Was Kaji misinformed, or...?

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Postby esselfortium » Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:21 pm

View Original PostSix Winged Angel wrote:He holds stuff into himself even in Rebuild, where they were trying to make him tell them what Gendo's plan with Rei and Shinji actually was and he would only hint them. That explains the mentioning of the giant as Adam during the storyboard, and it really is no biggie to me. And I don't believe that Anno is such a genious to pull everything out of his arse in the last minute.

Actually, he pretty directly stated he had no real idea and was pulling it together based on what he could work with from what was already there. If Gendo had been intended to have any such plans for Shinji and Rei from the beginning, he probably wouldn't have treated them both like dirt under his shoe for the entirety of both movies.

Anno and his staff pulling things out of their collective ass and letting their fans believe he planned them all along is something he's been successfully doing for years. The same interviews you're citing even pretty much say that.

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Postby Six Winged Angel » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:47 pm

I was refering to how I interpreted this:

Tsurumaki: And Gendou replies something like "A little while longer, and our project is complete." I had doubts storyboarding that conversation, and sent Anno-san a series of questions about it. "So Gendou knew this would happen to Unit-01? Or was Gendou also surprised and troubled? Or was Gendou surprised, but pleased with the outcome?" I didn't understand the specific meaning of the statement, so I struggled to interpret it. Anno-san replied that, "For now, we'll say he aimed at this and things went the way he expected." I wondered if that was enough. For myself, I am still skeptical that even Gendou isn't really panicking inside, but...
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Postby Legendary » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:04 pm

View Original PostSix Winged Angel wrote:An Angel acts totally independant from the others of its kind, and that's a fact. Angels coming for revenge is not even a joke

It has been noted that each Angel comes in with a new tactic, and that this new tactic often revolves around covering for the weakness of the last Angel.

I don't see how instability would try to explictly kill Ritsuko at both times.

It didn't. First time, Ritsuko. Second time, Rei.

I don't get you

Then I'll make this simpler. Look at us human beings. Do we all live in the Hakone region? No. We live all over the damn planet. When it was still on the table for the FAR to be terrestrial (that is, living on Earth), they would have done the same thing.

In the original proposal Rei also has black hair

Cosmetic (and blue is visible in this hair, it's not straight up black)

and many characters where missing (Maya ect)

Only the bridge bunnies aren't present. Missing, or just unmentioned because they're completely irrelevant to just about everything?

or have major differences.

Fuyutsuki's age change and the mention of Gendo's overall plans are the only major differences I see.

Does that mean that they just thought of these differences on the fly during the development of ep 1? Proposal was created in 1993. 2 years of development had passed by the time of the airing of the actual series. Proposal has nothing to do with the final version and they shouldn't be compared by no means-

Yes, because a TV show that follows the first twelve episodes very closely and has interviews confirming that the biggest change (episode 4) was made up ON THE FLY clearly has nothing to do with its successor. As nearly every episode up to 22 can be traced to one of Proposal's episodes, it is obvious that it had a major effect on development.

You don't know that and you can't back it up. Rei's hair, skin and eye color are there to signify her difference from the other characters (as the staff says).

Like the way she has no parents, an element of Proposal?

Kaworu posesses the exact same traits and some of them (like red eyes) are evident from the opening.

Uh.... You do realize that everything is red in that opening, right? Looking at that picture, his eyes COULD be blue, there's no way to tell.

People are only basing themselves on the storyboard's mentioning of "Adam" whereas screens earlier, Kaworu tells Rei "you and I are the same."

And the drafts of 24 where Adam is in Terminal Dogma, and the bit in Episode 13 where Adam, not Lilith is mentioned, you know, stuff like that.

Rei's poem also suggests the existance of two moons.

Care to point out the lines that do so? For ease of use, here's Rei's poem.

