Was Kaji misinformed, or...?

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Postby Allemann » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:00 pm

View Original PostSix Winged Angel wrote: And also, when Gendo and Fuyutsuki mention that the angel is close to Adam, doesn't Kaji see Iruel being at actually quite few levels above Terminal Dogma?


How do you know how much is the distance between Sigma Unit and Terminal Dogma?

It is crystal clear to me that they are refering to the actual Adam embryo and not Lilith.


The draft of the episode 24 refers to the white colossus as Adam.

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Postby NemZ » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:08 pm

View Original PostAllemann wrote:The draft of the episode 24 refers to the white colossus as Adam.


So what?

  1. That's a draft, not a final script

  2. If it doesn't make it to the screen it isn't canon even if it were in the final script/storyboards/commentary/other supplementary crap

  3. Even if there was RL confusion on the matter, the topic is asking for an explanation from an in-show perspective.
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Postby esselfortium » Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:50 pm

A recently translated interview with Anno, which seems to be referring to an earlier draft of NGE, refers to Adam as "another father there, Adam, who governs the overall course of events". This seems to be describing the final role of Lilith.

While, yes, the possible mid-production swapping of Adam's and Lilith's roles or separation of them doesn't directly affect the in-universe story, it can certainly affect our interpretation of it.

(Also, Anno called Adam "father". Incoming fanon implosion.)

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Postby Six Winged Angel » Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:46 pm

View Original PostAllemann wrote:How do you know how much is the distance between Sigma Unit and Terminal Dogma?



The draft of the episode 24 refers to the white colossus as Adam.


I didn't say how many floors, but Kaji stands at level 28 and he's looking the angel upwards a few levels above.

As far as the draft goes, recent rebuild interviews showed that anno propably hides information of the plot from his co-workers. He could as well be refering to Lilith as "Adam" just to avoid confusion. After all, it's only a draft-
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Postby Allemann » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:44 pm

View Original PostSix Winged Angel wrote:As far as the draft goes, recent rebuild interviews showed that anno propably hides information of the plot from his co-workers. He could as well be refering to Lilith as "Adam" just to avoid confusion. After all, it's only a draft-


These are assertions for which you don't have actual substance. When you go into the "probably"and "could" territory, you don't make your position plausible; you're hand-waving. And that it's just a draft is a weak dismissal. It clearly shows that from the start Adam was to be what we now know as Lilith, so there was no intentional misinformation as some suggested, but a realization of the plot how they have conceived it at that point.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:03 pm

Again, I don't see how it matters if Anno "probably" hides things from the others or not.
View Original PostSeele00TextOnly wrote:The bold stuff is complete asspull.

Nah. I just followed the in-universe logic of the TV series. The items you've only made clearer by bolding them for me really isn't that hard that hard to swallow and actually makes sense if we just think inside the story here.

Again, it's not how it got into the script, but it effects the script and the points you've bolded for me only emphasizes how this plot element effects the script. And like AshPhoenix said:
View Original PostAshPhoenix wrote:From what I see, Adam was encased in bakelite to prevent him from growing, and Gendo and Fuyutsuki did know Adam's location at that point.

I'm pretty sure the odd briefcase design wasn't just for "Ooh, look! Futuristic 2015 style briefcase!" aesthetics. It had to serve some purpose. And when taken out of the briefcase, that purpose needs to be maintained in a way that both doesn't involve the briefcase anymore and doesn't infringe upon the limited space within Gendo's right hand. It's quite elementary, my dear Watson.

View Original PostAshPhoenix wrote:If the whole thing boils down to the Episode 13 dialogue, then it should probably be discussed more in-depth. :chinscratch:

Possibly....
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Postby Six Winged Angel » Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:09 pm

These are assertions for which you don't have actual substance. When you go into the "probably"and "could" territory, you don't make your position plausible; you're hand-waving. And that it's just a draft is a weak dismissal. It clearly shows that from the start Adam was to be what we now know as Lilith, so there was no intentional misinformation as some suggested, but a realization of the plot how they have conceived it at that point.


