Come Sweet Death Question !!!

For serious and at times in-depth discussions only, covering the original TV series, the movies End of Evangelion and Death & Rebirth.

Moderator: Board Staff

Gletscher
Embryo
Age: 28
Posts: 2
Joined: Mar 24, 2011
Gender: Male

Come Sweet Death Question !!!

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Gletscher » Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:30 am

Come Sweet Death is what Rei feels to Shinji, Right?

Is it true that Shinji tried to kill Asuka or it's only what Shinji imagine?
( in the first scene of this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8XsGCyzOD4)

Thank you
(Forgive my bad English using -*-)

BiQ
Sahaquiel
Sahaquiel
User avatar
Age: 39
Posts: 642
Joined: Sep 02, 2010
Location: Finland

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby BiQ » Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:00 am

I have never felt that Rei was really in any way really relevant in that song or its connection to the characters in that scene. I think it's mostly about Shinji's and Asuka's failures towards everything and everyone, most of all themselves and each other.

But then again, my vision is sometimes foggied by S/A shipping glasses, so what do I know...

And I do think that the kitchen scene actually happened between real Asuka and Shinji, because
EoE  SPOILER: Show
Asuka's caress

in One More Final doesn't make much sense to me otherwise.

The disclaimer above holds here too.

Gletscher
Embryo
Age: 28
Posts: 2
Joined: Mar 24, 2011
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Gletscher » Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:01 am

I saw that Asuka and Shinji are talking together normally after that episode (kiss) although they wear the same dress in both events.

And In Come Sweet Death lyric , there are two words I suspect : you and I ?? who is "I" who is "you" that I'm confused

****
[part of Come Sweet Death]
I wish that I could turn back time ‘Cos now the guilt is all mine
Can't live without The trust from those you love
I know we can't forget the past You can't forget love and pride
Because of that, it's killing me inside
****

or this music isn't only for Evangelion?

Allemann
Pilot Candidate
Pilot Candidate
Age: 33
Posts: 1779
Joined: Jun 26, 2009
Location: Europe

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Allemann » Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:24 am

The show is deliciously nihilistic. :devil:

FreakyFilmFan4ever
(In)Sufficient Director
(In)Sufficient Director
User avatar
Age: 33
Posts: 9273
Joined: Jun 09, 2009
Location: Playing amongst the stars
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:32 am

I always felt that the song dealt specifically with Shinji and how he felt about the rest of the world in general. Though that's not to say Asuka's influence would have impacted his world view greatly. After all, she's both the first and last thing you either see or hear during the song's duration, with other voices and people coming across Shinji's path in between.

View Original PostBiQ wrote:And I do think that the kitchen scene actually happened between real Asuka and Shinji, because

See, I always thought that Shinji and Asuka were experiencing the same things during Third Impact, seeing as how all the minds and souls were in the process of becoming one entity. So it could be that Asuka doesn't remember it from real life, but from the experience she shared with Shinji as their separate souls tried to become one.

BiQ
Sahaquiel
Sahaquiel
User avatar
Age: 39
Posts: 642
Joined: Sep 02, 2010
Location: Finland

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby BiQ » Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:07 am

Okay, I should have been clearer... what I meant by this
BiQ wrote:And I do think that the kitchen scene actually happened between real Asuka and Shinji

I meant it happened in pre-instrumentality between Shinji and Asuka, not between Shinji and Asuka-in-Shinji's-mind. Dropping that 'actually' in there was my mistake, I didn't mean to say I think it to be any kind of flashback to events prior to EoE (I don't think it was).

And yes, it's foremost about Shinji's feelings. Though I have no problems connecting some of the messages onto Asuka too, considering their inner similarities and failures.

rhfxz1s
Sachiel
Sachiel
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 201
Joined: Jan 01, 2011
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby rhfxz1s » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:37 am

I think stuff like this is generally designed to be open to interpretation, but I always saw the lyrics as a reflection of Shinji's feelings. His strangling of Asuka was a metaphorical one; it was basically Shinji saying, "fuck this, I'm done with you and I'm done with the world". I guess it could apply to Asuka as well, though I never really thought about it.

Kendrix
Defender of Puppy Boy
Defender of Puppy Boy
User avatar
Age: 27
Posts: 5589
Joined: Jul 27, 2010
Location: Germany
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Kendrix » Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:44 pm

The song is more meant to be from Shinji's than from Rei's perspective, I think. (I think "Beautiful World" is meant to be from Rei's PoV, tough. Not sure about thanathos, could really be any of the characters, judging by how sucky the world had become at this point - It IS derived from a Rei-related music, but some official vid put "Thanatos" with Misato, If I remember correctly...)
but nah, forget my rambling, "Come sweet death" is definitely Shinji/his feelings during TI. I don't see how it could relate to Rei...
The "You" in the lines you pointed out is more a "general you" as in "vegatables are good for you" or "You can't divide through zero", these lines are general statements.