SPOILER: Show
Mountain, heavy are the mountains
But that changes, with the passage of time
Sky, blue sky, what your eyes can't see, what your eyes can see
The sun, one, only one
Water, it is agreeable, Commander Ikari
Flowers, so many the same, so many without purpose
Sky, sky of red, red the color, the color I hate
Liquid flows, it drips, ripples, and pours
Blood, scent of blood, woman who does not bleed
From the red soil the humans come
Humans made by man and woman
City, a human creation
Eva, a human creation as well
What are humans?
Are they creations of God?
Humans, that which is created by humans
This is that which is mine
My life, my heart
I am a vessel for my thoughts
The entry plug, the throne of the soul
Who is this? This is me
Who am I? What am I? What am I? What am I?
I am I.
This object that is, is myself
That which forms me
This is the self that can be seen, and yet this is not like that which is myself
A strange feeling
My body feels as if it is melting
I can no longer see myself
My form, my shape fades from view
Awareness dawns of someone who is not me
Who is here? There? Beyond me, here
Shinji
This person I know, Major Katsuragi
Dr. Akagi
People, my classmates
The pilot of Unit Two
Commander Ikari
Who are you? Who are you? Who are you?


As you say, "until Gainax knew Lilith was part of the story". Gainax most of the time don't know siet about Anno's intentions for the background story (not that he knows much himself, but well, he knows something more).

I meant Gainax in the context of the whole studio, including Anno. It's obvious Anno knew Lilith existed in Episode 24, maybe even Episode 23. Did he know about her before then?

He holds stuff into himself even in Rebuild, where they were trying to make him tell them what Gendo's plan with Rei and Shinji actually was and he would only hint them.

Wow. Way to go Anno, make it hard for your group effort to accomplish anything, since proper foreshadowing and characterization are impossible without knowing a plan.

That explains the mentioning of the giant as Adam during the storyboard, and it really is no biggie to me.

Explain the scripts, explain Episode 13.

And I don't believe that Anno is such a genious to pull everything out of his arse in the last minute.

Considering how plot holes in 24' have been bugging people for years, the real thing you shouldn't be believing is that Anno is such a genius to pull everything out of his ass coherently.

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Postby Xard » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:05 pm

You both are right. Anno makes stuff all the time but the guy is a schemer too and really eager on keeping facts to himself.

I guess real reason is to let himself have more freedom to change his decisions etc. later on
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Postby Six Winged Angel » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:25 am

I believe Xard is right.

It has been noted that each Angel comes in with a new tactic, and that this new tactic often revolves around covering for the weakness of the last Angel.

What does tactic has to do with motivation?

It didn't. First time, Ritsuko. Second time, Rei.

No. Ritsuko makes it clear that Eva-00 was trying to kill her both times.
quote from ep 14:
SPOILER: Show
Ritsuko (thinking): Unit Zero wanted to attack me, that's got to be it.


Yes, because a TV show that follows the first twelve episodes very closely and has interviews confirming that the biggest change (episode 4) was made up ON THE FLY clearly has nothing to do with its successor. As nearly every episode up to 22 can be traced to one of Proposal's episodes, it is obvious that it had a major effect on development.


The decision that was made on the fly is the decision of the actual airing of the episode because Anno had neglected it at the start.

Like the way she has no parents, an element of Proposal?

I don't see how that makes her so special in a world where nearly all the characters where missing one of their parents

Uh.... You do realize that everything is red in that opening, right? Looking at that picture, his eyes COULD be blue, there's no way to tell.


this is the pic that I saw.
SPOILER: Show
Image

And the drafts of 24 where Adam is in Terminal Dogma, and the bit in Episode 13 where Adam, not Lilith is mentioned, you know, stuff like that.

I dont see any need to point out lilith on a storyboard she doesn't appear (13). And I explained numerous times what I believe about 24.

Care to point out the lines that do so? For ease of use, here's Rei's poem.

"The sun, one, only one."

I meant Gainax in the context of the whole studio, including Anno. It's obvious Anno knew Lilith existed in Episode 24, maybe even Episode 23. Did he know about her before then?

We won't ever really know it-

Then I'll make this simpler. Look at us human beings. Do we all live in the Hakone region? No. We live all over the damn planet. When it was still on the table for the FAR to be terrestrial (that is, living on Earth), they would have done the same thing.

