Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [1]

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:32 pm

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:Surely there must have been ludicrous bitchfests about 2.22 when the camrip first arrived...
As soon as the movie premièred, shit started hitting the fan.

viewtopic.php?t=6953
viewtopic.php?t=6986
viewtopic.php?t=7095

and again when the cam came out

viewtopic.php?t=7256
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Postby liquidus118 » Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:13 am

I'm not really interested in taking part in some of the arguing going on in here so I'll just throw in my thoughts:

Overall I'm pretty much fine with the Rebuild series. I always expected it to be a simpler, quicker, more action-oriented version of NGE with some twists thrown in to give it a reason to exist. This is pretty much what we got, from what I can see. And - possibly because I only recently got into Evangelion so haven't exhausted NGE's and EoE's depth - this didn't really bother me. I found it interesting to see how they changed the characters, how they mixed, matched and combined the various plot points and fight scenes, and smiled everytime 2.0 made an EoE reference.

All in all I'm fine with Rebuild being a simplified mix-up of NGE with some bigger fight scenes and dumbed-down character development. No matter how good Rebuild was going to be it could never reach NGE and EoE's level of depth and characterisation, so I don't blame it for not trying.

Now, people who have been with the series for years upon years and have grown up with it I can understand hating on it. It would probably be like when I first played Metal Gear Solid 4 and realised the thing I'd been waiting for for 4-5 years was a poorly written trainwreck of a story that systematically took everything good about the previous 3 games and shat on it. This is especially applicable if Rebuild really is a sequel, whiiiich seems pretty certain.

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Postby soul.assassin » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:29 pm

Damn, I'd better give my two cents for this.

I have no regret enjoying the original and Rebuild. I don't care if these movies have been contrived for profit or not, that some claim it watered down the "true" intent of the story... all it really did was to entertain me -- I've rewatched both movies several times.

As I see it, I look at the original series and Rebuild as completely different flavors: one is "classic" and the other is "extra spicy"; the classic has the original flavors right there, with the products of Anno's head; "extra spicy" called for twice the action, the detail, and the obvious remixing of the entire plot along with many of the original episodes tweaked completely that you can only see hints.

Because of Rebuild's brevity (as we know we can't simply fit episodes 8 to 24 in a single movie), character development (especially the minor characters) is about the only sore point while I watched it.

Telling me that I should absolutely like the one over the another is... kind of missing the sense of looking at the Eva universe in several ways. To reject Rebuild as unacceptable part of Eva lore is also a sign of a lack of an open mind.

I mean, the voices that were there 15 years ago have came back to perform in a symbolic comeback concert, picking up the instruments to play the music that put them into the spotlight back then, to see the audience that they blew their minds away.

I look at Rebuild as much of an introduction and supplement to the original series, a way to hook in new viewers to reconsider the original and its apocalyptic conclusion that is EoE.

TLDR: Rebuild may play second fiddle to the original, but the performers are the one and the same, with the heart to be right onstage.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:40 pm

View Original Postsoul.assassin wrote:As I see it, I look at the original series and Rebuild as completely different flavors: one is "classic" and the other is "extra spicy"
The trouble is that a lot of people watch it and decide it's more like

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huSP7Ptc ... age#t=116s
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Postby die-yng » Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:37 am

Hi all,

I'm new to this Forum, but a longtime NGE fan.
The last 10 years, my interest lay in other more recent anime, but last week, while browsing through an anime forum, I stumbled upon a link to the Re-Take doujin series. Remembering having read the first 2 (and quite liking them) I decided to read the whole series.
Needless to say, after this I was hooked again. The next morning I dug up my old VHS recordings of NGE and started to watch them again.

I saw that Rebuild exists and went straight to the next video store and rented both movies.

I've just watched them, so my impressions are totally fresh (please forgive me if some parts may seem repetive, but I really didn't want to read the whole thread, just read the last 2 or 3 p.):

I really liked a lot about ROE 1.1,
It's great that Shinji isn't as much of a pathetic loser as in the original. Frankly the original Shinji was really annoying sometimes (I know all of you know that already..).
I liked the new animation a lot and I felt that the need to tghten the plot, because there will be only four movies, actually helped by skipping some of what I perceived as unneccesarily drawn-out.
Overall I felt the first movie captured the spirit of the original quite well and gave it a much needed "dedusting."

Now 2.2 that's a whole different ballgame.
I liked the new Kaji, to me he was a much more sympathic version.
I really liked the new Asuka introduction....

I really, really hate Mari, she is such a bland and generic character.

Of course I didn't notice at first how Asuka's part was diminished, but some things seemed strange, Shinji was way more concentrated on Rei, there didn't seem to be much of an interest of him to Asuka.

The fight wit Eva 03 really did it for me.
The Phoneconversation with Misato... I like the content of it, but the way it is presented seems totally forced. Why would anybody feel the need to make such a call, when she expects to just to a little test? And it basically announced that something terrible was to happen to her. And it did, what a surprise!

Okay, Asuka's suffering is part of the character, she wouldn't be the same without it, but something this terrible, so soon after her introduction. No. No!!

