[MANGA][NGE] What's the general consensus here?

For talking about everything else Evangelion: from the various manga and video games to merchandising and video/audio releases.

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Postby Lucretius » Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:29 am

View Original PostSaltyJoe wrote: In manga format, one has to rely on words more hevaily, and the words Sadamoto sometimes puts into the characters mouths... (that "under the moonlight blah blah" monlogue of Shinji after defeating Ramiel (IIRC) and Asuka's recent "i had this dream with sunflowers" stuff were just groan worthy, IMHO).


These scenes are pretty corny and melodramatic to begin with, though. Exaggerated emotions are pretty much inevitable in a story that involves skyscraper-sized robots, and the original is just as guilty of this as the manga.

View Original PostSaltyJoe wrote:The main gist of what i was trying to get at is that Rebuild still has the chance to give us something new, fresh and worthvile (that is, if they grow some balls and make the final movie(s) at least two hours long. But, like i said, a chance, not a certainty.), while the manga pissed away that chance by deviating somewhat from the original storline, yet not deviating enough.


I'd honestly rather have a rehash of Instrumentality than the "Biff, pow!" conculsion Rebuild is probably building up to, though of course Instrumentality wouldn't work too well in a film series. "Deviating somewhat from the original storline, yet not deviating enough," is exactly how I would describe Rebuild; it tries to introduce a bunch of new plot points, but teeters on incoherence at times because it's still wedded to the structure of the original show. If they really wanted to do something fresh, they should have had a completely new plot, new Angels, and new mindfucks from the start.

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Postby Reichu » Thu Mar 25, 2010 7:55 am

You two need a room?
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby BattleMonkey » Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:55 am

Sadamotos manga is supposed to just be an adaptation of the anime, don't know what people expect. It's a manga adaptation, they always are different from the anime they adapt and it's pretty common for them to change things. But it was never said that the manga was going to be a huge divergence or something new, it still is simply an adaptation.

A few things were changed and people expected "something completely new and different!"

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Postby Merridian » Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:00 am

BattleMonkey wrote:A few things were changed and people expected "something completely new and different!"
More like we expected just a few things to be changed and what we got was "something completely new & different! :D" It's really up to what the viewer enjoyed from the series in terms of whether s/he'll enjoy Sadamoto's "interpretation" or whatever he called it.

The only good comics resultant from NGE are doujin. And by this I don't mean Re-Take. I mean mindless, honest smut.

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Postby Xard » Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:03 am

^Merri is right :lol:

There's this one half-H half-lolz dojin I liked: it was called Evangelion 2019 or something like that: in any case it has Shinj & Asuka as pair that go to same university as well as Rei & Kaworu as other pair (with one scene where Kaworu suddenly pops out of Rei's neck or something like that like in EoE, shocking everyone. Hilarity ensued). It was kinda cool for what it was.

View Original PostLucretius wrote:These scenes are pretty corny and melodramatic to begin with, though. Exaggerated emotions are pretty much inevitable in a story that involves skyscraper-sized robots, and the original is just as guilty of this as the manga.


There was nothing corny or melodramatic about them in original forms - alone by the fact original NGE is not some sort of half-baked ReiXShinji fanfic that sacrifices all other qualities for shitty romance and ensuing "poetic angst" (that Shinji's embarrassing mumbles "post-ep23" could be defined as).

Achievements of Sadamoto's manga:

- Gorgeous artwork. If only tv series had had art as consistently awesome as this (of course impossibility)
- Kaji's backstory is cool shit
- The ending touch to ep 4 railroad scene is great with Misato talking about Pen^2 etc.

Fails of Sadamoto's manga:
- Handling of all characters apart from Kaji
- Godhand Gendo and other stupid bullshit
- Manga Kaworu deserves special mention for his failtasticness
- as does Mr. Angsty Generic Shonen Hero Manga-Shinji
- All depth is sacrificed for straightforward story
- Meaningless and cheap emotional punches e.g Toji dying that serve only purpose of emotional manipulation
- Whereas NGE was constantly artistically and formally daring and innovative Sadamoto does not try to do ANYTHING with his given format - he follows all the rules and conventions of form slavishly.
- Asuka being some crazy ninjagirl
- Asuka's past being fucked up
- Rei going from emotionless girl & related plotline deconstruction to straight playing by the tropes. Damnit Sadamoto.

etc. etc.