I use such words because it is very unlikely that we will ever get to know. We can only make assumptions of what was actually going on during production-

If the crucified giant was originally supposed to be Adam that apparently grew to that size from embry form then why the heck do Sachiel, Samshel and Ramiel attack the NERV HQ for? Nothing makes sense if there is no Lilith under there (while Adam is away from Japan in something less than an embryo form) whereas Kaji being misinformed at the time in order to blind the audiance, actually fits in.
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Postby AshPhoenix » Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:40 pm

Six Winged Angel wrote:If the crucified giant was originally supposed to be Adam that apparently grew to that size from embry form then why the heck do Sachiel, Samshel and Ramiel attack the NERV HQ for?

Similar to what I said.
After searching a bit, I found this that quotes the Classified Information (saying that some of the Angels wanted to find Adam, but some others wanted Lilith).
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Postby Legendary » Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:44 pm

People keep asking "Why do the first three Angels attack Nerv?" Well, if you ask me, No Lilith + Biological attributes from Episode 2 + Psychological activity in Episodes 1, 2, and 5 would seem to equal = Evas are clones of the only other thing to clone: Adam.

The gap in the numbering system can also be explained in this way, and perhaps Misato's "Humanity is the Final Angel" is a call-back to an originally intended scene in which Misato/Ritsuko would tell Shinji that Evangelions themselves are the Second Angel. Hell, Kaworu's dialogue in 24 could be used to that end, and that's the episode where Lilith is revealed!

Kaworu is another easy way to explain the gap in the numbering system. Adam is the First Angel discovered. Kaworu, another element known to be in the story from the beginning and one that Seele's known about all these years, would count as the Second. In this manner, Angels are numbered by order of appearance.

It should also be noted that in Proposal, it is easy to account for twenty-eight Apostolos without resorting to Lilith; one need only assume that there is one more battle than mentioned (probably Episode 15, "Shinji's decision to pilot Eva again", which is a succinct way to summarize what went down in the televised Episode 19).

Voila, I have now made it such that it makes perfect sense that Lilith was not originally intended to be part of the story, and only came into being as part of that story LATER.

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Postby AshPhoenix » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:19 pm

No offense, but you're saying all this assuming that the giant in the basement was changed to Lilith.

Legendary wrote:Well, if you ask me, No Lilith + Biological attributes from Episode 2 + Psychological activity in Episodes 1, 2, and 5 would seem to equal = Evas are clones of the only other thing to clone: Adam.

But Eva-01 is a clone of Lilith. This is a major point in the series allowing Eva-01 to be differentiated from the other Evas.

Legendary wrote:The gap in the numbering system can also be explained in this way

I think that the gap was intentional. It could simply be that the viewers were to be kept in suspense as to what the Second Angel was until it was revealed to be Lilith.

Legendary wrote:Misato/Ritsuko would tell Shinji that Evangelions themselves are the Second Angel.

This doesn't seem to be very plausible, as Eva was cloned from Adam/Lilith, and as such is not an "original" being "planned" by the FAR (i.e., the FAR are responsible for the creation of the Seeds, who are responsible for the creation of the Humans/Angels. The Evangelions are of a later "generation".)

Legendary wrote: Adam is the First Angel discovered. Kaworu, another element known to be in the story from the beginning and one that Seele's known about all these years, would count as the Second.

Actually, the way that the Angels are numbered isn't set in stone. There are actually a few theories about how the Angels are numbered.

Legendary wrote:It should also be noted that in Proposal, it is easy to account for twenty-eight Apostolos without resorting to Lilith; one need only assume that there is one more battle than mentioned

Or we could resort to Lilith. Rather than "one more battle", the last one could just be Lilith.
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Postby Azathoth » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:21 pm

View Original PostAshPhoenix wrote:Or we could resort to Lilith. Rather than "one more battle", the last one could just be Lilith.


That doesn't fit with the proposal's structure, in which the last twelve Apostolos all attack at once - the genesis of the idea that turned into Asuka vs MPEs, I believe.
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Postby Six Winged Angel » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:26 pm

If say Ramiel had other buisness with the Evas he wouldn't try shooting them to death while still digging down the Nerv HQ.

Idea for mankind being actually the second angel is interesting but still doesn't explain why Eva-01 is special and SEELE expresses their dissatisfaction upon it obtaining the S2 engine.
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Postby esselfortium » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:27 pm

View Original PostSix Winged Angel wrote:Idea for mankind being actually the second angel is interesting but still doesn't explain why Eva-01 is special and SEELE expresses their dissatisfaction upon it obtaining the S2 engine.

Because it shifts the balance of power hugely in Gendo's favor, at least from their perspective.