What FAR on the planet? do you mean this?
SPOILER: Show
"The First Ancestral Race are said to be prehistoric (possibly Terran?) lifeforms responsible for Adam and the Apostolos."

If yes then you are basing off information for which we are not even sure.
As far as the actual series go, if Lilith didn't exist then presumably only Adam arrived on the planet. I don't suppose that she would leave the hakone geofront to take a stroll around and view north pole's beautiful sightings with her lance.

Wow. Way to go Anno, make it hard for your group effort to accomplish anything, since proper foreshadowing and characterization are impossible without knowing a plan.

Anno is a wierdo, we all know that he is, lol

Explain the scripts, explain Episode 13.

They are reffering to the bakelited embryo in episode 13.

Considering how plot holes in 24' have been bugging people for years, the real thing you shouldn't be believing is that Anno is such a genius to pull everything out of his ass coherently.

If you are refering to the fact that Kaworu knew that gendo has Adam, Well, it can be explained as such: Tabris senses a very big amount of angelic presense (Lilith) and a very small one (Adam embryo). It he had to gamble, he may as well go for the big one.[/quote]
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Postby Legendary » Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:48 pm

View Original PostSix Winged Angel wrote:What does tactic has to do with motivation?

Since Angels do seem to learn from previous attacks, it implies awareness of the situation. Awareness that one was killed might lead one to tend toward revenge.

[quote]No. Ritsuko makes it clear that Eva-00 was trying to kill her both times.[/spoiler]
Funny then, that Rei was standing right where the attacks were being directed. Considering everything, it's far more likely that Ritsuko was WRONG.

The decision that was made on the fly is the decision of the actual airing of the episode because Anno had neglected it at the start.

Uh, no, Eva was always a 26 episode series. It was just decided that birthday!wangst should be replaced with PTSD!angst.

I don't see how that makes her so special in a world where nearly all the characters where missing one of their parents

Allow me to be clearer then. It isn't that she doesn't have parents in 2015. It's that she has no parents period. Her birth did not involve parents.

this is the pic that I saw.

That's my point. Kaworu's skin, hair, and the background aren't all really that color. It's been run through a red filter. It's entirely possible that a full color image would reveal deep eyes of any color.

I dont see any need to point out lilith on a storyboard she doesn't appear (13). And I explained numerous times what I believe about 24.

You ended up doing it later anyways, ironically.

"The sun, one, only one."

That doesn't necessarily imply, "Moons, two, more than one".

What FAR on the planet? do you mean this?

Yes, but that does not make it wrong information, especially since apparently there were two AR's at the time. If the FAR were planetbound, then there could be multiple Geofronts, one for Adam, one in Japan, perhaps more lost. Not that it matters, since there WEREN'T multiple Geofronts until the Director's Cuts, which makes it a moot point. And uh, btw, Adam and the North Pole have nothing to do with each other. Antarctica is the southern pole.

They are reffering to the bakelited embryo in episode 13.

Seele has pointed out that if they were, retrieval would have been easy and assuming complications violates Occam's razor.

If you are refering to the fact that Kaworu knew that gendo has Adam, Well, it can be explained as such: Tabris senses a very big amount of angelic presense (Lilith) and a very small one (Adam embryo). It he had to gamble, he may as well go for the big one.

Or he could go for the one that Seele TOLD him was Adam.

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Postby Six Winged Angel » Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:48 am

Since Angels do seem to learn from previous attacks, it implies awareness of the situation. Awareness that one was killed might lead one to tend toward revenge.

That doesn't explain Ramiel's actions.

Funny then, that Rei was standing right where the attacks were being directed. Considering everything, it's far more likely that Ritsuko was WRONG.

Rei just happened to be standing in the position that Gendo was during the last incident. Did Eva-00 want to kill gendo too?