Now despite all this I don't hate manga: I actually think it is good manga series. If it wasn't for the vastly more superior original work I'm sure I'd appreciate it much more

Oh, and Rebuild's only passing similarity to manga is

SPOILER: Show
increased focus on Rei & Shinji
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby Lucretius » Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:03 am

View Original PostXard wrote:
Oh, and Rebuild's only passing similarity to manga is

SPOILER: Show
increased focus on Rei & Shinji


I think the similarities extend further than that. Rebuild has in common with Rebuild:

SPOILER: Show

-Shinji's "You just give the orders!" speech in 1.0

-Asuka defeating an Angel by herself

-The father-son conflict being significantly played up

-Kaji and Shinji having a manly bonding moment at an aquarium
-Darker Kaworu

-Kaji lectures Shinji on survivor guilt

-Misato's Electra complex is downplayed

-Shinji learns about Misato's past from Kaji

-Asuka's rivalry with Shinji is downplayed

-Shinji is somewhat angrier

I think Sadamoto even called Rebuild "an adaptation of my manga," though I can't find the interview atm.





He shuddered a bit, remembering the somewhat creepy level of detail Kaji had gone into, while rubbing a watermelon in a disturbingly sexual way.

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Postby BattleMonkey » Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:29 am

View Original PostMerridian wrote:More like we expected just a few things to be changed and what we got was "something completely new & different! :D"


Except this is BS, as the manga has been pretty much 90% or more scene for scene recreations of the anime. It's barely new and different, it's slightly divergent and nothing more. It's purely over reactionary Evangelion fans who look to deep into everything and expect too much from an anime to manga adaptation when you simply can't do the same things with the two mediums.

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Postby Reichu » Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:47 am

This thread is just becoming a recreation of this, with Rebuild comparisons thrown into the mix. Do I need to split and merge or something?
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby Merridian » Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:47 pm

Reichu wrote:Do I need to split and merge or something?
Sounds cool.

BattleMonkey wrote: Except this is BS, as the manga has been pretty much 90% or more scene for scene recreations of the anime.
Not really. Some of the additions and liberties that the manga provides end up giving different implications to similar-looking scenes, not to mention that even those similar-looking scenes probably only make up around 65-70% of the manga (especially in the later volumes).
BattleMonkey wrote: It's barely new and different, it's slightly divergent and nothing more.
I dunno. MangaShinji looks more like a slightly-angstier version of Tomino’s Amuro than he does SeriesShinji, Toji faildies, Kaworu’s a nutball, Rei’s weird, Asuka’s weird, Kaji’s no longer mysterious, and Gendo has a heavy-handed blatant god complex. That stuff isn’t just slightly divergent. Some of it is altering the core of what the series was about in the first place (notably the changes to Shinji, but making Kaji less mysterious was pointless & unnecessary IMO).

It’s definitely not new & different in terms of clichés & tropes, but that’s what Xard was saying; everywhere Anno went crazy subversive loldeep on his audience, Sadamoto’s played it very safe and without much creativity, essentially making his telling of NGE into a rather standard post-NGE mecha shonen. He isn’t even having fun with his medium like Anno did with his animation—and a great deal of the manga isn’t even cleverly organized on the page, either. It’s just… well… normal. And that’s it.

And this isn’t even a case of, say, Akira film vs manga, or Berserk series vs manga, since in both cases the contrasting mediums involved both proved to have strengths. The manga for Akira & Berserk were both excellently drawn, creatively positioned on the page, and offered inventive stories that really kept audiences in the grip. The film of Akira offered unbelievable animation, well-shot composition, and an intriguing storyline that was pretty successful at condensing such an epic into 2 hrs. The Berserk series offered great directing and a fantastic soundtrack. In both cases, each work was adapted exceptionally well—it wasn’t just “taking what was on paper & putting it on screen”, it was “taking what was on paper and figuring out how to do it justice on screen”. Sadamoto’s manga by comparison really doesn’t accomplish this very well. It’s drawn well, but it’s presented without the spirit of innovation that was so heavy in the series.