The "chocking scene" was sort of in their heads, as I got it - EVA 01 turned into that tree of life thing, and Shinji seems to be comming into contact with the minds of the dead/ the ppl who were already collected by spectral Rei's.
They are sort of discharging all their pent-up anger/ saying all the accusations that remained unsaid - this is the process of merging, tough, they can't yet see anything inside the other's heads. (Or else Shinji would have seen Asuka's inner feelings for him)
It sort of sums up their relationship/ why it didn't work, why they are so displeased with each other etc.
At the end, Shinji pleas not to be rejected turned into hate (The outside-world manifestation of that hate being the fap scene where he sort of got himself what she's been denying him)
Asuka also stands for others in general and the pain/misunderstandings that occassionally come from being with others, so by killing her, he is giving up on living with others, and also, on his last hope that he could find love.
Alas poor Kaworu! I knew him well...
Todo list:
- Essay on the character's roles in each others introspec sequences
- Good faith Analysis of Mari
- Finish ep 8 commentary

FreakyFilmFan4ever
(In)Sufficient Director
(In)Sufficient Director
User avatar
Age: 33
Posts: 9273
Joined: Jun 09, 2009
Location: Playing amongst the stars
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:20 pm

View Original PostBiQ wrote:I meant it happened in pre-instrumentality between Shinji and Asuka, not between Shinji and Asuka-in-Shinji's-mind. Dropping that 'actually' in there was my mistake, I didn't mean to say I think it to be any kind of flashback to events prior to EoE (I don't think it was).

I knew what it was you meant. I'm just saying I'm of the opinion that they both experienced that strangling moment during instrumentality rather than that pre-instrumentality scene after Asuka finds out about Kaji's death. Seeing as how Asuka was also going through Third Impact like Shinji would, she would also remember this moment of Third Impact, because it felt to me that all of the footage throughout Third Impact was all of the characters' desires or struggles being manifested in visual form for the others within Third Impact to view and experience in a first hand way. So in a sense, Shinji did actually strangle Asuka, and Asuka actually did feel it, but only because it all took place during Instrumentality in which they both were a part of.

But I could also be horribly wrong about this...

chaosakita
Leliel
Leliel
User avatar
Age: 26
Posts: 721
Joined: Nov 17, 2009
Gender: Female

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby chaosakita » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:02 pm

I think of all the possible interpretations of the song, the OP's is a relatively unorthodox one.
Avatar: Shinji and Kaworu get ice cream

FreakyFilmFan4ever
(In)Sufficient Director
(In)Sufficient Director
User avatar
Age: 33
Posts: 9273
Joined: Jun 09, 2009
Location: Playing amongst the stars
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:42 am

^ Yeah, I think this is a bit of an Anno warshak here.

gwern
Ireul
Ireul
User avatar
Age: 90
Posts: 667
Joined: Jun 02, 2010
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby gwern » Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:33 pm

I think it's very clear that KsT is not about Rei in any way.

The question is between Asuka & Shinji; after thinking and writing a bit about it ([url]http://www.gwern.net/komm-susser-tod.html[/url]), I've more or less come down on the Shinji side. One of the key pieces of evidence is that I can't find any sensible Asuka-POV interpretation of the other song for that scene, "Everything You've Ever Dreamed".

(One could argue that EYED was scrapped precisely because an Asuka POV was desired and EYED didn't work, but that's complex and there's no evidence for it.)

NemZ
Token Misanthrope
Token Misanthrope
User avatar
Posts: 15804
Joined: Jun 28, 2008
Location: St. Louis
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby NemZ » Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:02 pm

Probably because EYED sounds like a patronizing commentary from outside, whereas KST is more of a personal 'in the moment' sort of song.

Thanatos is clearly about Rei, seeing as it's the BGM for her death in 23.
Rest In Peace ~ 1978 - 2017
"I'd consider myself a realist, alright? but in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist. It means I'm bad at parties." - Rust Cohle
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
"The internet: It's like a training camp for never amounting to anything." - Oglaf
"I think internet message boards and the like are dangerous." - Anno

toe mash
Bridge Bunny
Bridge Bunny
User avatar
Age: 28
Posts: 1664
Joined: Sep 07, 2009
Location: Somewhere in [CLASSIFIED
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby toe mash » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:01 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Thanatos is clearly about Rei, seeing as it's the BGM for her death in 23.

I think she meant this version. Wouldn't really make sense otherwise...

gatotsu911
Bridge Bunny
Bridge Bunny
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 1646
Joined: Dec 17, 2010
Location: US of East Coast
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby gatotsu911 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:37 pm

Who says the song needs to be from any specific character's POV? The movie is well into its phase of free-associative surrealism by the time the song kicks in, and the song's presence marks the final destruction of individual identity (on an in-universe level) and descent into the subconscious (on a meta level). The words and feelings elicited by the song are relevant and evocative to the plot; what greater explanation is necessary? "Everything You've Ever Dreamed" would seem to confirm this, since it clearly is not from any character's point of view and is rather sung by a sort of Greek chorus.