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Postby Six Winged Angel » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:44 pm

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:Because it shifts the balance of power hugely in Gendo's favor, at least from their perspective.


Yes but if so, would they try to install the S2 engine to Eva-04? (which would anyway get to the hands of Gendo afterwards like unit 03) I don't think Gendo could do something that doesnt kill the whole humanity with just a copy-angel and Adam..

and as I said earlier, ep 22 refers to White Moon as a geofront, which subsequently makes the tokyo-3 geofront similar to the White Moon, which subsequently suggests the existance of another being similar to Adam.
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Postby Legendary » Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:32 pm

View Original PostAshPhoenix wrote:No offense, but you're saying all this assuming that the giant in the basement was changed to Lilith.

That's the POINT. That is THE VERY THING WE ARE ARGUING. You are saying it doesn't make sense because of X, Y, and Z, and I am vehemently disagreeing with you.

But Eva-01 is a clone of Lilith. This is a major point in the series allowing Eva-01 to be differentiated from the other Evas.

But we don't actually NEED that. Eva-01 could have just been special because Yui was inside and no other Evas had that (which is what Rebuild might be doing)

I think that the gap was intentional. It could simply be that the viewers were to be kept in suspense as to what the Second Angel was until it was revealed to be Lilith.

I do too.

This doesn't seem to be very plausible, as Eva was cloned from Adam/Lilith, and as such is not an "original" being "planned" by the FAR (i.e., the FAR are responsible for the creation of the Seeds, who are responsible for the creation of the Humans/Angels. The Evangelions are of a later "generation".)

So what's Kaworu's deal, then? He's a clone, just like the Evas and like Rei.

Actually, the way that the Angels are numbered isn't set in stone.

I am aware. But note that approaching it with a "Kaworu second" approach makes it set-in-stone. I suggest this theory in that it brings consistency to what ended up not being very consistent.

Or we could resort to Lilith. Rather than "one more battle", the last one could just be Lilith.

Not likely. The Apostolos are all going to AWAKEN; Adam was only the first. This implies that in Proposal-verse, they were all related to each other and not to humans.

If say Ramiel had other buisness with the Evas he wouldn't try shooting them to death while still digging down the Nerv HQ.

Then only Sachiel took this approach, and the other two showed up for REVENGE.

Idea for mankind being actually the second angel is interesting but

Never suggested such a thing.

still doesn't explain why Eva-01 is special and SEELE expresses their dissatisfaction upon it obtaining the S2 engine.

Again, it could simply be worked in that Eva-01 is the only one with an internal soul.

Yes but if so, would they try to install the S2 engine to Eva-04? (which would anyway get to the hands of Gendo afterwards like unit 03)

Perhaps Eva-04 was meant to be Kaworu's like how he has a special Eva in Rebuild.

I don't think Gendo could do something that doesnt kill the whole humanity with just a copy-angel and Adam..

If he's only trying to bring Yui back, does it matter how?

and as I said earlier, ep 22 refers to White Moon as a geofront, which subsequently makes the tokyo-3 geofront similar to the White Moon, which subsequently suggests the existance of another being similar to Adam.

Unfortunately, not quite. Episode 21 simply states that the Geofront wasn't built by mankind. Only in the Director's Cut does it add that the Geofront is identical to Adam's chamber, and the DC was made AFTER Lilith was part of the plot.

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Postby Six Winged Angel » Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:05 pm

Then only Sachiel took this approach, and the other two showed up for REVENGE.


Okaaaaay. xP


Again, it could simply be worked in that Eva-01 is the only one with an internal soul.


Then again, Eva-00 goes berserk twice and with a purpose, suggesting otherwise.

If he's only trying to bring Yui back, does it matter how?

He still coulldnt have with it any effect different than what the angels are trying to achieve

Unfortunately, not quite. Episode 21 simply states that the Geofront wasn't built by mankind. Only in the Director's Cut does it add that the Geofront is identical to Adam's chamber, and the DC was made AFTER Lilith was part of the plot.


If it's so then It's my mistake. But are you suggesting that geofront was actually supposed to be the White Moon and that Adam somehow got in the north pole with the spear?

Again, the presence of Rei and her revelance with the moon in conjuction with the Kaworu becomes another questioning factor.
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Postby Legendary » Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:11 pm

View Original PostSix Winged Angel wrote:Okaaaaay. xP

Angels do seem to learn from each other. Just saying.