I don’t mean to bash the manga, but apart from using the same character models and a similar outline of events, it really doesn’t share that much with the series.

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Postby symbv » Sun May 01, 2011 8:13 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:My Eva is hopeful and positive. Hell, it's hope made manifest -- everyone who's died can come back to life (hell, even Kaji); the Evas and the SoLs and the Angels that wrecked everything are all gone forever; Shinji and Asuka are together, even though they've failed one another so terribly; Rei is there with them, watching over them, telling us their story isn't over; all of that is cause for hope, man.

Moreover, they've learned that giant robots aren't the solution to their problems and that they have to talk to one another and take care of each other and live. But that lesson kind of disappears if a giant robot goes and saves the day, eh? All of it goes down the drain.


My point is to arrive at the message of Eva things did not have to go the way EoE did. Perhaps EoE could bring out the message stronger to some people, I also think that it did not work as well for some others. Manga taking another path is a good sign that the story does not have to be so Anno...

And we are not even sure the giant robot could just fight and beat all the MPEs....

In the TV ending Shinji chose to stay with Complementation - it isn't even clear that Shinji had a choice at all. He is treated as little more than an example of the process of Complementation - which consisted if breaking down Shinji's link to reality.


This fits well with my understanding of NGE. The TV ending is Shinji being complemented. If people did not watch EoE, they would just take Eva as a story that ends in Shinji being complemented. Any hint of that not being all well and good is ambiguous -- depending on if you want to link it with EoE. That's why I have reservation of a strong concurrence view of EoTV and EoE.

View Original PostSeele00TextOnly wrote:In short: at least in this version of Shinji rushing in and saving the day (so it seems) it is at least being done in a plausible way and on the foundations of lengthy character development. In other words, superior storytelling.


Well said!

View Original PostSeele00TextOnly wrote:Moving on from comparisons, what I really would hope most for here is for Shinji to get completely eviscerated by the Harpies the way Asuka was in EoE, then Seele has to use Asuka and Eva-02 for their Instrumentality thing.


I am very sure it will not happen. Eva-01 and Yui play an almost critical role in Eva world, not to say Shinji will always be the main protagonist, not Rei or Asuka.

View Original PostJayfive wrote:We havent, this discussion is based on a scan of 2 pages posted on 2chan.


Those are the same pages I posted here in this thread? Not sure about 2chan, but if they are the same pages, they might have taken it from the same source I did.


NOTE:
Also one thing that many do not realize is that many think of Eva manga as some follow-up "adaptation" of the anime and so view it with condescending eyes -- the truth is that Eva is a product of a team which involved Sadamoto from the beginning, and the manga actually came out BEFORE the anime (94 Dec for manga vs. 95 oct for anime). So Sadamoto has almost the same right to tell his story of Eva and his version of the Eva world and story is as canonical as Anno even though Anno put in a lot of his personal angst, opinions, philosophy, psychology and artistic ideas into Eva.
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Postby Bagheera » Sun May 01, 2011 8:31 pm

View Original Postsymbv wrote:Also one thing that many do not realize is that many think of Eva manga as some follow-up "adaptation" of the anime and so view it with condescending eyes -- the truth is that Eva is a product of a team which involved Sadamoto from the beginning, and the manga actually came out BEFORE the anime (94 Dec for manga vs. 95 oct for anime). So Sadamoto has almost the same right to tell his story of Eva and his version of the Eva world and story is as canonical as Anno even though Anno put in a lot of his personal angst, opinions, philosophy, psychology and artistic ideas into Eva.


That's certainly true, but see my initial post on the subject. The problem here isn't that Sadamoto has a different message to convey; it's that he doesn't seem to have a message at all, and instead is turning the story into a series of stock anime cliches that don't work very well in the NGE setting. It's also patronizing as hell toward Asuka, which is damn unfortunate.

Going first doesn't give him a free pass. He's still gotta deliver the goods.
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Postby esselfortium » Sun May 01, 2011 8:37 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:It's also patronizing as hell toward Asuka, which is damn unfortunate.

I guess I can sort of see where you're coming from with this, but at the same time, I don't think this is any more "patronizing" than End of Eva showing her trying to fight it out alone and getting killed.

