Quickening Eva-08 [split]

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Postby Azathoth » Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:40 pm

View Original PostDanAwful wrote:I'm having a hard time swallowing this one myself. This isn't exactly Voltron here. ^_^


? It's not as if Anno is any stranger to two-person mecha. Even NGE contains dual-piloting, although not a mech designed for it. We know that dual-piloting has been considered in connection with NME. Why would it be so surprising to see it actually take place?
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Postby DanAwful » Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:51 pm

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:? It's not as if Anno is any stranger to two-person mecha. Even NGE contains dual-piloting, although not a mech designed for it. We know that dual-piloting has been considered in connection with NME. Why would it be so surprising to see it actually take place?

Good question. When I look at the movies I'm coming at them from the perspective of storytelling. There isn't really much time left to tell the story and to introduce a new element like this so late in the game with no prior indication of the story leading in this direction wreaks of pour storytelling. That being said, I'm not ruling it out as a possibility. Just as something difficult to swallow. If it turns out I'm wrong than I'll gladly swallow that bitter pill for all to see. :deadhead:

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Postby Azathoth » Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:06 pm

View Original PostDanAwful wrote:Good question. When I look at the movies I'm coming at them from the perspective of storytelling. There isn't really much time left to tell the story and to introduce a new element like this so late in the game with no prior indication of the story leading in this direction wreaks of pour storytelling. That being said, I'm not ruling it out as a possibility. Just as something difficult to swallow. If it turns out I'm wrong than I'll gladly swallow that bitter pill for all to see. :deadhead:


We're only halfway through! Even if Q and Final are still each going to be 45 minutes, which I very much doubt, there's two whole segments still to go and Q at least is likely to be primarily expository rather than conclusive. When the first two arcs of NGE were done, we still had no real exposition of the MPEs, the Lance of Longinus, the existence of Lilith, the dummy system, or the Reiquarium, among other things. Some of these things NGE addressed more clumsily than others but it did address all of them. There's still plenty of room for new information to be introduced into the story; indeed, I'd say it's necessary, given how sketchy our understanding of the plot is as it stands.
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Postby DanAwful » Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:16 pm

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:We're only halfway through!... I'd say it's necessary, given how sketchy our understanding of the plot is as it stands.

I don't disagree with anything you said. There is still a lot of story to tell and not much time to tell it (even if there are two movies to tell it in). But my original question still stands: do you really think it's viable to add a NEW element onto the ton of already existing elements that have either risen to the surface or are still waiting to be revealed?

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Postby Azathoth » Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:11 pm

View Original PostDanAwful wrote:I don't disagree with anything you said. There is still a lot of story to tell and not much time to tell it (even if there are two movies to tell it in). But my original question still stands: do you really think it's viable to add a NEW element onto the ton of already existing elements that have either risen to the surface or are still waiting to be revealed?


Yes, I do. Look at it this way. No matter what happens in Q, they are at some point going to have to account for the existence of Unit 08: which agency controls it, for what purpose it's designed, whose soul is in it (if anyone's), and who's going to pilot it. If, say, it turns out that the purpose it's designed for is "to serve as the vessel for the forbidden fusion of Adams and Lilith, blah blah blah" then it would come as no surprise that it could support two pilots. Regardless of whether it has or does not have multiple entry plug hatches, Unit 08 is going to require explaining.

And of course if worst comes to worst and there simply isn't time to think of an explanation or fit it into the movie (or whatever) Anno can always just ignore it. Bombarding the viewer with background information which is never followed up on and ultimately turns out to be superfluous to the plot worked well enough for NGE, after all.
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Postby DanAwful » Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:20 pm

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:Yes, I do... Bombarding the viewer with background information which is never followed up on and ultimately turns out to be superfluous to the plot worked well enough for NGE, after all.

Well, I can't really argue with that other than to say I don't think it's a good idea. That being said, I don't think throwing out red herrings will be Rebuild's M.O. this time around. So either you're right and I'm wrong in this instance, or I'm right and you're wrong or we're both wrong... or we're both right... and... I... think I just confused myself.

