Geez, look at the fuckstorm I caused. Seriously Eva 02, here's my advice:
I'll address some of the more relevant points.
Eva 02 wrote:
And on the note where they said Zep stole music... Apply this phenomenon to electronica, and its just stolen. Electronica does not require as much creativity, you just get lucky while playing around with buttons.
I'm sorry, but this whole section is made of massive fail. So you're saying that writing a blues riff based around a scale that's been pillaged and raped for a century-and-a-half (maybe longer) is more creative than working with modern technology to create new sounds, beats, textures, etc.? Really? I could pick up a guitar and churn out a blues lick in 5 seconds. Unless I use an auto-program on a synth or computer program I couldn't do this with electronica.
But, more importantly, the statement that all electronica is stolen, doesn't require much creativity, and is just "getting lucky while pushing buttons" is so ludicrously ignorant and false and I don't even know what to say. I'm not the biggest or most knowledgeable electronica fan, but anyone who's ever heard Kraftwerk, Brian Eno, Massive Attack, Autechre, Daft Punk, et al. would know better than to say such a thing. Like anything else in the arts, electronic music is just a platform, a palette, a canvas for artists to do something creative with. Since the arts have always been based on "stealing" from what came before to some extent (whether explicitly like sampling or implicitly like raping the blues scale) I don't see what difference it makes. But listen to something like Kraftwerk's Radioactivity
and you can hear the roots of Gaga and most modern pop music based on electronic beats.
Eva 02 wrote:
On the grunge note, when I mentioned that after the initial success of grunge, music capitalists raped Seattle.
Actually, music capitalists raped Seattle and created the initial success of Grunge. Nevermind was released on a major label and promoted with MTV, you know. I don't think they (record companies) planned on it blowing up like it did, but it was still definitely, at least partly, a calculated, manufactured success. Most major movements happen when record companies become aware of something having in the underground and pounce on it. The initial success just inspires more of them to do so.
As for them being talented, it's actually debatable. Nirvana were amateurs at their instruments, and Pearl Jam had the skills of a mediocre 70s hard rock band. The most genuinely talented individual to come out of the movement was Matt Cameron from Soundgarden, while everyone else got by on mostly selling an aesthetic, combining naval gazing depression with classic forms like metal (AIC), psychedelia (Soundgarden), classic rock (Pearl Jam), and punk (Nirvana). If you take away that angst-angle, none of these bands were really original, and I say that being a huge AIC and Soundgarden fan. But I used to frequent a guitar board where most of the most talented players looked at these bands and grunge as the downfall of music, citing that all the 80s hair bands, despite the silly style, at least could really play.
As far as feeling "soul", I don't know why that's a prerequisite for making great music. I feel no "soul" from Zeppelin, they were just cool dudes who turned out groovy grooves and inventive hard rock. Even those grunge bands I'm inclined to think that most of it was posturing. What did they have to be so depressed about? For Staley and Cobain, a lot of it was self-induced by their heroine addictions. If they'd stuck with cocaine maybe they'd been as carefree as the 80s hair bands (AIC actually was; they were a hair metal band before they "switched" to grunge. I'm sure that had nothing to do with hopping on a bandwagon, sure, it was all about soulful expression).
Eva 02 wrote:
Lady Gaga is mass-marketed hypnotism.
Yeah, but it's being manipulated by Gaga herself. That's what makes her so friggin' brilliant. She is kinda the epitome of this technological, ADD age, finding ways to show people things that feel new and original in a time where we're inundated with media and images. Does she have me entranced? Yes, but I admit it! I can't watch her videos and look away. They're fascinating. The image she's created and continues to elaborate on, change, manipulate, etc. is quite unlike anything I've ever seen. Sure, Alice Cooper invented shock rock and Madonna pushed the envelope on sex, style, and the music video, but they look downright time next to Gaga's extravagance. Her videos look like what would happen if a Circus Sideshow and Vegas act exploded and landed on Broadway. I mean, it's imagery overload in the age of imagery overload, and that's friggin' impressive.
As for the music, yeah, I'm not as impressed, but I don't think it's particularly bad either. It's pretty standard electronic pop, but Merri's right in that you're making a mountain out of a molehill. Gaga isn't just a musical artist she's a visual artist who happens to make music. I don't see anything wrong with that. Usually, hybrid mediums/artists aren't as adept as those that simply concentrate on one aspect, and I can accept that. But, for the last time, she doesn't STEAL, she SAMPLES. This is an OLD practice, and you make it out like she uses samples in every single song and that those samples constitutes the entire song; this is hardly the case. A lot of sampling is mixed into the background and not even used as the main hook, melody, beat, etc.
Did you even check out the samples in that link? Here's
the page for Poker Face. You know what Gaga samples? The part that goes "MaMaMaMa". Yeah, a <2 second clip that has nothing to do with either the beat or melody. Here's
the one for Paparazzi. The sample doesn't even appear until 5 minutes into the song!
Know what it is? A two note slide. Oh, you're right, what a thief! This is far more egregious than basing entire songs on a blues riff that's been done a gazillion times!
Eva 02 wrote:
And I am not "stuck in the moment" or whatever generic non-sequitur Jimbo cranked out in defense. Do you realize Gaga's cluster of singles is among the best-selling singles of all time
Errr, you are stuck in the moment. Adults were saying in the 50s that rock & roll was going to result in the downfall of America's youth and the whole of Western Civilization. Guess what? We're still here. You're trying to make the same Armageddon case with Lady Gaga, who will just be another pimple on the collective ass of pop music in 40 years, no different than how we see disco now, probably.
