally I think changing more and more content as each film goes on is a smart move as long as the internal pacing flows together. Which, for the most part it does, but of course Asuka's treatment was somewhat rushed and Mari was intentionally left unexplained until 3.xx.

Reckoner wrote:I find it meaningless if the character is not the same character.


As stated in several places before, different continuities are going to have different character interpretations by default. (The point of New Movie Edition being a different work is really driven home with Shikinami in place of Soryu, let alone everybody else.) Anime Shinji is not Manga Shinji nor New Movie Edition Shinji. The same is true for the rest of the cast, and the various other continuities (video games, spin off manga, whatever) out there, too.
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Postby GasmaskAvenger » Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:22 pm

View Original PostReckoner wrote:I still don't understand why Anno decided to cover what was pretty much 12-18 episodes of the original series material in one movie when the other covered only like 5-6. Even the first one felt pretty quick, but it still came off pretty good.

that's really the biggest fuckup of Rebuild

in many ways, 1.0 really needed to have elements of the other episodes in it too.

1.0's problem is that it's too much of the same thing (IMO) and 2.0 does a really bizarre job of executing being different and yet the same.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:27 pm

View Original PostGasmaskAvenger wrote:1.0's problem is that it's too much of the same thing (IMO)


Like my above post mentioned, the 2.22 booklet revealed that 1.xx was intentionally more or less (some differences, of course) the same thing, with the major differences not happening until 2.xx. For better or for worse, that's how Studio Khara decided to roll with things. :shrug:
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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:34 pm

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:Like my above post mentioned, the 2.22 booklet revealed that 1.xx was intentionally more or less (some differences, of course) the same thing, with the major differences not happening until 2.xx. For better or for worse, that's how Studio Khara decided to roll with things. :shrug:

Yeah, while I don't completely disagree with GasmaskAvenger, I think it would be hard to implement his idea. If they extended Jo beyond episode 6 (let's say until Asuka's appearance? Or until Sahaquiel's battle?) they would have ended up leaving more parts of NGE unchanged in NME since Jo was intended to be only a setup with minor adjustments; also modifications are required to fit those first six episodes in even less time, Ha did that in a way or in another, basically Jo would stop being a simple setup of the events with the modifications proposed by GasmaskAvenger (since I suppose that they would have to modify something to fit even more episodes).
So let’s make a wish.
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No matter how many times

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Postby Reckoner » Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:46 pm

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:As stated in several places before, different continuities are going to have different character interpretations by default. (The point of New Movie Edition being a different work is really driven home with Shikinami in place of Soryu, let alone everybody else.) Anime Shinji is not Manga Shinji nor New Movie Edition Shinji. The same is true for the rest of the cast, and the various other continuities (video games, spin off manga, whatever) out there, too.


I don't see how this is a reasonable defense of what I said. Of course they did what they intended. Just because Anno intended it I have lost legitimacy to my claims? No, I still think the Rebuild incarnations are far more generic and extremely shallow compared to their NGE counterparts, on top of also being significantly warped in manners I find personally disagreeable. I also still think that judging from what I've seen and what I've heard on the production side of things that Anno should've simply made an entirely new series with entirely new themes.
Anno has let us all down.


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