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Postby Azathoth » Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:32 pm

View Original PostDanAwful wrote:So either you're right and I'm wrong in this instance, or I'm right and you're wrong or we're both wrong... or we're both right... and... I... think I just confused myself.


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Postby DanAwful » Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:36 pm

:bow:

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Postby liquidus118 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:08 am

Something else I just noticed: since entry plug/s have been moved to the side, and the middle part is now completely gone, that must mean the battery is gone, too, unless they moved it. Does that mean 08 has an S2 engine?

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Postby Podferio » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:47 am

I'd say Eva 08 is like 06 where in this case it's Lilith whose inside. I like the idea of dual-piloting but it doesn't sound quite right to me. Eva 01 now does have 2 Cores on her right? And they are verticaly oriented so having the hatch horizontaly would mean the pilots are not entering a core or entering just one. If my theory is right on the Unit08 being Lilith with binders, then I'd bet Mari is the Pilot.

EDIT: I just rewatched and noticed that on the 2nd movie when Gendo was talking about Seele wanting to create a real God, he said that they must expedite the awakening of Unit one. Probably that's what Quickening means?

Offtopic: Come to think of it, they removed 02's core when they sealed her away right? Then how did Mari used 02 if it doesn't have a core?
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Postby Azathoth » Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:47 am

View Original Postliquidus118 wrote:Does that mean 08 has an S2 engine?


It has the halo possessed by all the Angels and Godmode Unit 01, so it's almost certainly got some internal source of power.

View Original PostPodferio wrote:Eva 01 now does have 2 Cores on her right?


This actually isn't made very clear by the movie itself. In its final configuration, Godmode 01 is shown to have two big red circles on its chest; but after being Lanced, we aren't shown whether the red circles are actually cores which are physically real, or if they were just some wacky energy-being shenanigans or what.

View Original PostPodferio wrote:If my theory is right on the Unit08 being Lilith with binders, then I'd bet Mari is the Pilot.


Lilith, on the other hand, has no core at all (although in NGE at least I was of the opinion that the core which was originally Lilith's later became that of Unit 01), so I don't know to what extent she could successfully be Evafied.

View Original PostPodferio wrote:I just rewatched and noticed that on the 2nd movie when Gendo was talking about Seele wanting to create a real God, he said that they must expedite the awakening of Unit one. Probably that's what Quickening means?


I don't think so, no. Quickening is a term applied to a pregnant woman in order to indicate the first fetal movement. Gendou's plan, as we saw at the end of 2.22, involves Rei and Shinji's souls merging into Unit 01's core. The quickening of which the PV speaks, assuming it applies to Unit 01 and her children, hasn't occurred yet. For the moment, Shinji hasn't yet shown any signs of life.
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Postby pen-pen » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:44 pm

View Original Postliquidus118 wrote:Something else I just noticed: since entry plug/s have been moved to the side, and the middle part is now completely gone, that must mean the battery is gone, too, unless they moved it. Does that mean 08 has an S2 engine?


I don't mean to bother anyone about such menial things, but can anyone explain what is an "S2 Engine"?
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Postby UrsusArctos » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:03 pm

In the original series, the S2 Engine was an organ that served as a power supply for the Angels- a potentially infinite power supply at that. Evas lacked the S2 and had to rely on huge umbilical power cables or batteries instead (except when berserk).

Whether or not Eva-08 has an S2 Engine, it's likely to have an internal source of power. According to the production drawings, Mark.06 has no attachments for umbilical cables anywhere, so the later Eva-08 probably has none.

Incidentally, considering that Eva-06 turned out to be named "Mark.06" in English, I suspect that Eva-08 will be named for some other biblical verse or chapter when the movie comes along.
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Postby Reichu » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:35 pm

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:Incidentally, considering that Eva-06 turned out to be named "Mark.06" in English, I suspect that Eva-08 will be named for some other biblical verse or chapter when the movie comes along.

Do any other books of the Bible allow for equipment-related puns? "Mark", and all... Well, I guess we could have Mark.07 and Mark.08, too.