I don't know what you think your link proves either. Are you telling me that every artist on that list has had some monumental impact on music as a whole? Hell Gaga's singles barely crack the top 30, Kesha and Black Eyed Peas are in the top 10! I mean, seriously, look at some of the best selling artists on the list: USA for Africa! The Ink Spots! Baccara! Village People! If anything, this is a list you DON'T want to be on if we're talking about having any artistic influence or longevity.
Eva 02 wrote:
A so-called metal head that likes Gaga more than Pan-fucking-tera? I DARE you to physically say that in front of any ONE fellow metal head. Go to a random underground metal show and say that. I know what will happen, they will fucking annihilate
anyone who says such trash.
Others have already addressed this, but that's why most metalheads are fucking morons and have given the genre such a bad name. I mean, right now there are two typical camps of metalheads: one is the classic "tough guy" that most associated with the music back in the day. They'd beat my ass, surely. Two is the more geeky/intellectual fans who have (for some reason) made metal an even more popular and respected genre. I obviously fall into the last group, and I'd feel comfortable stating this opinion around them since most of those types (Merridian's another such in this thread alone) are more open minded about music and art in general.
As for Pantera and Dimebag Darrel, I think you're suffering from a bad case of idolized hero worship and it's blinded you to how the band and guitarist are actually perceived. I had 20k posts on perhaps the largest guitar board on the internet called Harmony Central over about a 7 year period and the site was filled with all kinds of music fans and plenty of metalheads. Dimebag was respected, sure, and Pantera were reasonably well-liked, but you're really inflating their importance/influence. The thing about Pantera was that they came at the tail-end of the thrash movement. By that time, the sub-genre had already peaked with output from The Big Four of Metallica, Magedeth, Slayer, and Anthrax (I'd throw Testament in there as well), and death and black metal were just starting to hit their peak with the likes of Death of Emperor.
In one sense, Pantera WERE the Britney Spears/Lady Gaga of the metal world. They popularized it for mass audiences to an extent that even Metallica didn't. I have no idea why this happens, but I almost think it was a Johnny Come Lately effect where those that missed out on the initial thrash wave saw Pantera as a chance to "hop on board". Plus, Pantera spoke to the extroverted side of the angsty, depressed, 90s teenager who wanted an outlet for all their pent-up aggression that grunge wasn't quite good enough for.
But if I'm talking originality, creativity, technical skills, consistency, Pantera lags behind every major thrash band including some of the more unknowns like Kreator and Annihilator. Yes, I've heard every Pantera album and song post-Cowboys. Their two best albums, Cowboys from hell and Vulgar Display of Power have half-an-album each of good songs (the first half) and some blatant filler towards the end. Cowboys is flat-out bland and bad from Shattered on, while Vulgar is little better from No Good on. Their other albums are even spottier. Driven is where they tried to start out-heavying themselves instead of concentrating on writing memorable songs.
Dimebag was a good metal guitarist. That's about it. He's not even close to the best. Maybe he makes top 20. But my problem with him is the same as with Pantera; he wasn't doing anything even remotely new, innovative, unique, or all that interesting, and he certainly wasn't doing it consistently. I even used to play a lot of his stuff, and while I like a lot of it for the groove (especially Cowboys from Hell), most of it's pretty simple by metal standards. Give me Holy Wars
(ungodly good riff, that; more demanding than anything Dime wrote), Hangar 18
, Under a Glass Moon
, The Philosopher
, The Haunting
(Dime even said his intro in Cemetary Gates was inspired by Ty Tabor from King's X), and that's just the tip of the iceberg for some of the more well-knowns. I'll take all of the guitarists from all of those bands over him. For a pure guitarist, Skolnick pwns Dime (and most metal guitarists, actually). He's one of the only metal guys to make a transition to jazz, and it's fascinating to watch him dissect the differences and similarities.
I mean, the link you gave me of Dime at 17 was pretty bad. Really sloppy, mostly just EVH ripoffs. There's nothing there I haven't seen from TONS of 17-year olds, and I've seen many, and much younger (see Sungha Jung), far better. Watching all of those videos, much like Merri, I don't see anything that changes my mind about him. I mean, the whole "feeling ashamed for talking crap about one of the most beautiful human beings..." line is silly. I didn't even talk BAD about him. I said nothing about him as a person. He was a cool dude from all I've seen/heard of him. All I'm saying is that as a metal guitarist he was pretty good but nothing special. I'm far from alone in thinking that. Yes, I watched every bit of all those links, and it strikes me that you mistake theatrics for good guitar playing. I mean, the third link ("say he wasn't a god") is mostly just showing off. The 1 minute solo is his running his hands up and down the fretboard, the next bit is him fucking with a whammy board. What in any of these clips, specifically, was supposed to impress me?
As for even better guitarists, ask Ornette, he'd probably be able to give you even more links than I could. Those I did provide were off the top of my head. Ask Merri, he could probably help out too.
And, for one final parting shot, it's telling that Pantera started life as a hair metal band. Dimebag was Diamond Darrel once upon a time and they released such classic albums as Metal Magic.
I mean, it's not surprising since Dime's biggest influence was KISS, and they were always more show than substance too.