Key of Nebuchadnezzer Speculation

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Postby Reichu » Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:41 pm

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:I'm going to be quite disappointed in Anno if he doesn't symbolically equate Unit 01 with the serpent at some point

OT, but why would Eva-01 be the serpent, as opposed to being, well... Eva (=Eve)? Eva bit dat fruit and committed the SIN FROM GENESIS, after all.

So this makes, uh… Zeruel the fruit-waving serpent, I guess. Which raises the rather provocative question: who represents Slappy Squirrel?
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Postby NAveryW » Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:48 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:So this makes, uh… Zeruel the fruit-waving serpent, I guess.
Tunniel's the more obvious conclusion. Without the mechanical additions and with actual skin and muscle, it pretty much is a serpent.
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Postby Baz » Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:03 pm

View Original PostNAveryW wrote:Tunniel's the more obvious conclusion. Without the mechanical additions and with actual skin and muscle, it pretty much is a serpent.

But its not merely a serpent, but the serpent that Reichu was referring to. Though I'm sure that she was only making a joke.
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Postby Azathoth » Sun Oct 24, 2010 9:44 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:OT, but why would Eva-01 be the serpent, as opposed to being, well... Eva (=Eve)? Eva bit dat fruit and committed the SIN FROM GENESIS, after all.


I was thinking Unit 01 as the external agent that drives humanity to throw off the protection of the divinities that created it but you're right that it works rather less well if you take the fact that Unit 01 is a human work (and a human, for that matter). Ah well, my off-handed remarks will have their flaws pointed out offhandedly.

Although come to think of it, the one who seizes hold of the Fruit to satisfy personal desire is Shinji, not Yui...but then again in the original myth Eve eats the Fruit of Knowledge, which isn't really how it plays out in Eva anyway. Oh well.

Also, when I describe Unit 01 the way I did above, I realize that she's the walking manifestation of the Psijic Endeavor, right down to forsaking the successful mortal race after appearing to fail them. "Reach heaven by violence" indeed...sorry, I'm drunk and on a Morrowind kick.
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Postby Tabby-chan » Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:30 pm

If we watch EoE, we all remember those awesome multitudes of Rei. These did not actually exist, they were merely "visions" or "flashbacks" that became others.

In the same way, the "Adams" from 2.22 were in the same respective way; They were merely visions. Adam being a Progenitor of Life, these visions of the FAR would be visible to others as well, including Katsuragi-san.

In Rebuild, I have two explanations for Adam. Obviously, the white thing underground is Lilith. This will never change. However, in Rebuild, there are two different possibilities for Adam.

The first, obviously, is the Key of Nebbuchanezzar. In the original TV run, the Second Impact reduced Adam to an embryo. Rebuild takes this up a level and reduced Adam to nothing more than a nervous system.

The second possibility is the EVA-Mark.06, sometimes viewed as the "True Evangelion". (However, Unit-01 may also hold this title) If we recall the scenes from the moon regarding her construction, Seele's Eva is nothing more than what appears to be a Black Lilith. It is possible that the Progenitors of Life all look the same, their colours and small designs being the only real difference.

In 3.0 and in Final, I can almost garauntee that either of the above is going to be Adam. The KoN serves no real purpose yet, but Ikari may be planning to use it as the Backup in case all of the Angels were destroyed, and would still be able to initiate Third Impact.
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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:41 pm

View Original PostTabby-chan wrote:In the same way, the "Adams" from 2.22 were in the same respective way; They were merely visions.

Interesting concept, though I can't help but feel the text that flashes across the screen in the preview for 2.0 that said "Adams" might conflict with that. Then again, I suppose a preview for EoE could have said "Thousands of Rei's" if they had wanted it to.

Edit: Ah, thanks for the correction Azathoth
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Postby Azathoth » Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:01 pm

View Original PostSeele00TextOnly wrote:Interesting concept, though I can't help but feel the text that flashes across the screen in the preview for 2.0 that said "4 Adams" might conflict with that. Then again, I suppose a preview for EoE could have said "Thousands of Rei's" if they had wanted it to.


It doesn't technically say "4 Adams," either. Just "Adams", and then it shows four of them. The thing is, the Adams are consistent enough in number and appearance that I wonder if we can write them off the same way as the tangifyer Reis. It's far more tempting for me to associate them with the four "children chosen by fate", the four Eva pilots we have so far (which would mean that the white giant, the one we're assuming is Lilith, would be associated with Kaworu - but there's something strange going on with the Central Dogma giant, and I'm not entirely convinced that it's going to end up being Lilith, and I'm not entirely convinced that it wasn't involved with Second Impact. Or who knows, maybe I'm getting the theory right but the particulars wrong and Lilith = Rei = the white giant, with Kaworu just being another one of the four Adams).
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Postby Tabby-chan » Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:24 pm

I feel personally that while we do need to consider the theories we have for Eva, we also need to disregard the rediculous things that would never happen. I used to think that "Third Impact" simply meant turning man into LCL and that was the end of it. Well no, not quite. Third Impact is actually a good thing now that I think about it.

In the same way, time will reveal the turn of events.

I do not think, however, that it really matters either way which is Adam. I think that in 3.0, Tabris is the final (and 12th, as in the manga) Angel, and that 3.0 will follow a little more closely to the series, yet also keeping that Rebuild feel. Kind of like this; 1.11 was virtually the first six episodes. 2.22 was a bit more out there, but overall still kept the its originality while still hinting at the original series. 3.0 will be like a fusion of both; keeping to the original while still holding its independance.