Allow me to be clearer then. It isn't that she doesn't have parents in 2015. It's that she has no parents period. Her birth did not involve parents.

does the presumable fact that Rei's absence of parents wasn't explained during the proposal means that they hadn't thought about it? No. Her first name was Yui too, during earlier development, which implies her later connection to Shinji's mom later. But if Rei was just there to be a Shinji's mom clone, she would look exactly like her.

That's my point. Kaworu's skin, hair, and the background aren't all really that color. It's been run through a red filter. It's entirely possible that a full color image would reveal deep eyes of any color.

You're quite wrong. The whole pic is orange while the eyes are totally red. Red is on quite on the middle of the tones table and wouldn't qualify for darker colours (in contrast to say, blue). Also, there is no tonic difference among the other characteristics of his face (like the hair, which should be normally a darker tone) to suggest just a hue overlay, which means that his eyes were ment to be red. And red is a very different colour from orange.

That doesn't necessarily imply, "Moons, two, more than one".

You can say your own interpretation if you like, but it doesn't neglect the fact that mine has a very strong and logic point.
Yes, but that does not make it wrong information, especially since apparently there were two AR's at the time. If the FAR were planetbound, then there could be multiple Geofronts, one for Adam, one in Japan, perhaps more lost. Not that it matters, since there WEREN'T multiple Geofronts until the Director's Cuts, which makes it a moot point. And uh, btw, Adam and the North Pole have nothing to do with each other. Antarctica is the southern pole.

My "Adam took a stroll" theory has equal points. Why did NERV chose to install its base inside the geofront? Getting Adam was kept a total secret from seele, who knew the angels would come. Ritsuko also states in episode 7 (if I'm not mistaken) before getting adam, that NERV's purpose is to prevent a second impact from happening again. What second impact can you have without adam/lilith and if this could be done with the evangelions why send them directly in touch with the angels?
Excuse me for that sort of mistype. English is not my first language and in greek the word for South is "Νότος" (notos) which at times confuses me.

Seele has pointed out that if they were, retrieval would have been easy and assuming complications violates Occam's razor.

Where do they?
Or he could go for the one that Seele TOLD him was Adam.

Lousy angels! They never do as you order them! Tabris btw is the angel of free will.
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Postby nomis1242 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:18 pm

Just some food for thought on the "which characters thought Lilith was Adam (or is this a plot hole)" discussion: Classified Info's entry for 3rd impact says
Nerv's personnel are told that, if an Angel were to come into contact with Adam (the white giant in Terminal Dogma)


Implying, IMHO, that all of Nerv are kept in the dark (*cough* or the writers changed their mind and added Lilith before Ep 24 *cough*).
Last edited by nomis1242 on Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:14 pm

^
Very good point, actually. I think this means that Kaji was misinformed. Although, Kaji misinforming Misato (intentionally or not; he very well could have been misinforming Misato on his own misinformation! -o-;) then having a change of heart later on (eg: assuming he somehow knew giant=Lilith all along) makes sense too. Basically, perhaps in either situation, he found out more of the truth on his own at a later time (or simply had a change of heart, since like Ornette mentioned, Kaji knew he was gonna be bumped off so he probably wanted Misato to carry the torch), which partly caused him to urge Misato to do her own digging?

Also, I think it's safe to say based on earlier discussions in this thread that Fuyutsuki and Gendo talking about Ireul being too close to Adam really was about Adam (the embryo needing some sort of protection from outside elements or what have you), not Lilith/giant in Dogma. Besides, in Episode 13, we weren't even introduced to Lilith/giant in Dogma yet, that was in Episode 15. Basically, I feel the episode 13 scene is meant to be something straightforward instead of having anything to do with a later revelation.

Whether or not Gainax/Anno planned out Lilith=Second Angel from the start (and/or) Anno decided on it himself/kept the information to himself during episode production at some point...who knows, of course. Unless there's some interview that flat-out states what the deal was with that, we're only able to look at the elements in-series instead.