Then again, Eva-00 goes berserk twice and with a purpose, suggesting otherwise.

The first time is blamed as mental instability in the pilot. The second happens when Shinji is inside. Both could be handwaved.

He still coulldnt have with it any effect different than what the angels are trying to achieve

Oh I misinterpreted you the first time. Let me correct myself then. Gendo very easily could. After all, human souls and possibly human flesh would be involved as well, whereas Angels are only trying to get to Adam.

But are you suggesting that geofront was actually supposed to be the White Moon and that Adam somehow got in the north pole with the spear?

No. I am suggesting that the FAR would have lived in multiple locations. Adam was originally just an Apostolo; a relic of the FAR. Even as far up as 21, nothing truly suggests that Gainax had completely deviated from the Proposal backstory.

Again, the presence of Rei and her revelance with the moon in conjuction with the Kaworu becomes another questioning factor.

Rei and the moon are a motif. Asuka has a parallel one with the sun. Is she also a Seed?

Rei had no initial conjunction with Kaworu (she is completely unmentioned in the Proposal episode featuring him), he originally had no significance besides his human form, and either way it doesn't matter because Kaworu in his present, Adam-derived form didn't show up until Episode 24, at which point EVERYONE agrees that Gainax knew Lilith was part of the story.

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Postby thewayneiac » Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:14 pm

View Original PostLegendary wrote:Rei had no initial conjunction with Kaworu (she is completely unmentioned in the Proposal episode featuring him), he originally had no significance besides his human form, and either way it doesn't matter because Kaworu in his present, Adam-derived form didn't show up until Episode 24, at which point EVERYONE agrees that Gainax knew Lilith was part of the story.


In the opening credits they are shown one after the other followed by the word "Angels". They knew from Ep. 01 that they both had the souls of seeds.
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Postby Legendary » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:01 pm

Ritsuko and Kaji both appear before the mark of Seele. They are Seele.
Gendo and Keel appear before the UN report on HIP. They are Instrumentality. Rei, Asuka, Toji, Hikari, and Kensuke all appear before an explosion. They are actually made of C4.

Need I continue, or shall we consider the possibility that Rei's appearance there was merely highly fortuitous?

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Postby Six Winged Angel » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:14 am

Angels do seem to learn from each other. Just saying.

An Angel acts totally independant from the others of its kind, and that's a fact. Angels coming for revenge is not even a joke
The first time is blamed as mental instability in the pilot. The second happens when Shinji is inside. Both could be handwaved.

I don't see how instability would try to explictly kill Ritsuko at both times.
No. I am suggesting that the FAR would have lived in multiple locations.

I don't get you o:
Adam was originally just an Apostolo; a relic of the FAR. Even as far up as 21, nothing truly suggests that Gainax had completely deviated from the Proposal backstory.
Rei had no initial conjunction with Kaworu (she is completely unmentioned in the Proposal episode featuring him), he originally had no significance besides his human form, and either way it doesn't matte

In the original proposal Rei also has black hair and many characters where missing (Maya ect) or have major differences. Does that mean that they just thought of these differences on the fly during the development of ep 1? Proposal was created in 1993. 2 years of development had passed by the time of the airing of the actual series. Proposal has nothing to do with the final version and they shouldn't be compared by no means-

Kaworu in his present, Adam-derived form didn't show up until Episode 24, at which point EVERYONE agrees that Gainax knew Lilith was part of the story.

You don't know that and you can't back it up. Rei's hair, skin and eye color are there to signify her difference from the other characters (as the staff says). Kaworu posesses the exact same traits and some of them (like red eyes) are evident from the opening. People are only basing themselves on the storyboard's mentioning of "Adam" whereas screens earlier, Kaworu tells Rei "you and I are the same." Rei's poem also suggests the existance of two moons.
As you say, "until Gainax knew Lilith was part of the story". Gainax most of the time don't know siet about Anno's intentions for the background story (not that he knows much himself, but well, he knows something more). He holds stuff into himself even in Rebuild, where they were trying to make him tell them what Gendo's plan with Rei and Shinji actually was and he would only hint them. That explains the mentioning of the giant as Adam during the storyboard, and it really is no biggie to me. And I don't believe that Anno is such a genious to pull everything out of his arse in the last minute.
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