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Postby UrsusArctos » Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:23 pm

Bumping this because I found something that apparently hasn't come up. Nebuchadnezzar apparently means "God Nebu, protect my boundary" or, alternatively, "God Nebu, protect my firstborn son". (Emphasis mine)

In 2.0, Kaworu calls Gendo "Father". Could be just in the sense of calling a friend's dad "dad", but Gendo could be Kaworu's father in some other fashion- in being responsible for his creation, perhaps. In which case, the Key of Nebuchadnezzar is probably linked to one of those two, rather than to the Evangelions.
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Postby gatotsu911 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:37 am

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:In 2.0, Kaworu calls Gendo "Father". Could be just in the sense of calling a friend's dad "dad", but Gendo could be Kaworu's father in some other fashion- in being responsible for his creation, perhaps. In which case, the Key of Nebuchadnezzar is probably linked to one of those two, rather than to the Evangelions.


Was Kaworu's "father" directed at Gendo or Fuyutsuki? Or do we not know?
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Postby Eva 04 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:57 am

View Original Postgatotsu911 wrote:Was Kaworu's "father" directed at Gendo or Fuyutsuki? Or do we not know?


It seems to have been directed at Gendo. There would be no reason for him to call Fuyutsuki that.

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Postby UrsusArctos » Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:01 am

http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?p=389045#389045

For now, I'm assuming that the T-shirt isn't trolling us and that Kaworu really is calling Gendo "father", which does leave the possibility that he's Gendo's "firstborn son", maybe not in a biological fashion but in a different sense. (Gendo may have helped create him).
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Postby SaltyJoe » Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:20 am

If Kaworu's backstory is the same, then his existence is one of the results of Second Impact. If Gendo had a more active role in Rebuild's version of S.I., then this could be taken as him "fathering" Kaworu by causing him to be.

Yeah, i know this should have gone in the other thread, but it wouldn't really work without the posts preceding it.
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Postby Jornophelanthas » Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:29 am

Please remember that this is Rebuild continuity.

- Do we know if Shinji was born before or after Second Impact?
(I think it came up during the "survivor responsibility talk" with Kaji at the aquarium that Shinji was not born at the time of Second Impact, but I'm not sure.)

- Do we know anything about Kaworu's birth?
(No, we do not. He could be created during Second Impact, he could have awakened for the very first time in the last scene of Rebuild 1.0, or he could have come into existence at any time in between.)

- Also, don't discount Rei. While she is a daughter rather than a son, it has been stated in Rebuild 1.0 that her (listed) date of birth is the date of Second Impact, which would make her older than Shinji and quite possibly older than Kaworu (although he could still be her senior by scant minutes). Is the translation gender-specific?

So how do we know if Kaworu is Gendo's "firstborn son/child", rather than Shinji or even Rei? We don't.

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Postby KnightmareX13 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:35 pm

View Original PostJornophelanthas wrote:Please remember that this is Rebuild continuity.

- Do we know if Shinji was born before or after Second Impact?
(I think it came up during the "survivor responsibility talk" with Kaji at the aquarium that Shinji was not born at the time of Second Impact, but I'm not sure.)

According to my 1.11 booklet Shinji is 14 years old during the time of the first rebuild movie with Second Impact occurring 15 years prior to the events in the movie, so Shinji is was born post Second Impact
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Postby Trajan » Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:41 pm

Do we even know that Kaworu and Rei are even pseudo-Angels in this continuity? For we know they could just be mutated humans or something like that.

As for the Key and it's DNA-like structure, I'm in the belief that it unlocks or awakens an Eva's true purpose somehow.
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Postby Asuka 02 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:41 pm

it is Adam Indeed

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Postby Tabby-chan » Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:36 am

Well, let's look back at End of Evangelion for this one. The Key of Nebbuchenezzar could indeed be the very Lilith's Rei that is the Eva's "Instrumentality Trigger". Furthermore, Gendo DID say at the end of 2.22 that the "purpose has been awakened" or something like that.
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Postby Kodaemon » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:58 pm

I'm considering a possible connection to William Blake.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebuchadnezzar_(Blake)

While the similarity between Nebuchadnezzar's madness and Beast Mode was mentioned before, there's more interesting stuff here:

The image of Nebuchadnezzar is connected in Blake with the apocalypse in which the three people that the biblical Nebuchadnezzar burned to death were united with the Son of God,[18] and this image is also connected to Blake's belief in four states of existence in which those burned are able to transcend into the final stage of human existence.


"Transcending to the final stage of human existence" sounds a lot like Instrumentality, does it not?

Also, a brief look at [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Blake's_mythology[/url] gives us this:

Image

Which is another possible source for the design of the key, and would also link it to Adam.
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Postby Tabby-chan » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:28 am

As for the above post, I noticed that the diagram shows something resembling a butterfly in the center. I also noticed that there are 11 lines extending from this depiction.

In Kabbalah (which largerly influences Eva), there are 11 Sephirot (If one counts Da'at. Which I do.). Furthermore, Da'at, the 11th Sephirot, pretty much represents Instrumentality.

SO! What does this have to do with the Nebby's Key?

No idea.

Heck, they probably pulled the key from Gendou's scrotum.
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