BTW, I just found further ghosts of the S2 Engine in 2.0: as late as the storyboards, an S2 Engine specifically was what caused Eva-04's little accident. Furthermore, it was written with the kanji for "organ" this time around (albeit written BOTH ways in an earlier draft of the script, lolwut). Very curious. (I'll post more about the omitted material later - I just wanted to share this item.)
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Postby pen-pen » Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:06 pm

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:In the original series, the S2 Engine was an organ that served as a power supply for the Angels- a potentially infinite power supply at that. Evas lacked the S2 and had to rely on huge umbilical power cables or batteries instead (except when berserk).

Whether or not Eva-08 has an S2 Engine, it's likely to have an internal source of power. According to the production drawings, Mark.06 has no attachments for umbilical cables anywhere, so the later Eva-08 probably has none.

Incidentally, considering that Eva-06 turned out to be named "Mark.06" in English, I suspect that Eva-08 will be named for some other biblical verse or chapter when the movie comes along.


Thanx UrsusArctos, for clearing that up...!
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Postby Azathoth » Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:07 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Do any other books of the Bible allow for equipment-related puns? "Mark", and all... Well, I guess we could have Mark.07 and Mark.08, too.


It's worth noting, I think, that the gradation of "Mark" suggests an improvement or progress which "Unit" doesn't. In conventional military usage, Mark is kind of synonymous with "Type". If any kind of common sense was going into this, Unit 00 would be Mark 1; Unit 01 Mark 2; Units 02, 03, and 04 Mark 3; etc. In proper usage, a unit being called the "Mark 6" would imply that there had been five previous series of Evangelion units, not simply five previous Evas (well, six, but you get the idea).

All of which is a very technical way of saying that I do think the designation "Mark.06" is intended to be a Biblical reference or something of that kind. I can't see what precisely it's referring to, however. Nothing in Mark 6 really jumps out as an Eva connection. Verses 6b-12 interested me a little, though it seems pretty tenuous:

SPOILER: Show
Then Jesus went around teaching from village to village. Calling the Twelve to him, he began to send them out two by two and gave them authority over impure spirits.

These were his instructions: "Take nothing for the journey except a staff-no bread, no bag, no money in your belts. Wear sandals but not an extra shirt. Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town. And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, leave that place and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them."

They went out and preached that people should repent. They drove out many demons and anointed many sick people with oil and healed them.


...where Jesus would be Kaworu and the Twelve Apostles the Shito (with Kaworu making the last of the thirteen predicted by Gendou, I guess?), appropriately enough, with the Evas or Children taking on the role of the impure spirits.

View Original PostReichu wrote:BTW, I just found further ghosts of the S2 Engine in 2.0: as late as the storyboards, an S2 Engine specifically was what caused Eva-04's little accident.


I have to wonder at this stage if the removal of the "S2 Engine" designation was just intended to simplify the terminology a little or if there's some big change in Anno's idea of the Fruit of Life that occasioned the change.
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Postby Reichu » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:52 pm

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:I have to wonder at this stage if the removal of the "S2 Engine" designation was just intended to simplify the terminology a little or if there's some big change in Anno's idea of the Fruit of Life that occasioned the change.

For whatever it's worth, a whole bunch of stuff about the Eva-04 incident got cut, not just the S2 Engine reference. (Conversation between Misato, Ritsuko, and Maya; Fuyu's lines to Gendo were changed and a glimpse of Eva-04 on his clipboard omitted; additionally, there was some Seele dialogue that didn't make it to the storyboard phase.) I'll post the stuff once I've done the requisite shitty translation.
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Postby Sanctus Scorpius » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:14 am

Wow.
Eva-04 just continues to get screwed out of any possible screentime.

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Postby Reichu » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:26 am

View Original PostSanctus Scorpius wrote:Wow.
Eva-04 just continues to get screwed out of any possible screentime.

It's a plot device. It doesn't need screen time. Besides, omitting meager, pointless second-long glimpses has probably ended up being more profitable in the end. Think about it.
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Postby DanAwful » Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:15 am

I noticed in the dub preview for 2.22 that Mark 08 was specifically stated as having a "pilot" and not "pilots" as some people predict it will have. It didn't occur to me to check the subtitles to see if this translation is consistent. Anyone else know off hand if this is so?


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