If I were to proscribe a POV, though, it would definitely be Asuka's. Shinji has no pride to forget, among other things.
"I am shocked, SHOCKED, that a regular on an Evangelion forum would be a self-hating mess." - Tarnsman, paraphrased

"Jesus Christ, why are we even still talking about this shit?" - The Eva Monkey, summing up Evageeks in a sentence

Avatar: The Frozen Flame ~ Where Angels Lose Their Way

symbv
Elder God
Elder God
User avatar
Age: 52
Posts: 6513
Joined: Jul 27, 2010
Location: used to be TOKYO
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby symbv » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:11 pm

View Original Postgwern wrote:(One could argue that EYED was scrapped precisely because an Asuka POV was desired and EYED didn't work, but that's complex and there's no evidence for it.)


Well, we can always do a comparison and see how EYED fit in the footage used for KsT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESq2sW3gQG4
I never thought I would come back to Evangelion after EoE,
But I discovered Re-Take (or it found me?) and
now here I am.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Asuka FAN FOREVER
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NemZ
Token Misanthrope
Token Misanthrope
User avatar
Posts: 15804
Joined: Jun 28, 2008
Location: St. Louis
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby NemZ » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:14 pm

View Original Posttoe mash wrote:I think she meant this version. Wouldn't really make sense otherwise...


Yes, I know. It's clearly the same song, just arranged and with added lyrics.
Rest In Peace ~ 1978 - 2017
"I'd consider myself a realist, alright? but in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist. It means I'm bad at parties." - Rust Cohle
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
"The internet: It's like a training camp for never amounting to anything." - Oglaf
"I think internet message boards and the like are dangerous." - Anno

gwern
Ireul
Ireul
User avatar
Age: 90
Posts: 667
Joined: Jun 02, 2010
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby gwern » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:11 pm

View Original Postsymbv wrote:Well, we can always do a comparison and see how EYED fit in the footage used for KsT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESq2sW3gQG4


It's funny - EYED sort of works (like a line about the 'seven seas' syncing with a brief clip of a swarm of souls which looked like a turning school of fish) but also doesn't work, if you follow me.

I think SSD was right ([url]http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?p=330521#330521[/url]) when she said EYED was too slow - the scene didn't feel as shocking or energetic as usual, but more soporific.

(Going to add that YouTube link to my KsT page now...)

Jessemon
Lilith
User avatar
Age: 32
Posts: 135
Joined: Feb 27, 2011

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Jessemon » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:23 pm

Tbh, I got the feeling that Anno simply wrote it about himself (didn't he write the original lyrics, but they were modified for the actual song?) and put it into EoE because, well, it was a natural thing to do. The song fits Shinji as a character, but I think it's more a statement from Anno himself.


Also, I've always thought that the kitchen scene happened in Shinji's head. To me it seems to be a moment in which Shinji makes the realization that he and Asuka aren't going to figure everything out. Back at the beginning of EoE, Shinji asks Asuka to help him because he knows she can't answer, so even then he hasn't faced the truth about their relationship. If the kitchen scene had been real, then the masturbation scene would lose a little significance IMO (b/c Shinji would have already shown the courage to offer help/ask for help from Asuka). The kitchen scene itself is familiar because it's an alternate to something that actually happened. Only this time (because it's in Shinji's head, and not IRL), Shinji does the thing he would have liked to do back then. Unfortunately his mind forms a pretty depressing outcome (though it's an entirely reasonable one), and that's what ultimately causes Shinji to decide that he's ok with killing everyone.
"Your truth can be changed simply by the way you accept it. That's how fragile the truth for a human is." Hideaki Anno

gatotsu911
Bridge Bunny
Bridge Bunny
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 1646
Joined: Dec 17, 2010
Location: US of East Coast
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby gatotsu911 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:50 pm

I pretty much agree with everything da Jessemon just said... mon.

Also, looking at the Youtube clip it does seem a lot more feasible that EYED may have been conceived for the Instrumentality sequence. (I had always assumed it was supposed to go over the end credits.) If that's the case, though, I'm glad they had the wisdom not to use it as such, as it would have produced an entirely different (and far less disturbing) effect. After reading this thread last night I was looking over my Refrain of Evangelion booklet, which contains comments on each song from... someone at Gainax, it isn't clear who. The writer suggests that the decision to use a song with lyrics by the director at the climactic point in the film was influenced by Mobile Suit Gundam III: Encounter in Space. He also describes EYED as a "phantom song that we once planned to use as 'one other possibility' along with [KST]." The booklet also offers its own translations of Anno's lyrics to both songs (EYED's lyrics, in particular, are a far cry from the final product), which I will not bother transcribing here and now because they are long. I offer these bits of fact for what they are worth.

Fun fact, dunno if this has been pointed out already: "Give Me Wings" from 2.0 contains musical nods to both KST and EYED. Significant?
"I am shocked, SHOCKED, that a regular on an Evangelion forum would be a self-hating mess." - Tarnsman, paraphrased

"Jesus Christ, why are we even still talking about this shit?" - The Eva Monkey, summing up Evageeks in a sentence

Avatar: The Frozen Flame ~ Where Angels Lose Their Way


Return to “Evangelion TV Series + EoE Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests