Should we count the three Reis as separate characters?

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Postby Kendrix » Mon May 23, 2011 7:52 pm

I think considering them the same person would be the huge disservice here.

The quote goes: "Only because the other call us... etc" , before that, Rei III reacts with disbelief "How can all of you..." Chibi-Rei refers to them in plural... they're shown standing next to each other... (which is of course to be seen as a metaphor, I'm not saying they literally in one room)
So there's an ambiguity there.

Then there's the "You're afraid that you will be erased from the minds of others if another exists" line - this, of course, also refers to Lillith (No one will remember "Ayanami Rei" and just see her as Lillith, but the clones are also shown repeatedly during that exchange, probably for a reason... their destruction is of course, a nice BG Image for "You're afraid that your current self might dissapear" but there are also intact clones turning around/displaying themselves as... not quite alive but not really dead either... I think her individuality as current version of Rei being forgotten because the others see her as the same as the next version is just as scary to her - and of course, this is no II's viewpoint that no III sees through the Memories she got plasted on, as no III goes "Uh, actually, no, I'm not afraid." at the end of it.
The fear must have existed at some point because... why else the "surpressing of a facet of your reality" that obviously took place. (ep 14 shows that she totally believed in ppl being influenced by nurture alone at that point which may be self-seception, but is still an opinion of sorts.), also she doesn't like red - the color of her inhuman eyes. There's a zoom on her eyes when the "facet of your reality" line is spoken - that realization alone is important for no II because... hey, she isn't as indifferent to dissappearing as she appeared to be, she just didn't think she had any value, but she learns that - and dies right vafterwards, poor thing. She departed shorty after going "I'm me, not you, I don't wanna be you."Life's a bitch.) but the new person that popped out of that tank came to a different concluson even with the same memories.

When she wonder what she is in ep 14 (a line of Reis = reference to the clones) is shown, she sort of "shuts up that train of thought" by telling herself that she's only what others made her, again the "surpressing that facet" thing. Also, she aparently dislikes flowers because they remind her of the clones ("So many the same. So many without pupose".... The "sameness" isn't a comfortable thought to her. )

A similar thing can be observed in ep 11 when Asuka goes "You think you're so special!" (Look who's talking) and Rei gravely replies that she's nothing special at all. (Because she's basically a mass produced product and there are lots of spare Reis which look just like her, . and would get treated just like her even by her beloved Commander which doesn't seem to make her happy (It IS a horribly depressing thought... ) If she's depressed about being "nothing special", she must concider herself one of the many non-special things...)

Or, the famous line: "If I die, I can be replaced"
not, "I can be fixed", "I can be transfered" or "I can't die anyway"
She has already experienced that once, and equals the death of herself as in "Rei II" to "I die" and her potential sucessor to a "replacement", i.e, not bthe same but does the job just as well...

Her entire character arc is about uniqueness/individuality, which, tragically only becomes so very apparent when she eventually IS replaced and her replacement is disturbingly unlike her... Well, at least the poor thing had better luck in Rebuild.
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Postby Someone » Tue May 24, 2011 12:33 am

Naw, i think that Rei 2.0 and Rei 3.0 are the same.

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Postby NemZ » Tue May 24, 2011 12:39 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:NemZ: By "that's how Rei seems to look at it", are you referring to "we're all Rei Ayanami because other people call us that"?


That is what I had in mind yes, and it's important because she's acknowledging that she doesn't see the others as identical with herself. They are all Rei, and she contains them, but they are not the same as her just as you are not literally identical with the food you eat even though it's atoms and chemical potential energy become you and the actions that define you.

What really is it that defines a person as a person? If it's physical reality then not only are the Rei's obviously different people but there are also at least 3 Shinjis. If it's the uniqueness of the soul then that ended with the Rei2/00 split if not earlier. If its the continuity of memory then you have to account for both Rei and Shinji experiencing memory loss after rembodiment, as well as deal with the possibility of implanted memories that weren't ever actually lived by the person who owns them.