I'm rather curious on what our Japanese friends think of the "Lilith vs Adam/what did Kaji know" aspect. Too bad there's not much of a Japanese Eva wiki. (Well, there was that one NaveryW found awhile back which is spam-ridden. :( )
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:04 pm

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:Whether or not Gainax/Anno planned out Lilith=Second Angel from the start (and/or) Anno decided on it himself/kept the information to himself during episode production at some point...who knows, of course. Unless there's some interview that flat-out states what the deal was with that, we're only able to look at the elements in-series instead.

Well, at that point I don't think it even matters. There does come a point where it doesn't matter what the filmmakers had intended, what actually matters is what is present in front of us on-screen. I mean, nobody believes anyone involved with Battlefield Earth when they said "Oh, it was supposed to be that bad" because the film was so obviously poorly constructed and targeting a completely different audience as a "Serious film" before totally bombing.

Though NGE is obviously different in it's circumstances, I think the same logic can be applied here. Episode 13 seems to refer to the same Adam that was referred to all the way back in Episode 8, and there's nothing suggesting otherwise. Everything else conveyed after Episode 13 must revolve around that pre-established plot element. Anno's comments about the subject really wouldn't matter either way because it was already set in stone more or less in the TV series.
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Postby Monk Ed » Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:16 am

If Lilith really were a retcon, then what would we be expected to believe was the reason the Angels were attacking Tokyo-3 even before Adam got there?
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Postby nomis1242 » Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:22 am

^ I don't personally subscribe to the theory, but I think it could be explained by the Angels going after the Evas.

Maybe this has already been mentioned, but it is interesting that Lilith doesn't appear in the opening credits (I'm not suggesting it's proof of the retcon, though).

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Postby Azathoth » Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:46 am

Lilith appears in the full OP (still connected to Unit 01, no less). However I'm not sure at what time the full OP was put together relative to the retcon.
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Postby Monk Ed » Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:06 am

View Original Postnomis1242 wrote:^ I don't personally subscribe to the theory, but I think it could be explained by the Angels going after the Evas.

:huh: That makes absolutely no sense. Ramiel continued to drill into the Geofront even when both Evas which were in the city at the time were aboveground and nearby. Ramiel's actions make it clearest of all that the target most of the Angels seemed to be after was inside the Geofront long before Episode 8.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:34 pm

Kaworu, who has the soul of Adam, didn't realize that Lilith wasn't Adam until he was looking right at it for several seconds. What hope do theother Angels have? Whatever sense they use to detect Adam and Lilith, it's not really able to tell them apart.
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Postby nomis1242 » Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:13 pm

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote::huh: That makes absolutely no sense. Ramiel continued to drill into the Geofront even when both Evas which were in the city at the time were aboveground and nearby. Ramiel's actions make it clearest of all that the target most of the Angels seemed to be after was inside the Geofront long before Episode 8.

:???: That's true! Then I'm stumped, maybe the Lilith Adam Swap Plot Hole Theorists believe "this is another hole that the swap creates". Can one of said theorists enlighten us, please?

View Original PostAuraTwilight wrote:Kaworu, who has the soul of Adam, didn't realize that Lilith wasn't Adam until he was looking right at it for several seconds. What hope do theother Angels have? Whatever sense they use to detect Adam and Lilith, it's not really able to tell them apart.

Actually, I think what Monk Ed was referring to is that if the white giant was originally planned to have grown from Adam's embryo, then there would be nothing of interest to the angels in Terminal Dogma until the embryo arrived.

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Postby Monk Ed » Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:30 pm

I don't think AuraTwilight was replying to me, but rather to the topic in general.
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Postby nomis1242 » Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:45 pm

Woops, sorry Aura. Re-reading my reply to you, it doesn't even make sense to me. D'oh!

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Postby Reichu » Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:10 am

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:Lilith appears in the full OP (still connected to Unit 01, no less). However I'm not sure at what time the full OP was put together relative to the retcon.

That image is from the original episode 23', which was released after EoE.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby tehbry » Mon May 23, 2011 6:52 pm

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:Yes, that's how the game works. (I probably mentioned this all over the place, but I own both PS2 and PSP versions of Eva2.) Also note that another part of CI states that Nerv employees are told the giant in Terminal Dogma is Adam.
tehbry is bry


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