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Postby symbv » Sun May 01, 2011 8:40 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:That's certainly true, but see my initial post on the subject. The problem here isn't that Sadamoto has a different message to convey; it's that he doesn't seem to have a message at all, and instead is turning the story into a series of stock anime cliches that don't work very well in the NGE setting. It's also patronizing as hell toward Asuka, which is damn unfortunate.

Going first doesn't give him a free pass. He's still gotta deliver the goods.


First, I did not say what I said to mean you. I read your initial post but did not think it really linked to my comment about Sadamoto's canon status. Second, I do not agree that he does not have message at all. Even the so-called "shounen tripes" you talked about have some messages. Third, I do not agree that Asuka being patronized. Her view of Shinji-sama seems to be on the brink of going away by true concern shown by Shinji. Fourth, cliches is everywhere in EoTV as well; you like those cliches but you don't like the cliches in the manga -- though many like them and seem to get their message too (judged from what I read in 2chan, Japanese blogs and here EGF), so you can keep on your hating and perhaps you should just let those others love what they love

What I wanted to say is that like it or not, Sadamoto delivery is canon. Now if you think he is not delivering the goods, perhaps you should just ignore this part of Eva world.
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Postby Bagheera » Sun May 01, 2011 9:03 pm

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:I guess I can sort of see where you're coming from with this, but at the same time, I don't think this is any more "patronizing" than End of Eva showing her trying to fight it out alone and getting killed.


But, see, it's all about her there -- Shinji's nowhere to be found. Stand or fall it's on her terms, and hers alone. That puts a totally different spin on it.

View Original Postsymbv wrote:What I wanted to say is that like it or not, Sadamoto delivery is canon. Now if you think he is not delivering the goods, perhaps you should just ignore this part of Eva world.


That is fair advice, certainly. Like it or not it is what it is.
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Postby gwern » Sun May 01, 2011 9:08 pm

View Original PostSeele00TextOnly wrote:Moving on from comparisons, what I really would hope most for here is for Shinji to get completely eviscerated by the Harpies the way Asuka was in EoE, then Seele has to use Asuka and Eva-02 for their Instrumentality thing. That would be the most interesting and rewarding take on this, aside from perhaps a total prevention of 3I which could also be quite interesting. I doubt we'll actually get either of those, but either way I'm definitely looking forward to more of Sadamoto's awesome and incredibly ridiculously underrated and assailed manga adaptation.


I too doubt that Sadamoto would do that. It's just not his style. Neither he nor his Shinji seem to much care about Asuka*; I'm torn between thinking that such a switch would beyond awesome and thinking such a switch would be asinine as it wasn't set up or motivated by the story at all.

I'm willing to be precise about this; I think there's an even chance that Shinji or Shinji & Asuka will defeat the MP Evas (http://predictionbook.com/predictions/2630 presumably Third Impact will start some other way; Gendo as in NGE TV?), and somewhere around 5% chance that Shinji will be eviscerated and Third Impact center around/be controlled by Asuka (http://predictionbook.com/predictions/2631).

* I mean, look at the recent chapter. 'Oh hai Asuka I'm here to save you because Misato made me promise.' ಠ_ಠ

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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Sun May 01, 2011 9:19 pm

View Original Postgwern wrote:Neither he nor his Shinji seem to much care about Asuka*
(snip)
* I mean, look at the recent chapter. 'Oh hai Asuka I'm here to save you because Misato made me promise.' ಠ_ಠ

It's literally been 5-10 minutes in-universe time since she was bleeding to death with her arms around him. I think he can try to honor her with is actions and words without folks getting up in his face about his motives. Also, he obviously cares about Asuka too; I mean he's there, isn't he? He tried his hardest to get the Eva to work and to get out there and help.
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Postby esselfortium » Sun May 01, 2011 10:59 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:But, see, it's all about her there -- Shinji's nowhere to be found. Stand or fall it's on her terms, and hers alone. That puts a totally different spin on it.

Does it, though? In EoE, the entire battle is intercut with footage of Shinji being useless, some of it spent even listening to her fight, to remind you that she's getting killed because there's no one else out there who can help her.

I don't think Shinji actually managing to get there in time and save her (or -- at least -- attempt to) really changes that message. In either version, she tried and failed to do it on her own, but not before putting up a respectable fight. I really don't think she needs to get mangled for a story to not be seen as spitting upon her worth and independence...