Look at it another way... say a person is horribly scarred in an accident; are they still the same person afterwards? You made the case that it is the relationships with others and experiences one has that defines them as a person, but if these ties are altered or severed by this change and the stress it places on them doesn't that have to mean the person is also changed?

Now imagine there is a parallel universe where the person is not scared, and that somehow these two people living very different lives are instrumentalized into a single person. Is it fair to say that they were always the same person? That the result is the same as the person they were before the split? That the new being they become will be identical to either of them previously?

To be perfectly honest I'm not sure where I stand on some of these, or what that means to my perception of the self. I am sure, however, that erring on the side of treating each as a person in their own right is the safest bet. Why? Because without that assumption it robs the previous selves the dignity of being mourned when they cease to be... and Rei2, Tom Baker, and His Darkness Dream all deserve better than that.
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Postby Combs » Tue May 24, 2011 12:52 am

character-wise, there is no difference between Rei-II getting replaced by a clone, than having her memory wiped.

A Rei-II with amnesia would look and act exactly the same as Rei-III.
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Postby CyberXIII » Tue May 24, 2011 8:50 am

Not really, mostly for reasons people stated earlier. If you fall into the "Eva-00 has a fragment of Rei's soul" boat, then Rei III acts the way she does because she's more or less whole. Rei II acted the way she did because she was pretty much raised in isolation for most of her life after her first death.

The other reason I say that each Rei isn't really the same person is because of the clone thing.
The three Reis we see are, imo, three different girls all having the same face and memories but distinctly different personalities, thoughts and feelings. Even disregarding their personalities (Which again, vary from relatively normal with Rei I, to downright frosty like Rei III), the clones themselves are just different people with the same face.

They all have Yui Ikari's face, but their reactions to things and the way they grow and change (or what little we see of the first and last clones doing so) are all different. Why do you think Gendo was so shocked when Rei III betrayed him? He thought she'd be just as loyal to him as Rei II and wouldn't even think of doing anything he didn't tell her to do.
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Postby symbv » Tue May 24, 2011 9:14 am

View Original PostCyberXIII wrote:The three Reis we see are, imo, three different girls all having the same face and memories but distinctly different personalities, thoughts and feelings.


All these talks about whether the three Rei's are three persons or one person are mind-bogglingly complex, and this only reminds me of one thing --- Could I make a proposal of using the Trinity as the model, that Rei exists as three persons but is one being and there is unity in all three? :pray:
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Postby Kendrix » Tue May 24, 2011 10:34 am

View Original PostCombs wrote:character-wise, there is no difference between Rei-II getting replaced by a clone, than having her memory wiped.

A Rei-II with amnesia would look and act exactly the same as Rei-III.


Actually, no, and that's the point. It's not that she just doesn't remember stuff (Shinji got one or two memory gaps thanks to EVAs going crazy with him in it, but he still acts like himself afterwards) there is way more "off" - The script itself lampshades lack of response/ her eyes having "gone cold".
She doesn't even look at Shinji, when he's thanking her for saving her life.
Even if she didn't remember it, if it was Rei II, she would still be affected by the feelings that led her to do so, since these have been developing for quite a while, and duh, show some more reaction to the fact that he came to see if she was allright/comments on how he's happy to see her.
She'd be blushing and asking if he came because of her, she doesn't take the slightest thing that is done simply for her for granted. (compare/contrast with events in eps 6,15, and 17) Or she'd at least, duh, reply to stuff (Which she seems capable of from the beginning, see ep 6 - We last saw Shinji and Rei having a normal-looking conversation in ep 22)

That they actually have to backup her Memories(That they DO backup them comfirmed somewhere here. Takes some scrolling to find that one quote, tough. ) would suggest that the new clones get them "plastered on" in a way and would otherwise have nothing but their looks in common with the Rei we know...

Also, another line, "I'm probably the third", as in the third individual in a row, "I" relates to the current version alone....
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