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Postby Carl Horn » Mon May 02, 2011 12:21 am

In the manga, Shinji didn't beat off over the comatose Asuka; instead he begged her to awaken and be the Asuka he used to know, saying "This isn't the Asuka I want to protect!" So I think it's pretty clear Sadamoto's Shinji cares about Asuka. And where does this idea come from that it's an insult to Asuka to have Shinji back her up? They're supposed to work together as pilots; that's something their superiors were always trying to pound into their heads (especially Asuka's head). It's not like Asuka didn't acquit herself well against the Mass Production units, but in the end, she was overwhelmed. Saying she's shown as weak for needing assistance at that point would indeed be an insult to Asuka.

Like it or not, Sadamoto is not just "the guy who happened to draw what the characters in the anime look like." He is the co-creator of those characters (and continues to be, with Mari Makinami) together with Anno; the essential artist needed for what is, after all, a visual medium, and without Sadamoto, Evangelion is a radio drama. To many people in Japan unfamiliar with the minutiae of Eva's plots, what Sadamoto did--that is, the characters and their likenesses--is Evangelion.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Mon May 02, 2011 12:29 am

Interesting, interesting stuff in that image. I admit, seeing it made me pretty pumped and let out a mental "FUCK YEAH!"--but I do have the sinking feeling that either Shinji or Asuka are going to somehow die. The aforementioned idea of Shinji somehow getting killed and GNR hands Asuka the Instrumentality Keys is a nice twist, or some other unforeseen difference--perhaps Rei 3 DOESN'T leave Gendo for Shinji and starts up his version of 3I after all?! Whether or not Rei would change her mind about who's in charge once the process is in motion, who knows of course, but...damn that'd be neat. (I think somebody (me??) once suggested it'd be a fucked up twist if in the very end, Shinji/whoever accepts Instrumentality in the Manga...but I'd certainly hope not with how things are shaping up to be so far.)

This is pretty exciting stuff regardless, probably because Sadamoto's finally doing something vastly different instead of just slight EoE variation after slight EoE variation (yes, yes, I know there was AT Field!Gendo and some other minor WTF differences). Looking forward to seeing how things play out in the next Stages! :) C'mon Sadamoto, don't stop now~!

EDIT: By the way, Carl: I do agree with you that whether or not you like Sadamoto's manga (I'm somewhat so-so about it, but I do agree a few things are improvements from NGE Anime), you can't deny Sadamoto's importance to Eva overall. (Hell, he helped Anno decide to make Shinji a boy instead of another Noriko (Nadia? :smirk: ) or what have you.) Also, it might sound weird now, but seriously, thanks so much for being cool with the various fan translations/etc over the years until each Manga Volume is released Stateside. I guess it helps that you're a fellow fan, but it's certainly appreciated that you're fine with that. ^_^
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Postby Bagheera » Mon May 02, 2011 6:05 am

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:Does it, though? In EoE, the entire battle is intercut with footage of Shinji being useless, some of it spent even listening to her fight, to remind you that she's getting killed because there's no one else out there who can help her.


That shows us how she's affecting him, though. From her perspective she's still going it alone.

I don't think Shinji actually managing to get there in time and save her (or -- at least -- attempt to) really changes that message. In either version, she tried and failed to do it on her own, but not before putting up a respectable fight.


I didn't see much of a respectable fight in the manga version. She just got overwhelmed and mauled from the start.

I really don't think she needs to get mangled for a story to not be seen as spitting upon her worth and independence...


It would be different if she'd had a chance to prove herself earlier in the series, but she never got that chance. Ever. Not once. I mean, yeah, she beat Sandalphon, but even there she had to be rescued (by Shinji no less) afterward. The EoE fight was her chance to really shine. And she did, even if things ultimately ended badly for her (and even then only because her Eva ran out of power and the MPEs reactivated and they were using Lances).

All I'm getting at is that there were very good reasons for why Anno handled things the way he did, and it doesn't seem to me that Sadamoto's approaching things with the same level of care. This has always been a problem with his handling of Asuka (as well as many other things). It's just becoming more and more apparent as time goes by.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.


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