The whole story seemed to go like this:
Hey! This is Asuka, she's as likable and cute and hurt as in the original, but Shinji has only eyes for Rei.
She reaches out to Misato quite fast, but that's her story, now let's get her out of the way, so we can concentrate on the rest.

Funny, how the "new" Shinji changed back to the old Shinji, when it came to rescuing Asuka. He could at least have tried to defeat 03 and get the core out.
Usually I dpn't react this way to movies, being much to old and wise. When 01 crushed Asuka's container, I not onlyhad tears in my eyes, but I was really, really angry as well. Angry about the fate of a fictional character.
The rest of the movie went totally out of the way, concentratin g on Mari and Shinji going all out, against extreme odds, to save Rei. :-)
I have no problem with Rei becoming more human, but didn't it all happen very fast?

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2.2.. Ok what the heck was that??

Postby andyroo54 » Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:14 am

I just watched 2.2.. I'm not sure what it was.

It certainly was not neon genesis evangelion. Not that I was expecting it to be exactly the same, I knew it must be different from the series, but what I just saw..

I can forget changes like how Asuka was introduced (despite that ep was one of the best from NGE) etc, but the characters are so weak and thin.
They made it seem like Asuka has a schoolgirl crush instantly on Shinji, I mean maybe she did in NGE but she was such a tough awesome character that DID rely on herself.

Or that they swapped EVA 3 pilot with Asuka.. Stupid.. And the music when dummy 01 was ripping apart 3 was just stupid. Nothing anyone can say will change my mind on that.

There are a thousand things like the above that I just won't mention because I don't see the point and some will agree/disagree and I don't want to get into that.

One of the main reasons I loved NGE as a kid was the animation. ( I also loved the deep characters and mind bending story which seems to be lost in Rebuild) In particular I loved the eva/angel fights. I loved drawing them and I even drew some recently.

The best fight in the whole original series is where 01 "awakes" and kicks the butt of angel 10. The part where he stops the angels arm then pulls it right up to its face growling. THAT's intense. THAT's badass.

I might just be rambling its like 2am here.. but I guess what I'm trying to say is NGE felt real. The story felt real, the characters felt real, despite how ludicrous it all sounds on paper. It worked.

But rebuild does not feel real, it feels like I'm watching just another run of the mill mecha anime.

NGE never felt like that.

Does anyone else feel this way?


I suppose I should be happy there is new Eva right? But that's just it I cant be when it is murdering the original so badly.
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Postby Reichu » Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:52 pm

Attempted to split out the conversation triggered by Number-kun to here. Hopefully I left the right stuff behind, but splitting is an imperfect art...
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Postby penguintruth » Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:13 pm

I enjoy Rebuild thus far. It's beautiful and streamlines a lot of overcomplicatated elements from the TV series, removing some of the unnecessarily esoteric elements while still maintaining the same basic themes and characters.

However, I do not see it as superior to the TV series. The TV series goes out of its way to make you feel the alienation of its characters, like you're viewing the story through their lens. The Rebuild movies almost feel too comfortable, too well-adjusted, without a sense of panic and paranoia like the TV series, without that awkwardness. It's too streamlined for its own good at times.

It compliments the TV show, but doesn't replace it.

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Postby esselfortium » Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:32 pm

View Original Postpenguintruth wrote:I enjoy Rebuild thus far. It's beautiful and streamlines a lot of overcomplicatated elements from the TV series, removing some of the unnecessarily esoteric elements while still maintaining the same basic themes and characters.

However, I do not see it as superior to the TV series. The TV series goes out of its way to make you feel the alienation of its characters, like you're viewing the story through their lens. The Rebuild movies almost feel too comfortable, too well-adjusted, without a sense of panic and paranoia like the TV series, without that awkwardness. It's too streamlined for its own good at times.

It compliments the TV show, but doesn't replace it.

It is visually beautiful, yes, but I disagree that it's streamlined much of anything. Considering that it adds four Adams, coffins on the moon, space travel, international treaties, a new side character, new Eva units, and probably quite a few other things I've forgotten, I'd argue that it actually complicates just about every one of the least interesting aspects of NGE, making them even more esoteric and unnecessary than ever.

See earlier posts in this thread in the unlikely event that you're morbidly curious what I think Rebuild has done to Eva's themes and characters. :P

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Postby penguintruth » Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:15 am

I'm getting the impression that a lot more will be explained in time than in the TV series. And the movies don't feel like you're missing a whole lot of really important information that could help illuminate what's going on in the moment the way the TV series often does. At least, thus far.

But I get your point.

And I think I will check some of those posts out.

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Postby andyroo54 » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:13 am

Above

Both you guys seem to focus on the end goal of the Eva project, the back story etc.
What NGE was and what Rebuild is, albeit to a lesser degree, is a character study, the series is about the characters and their interactions. It is incredible the backstory with the Angels and the Eva's and the instrumentality project etc, but they are just a backstory. Rebuild gives them a little more significance.

Rebuild by its nature (Four movie length episodes) cannot delve as far as NGE did.

I agree with penguintruth.

Rebuild is like the movie version of a fantastic book (NGE).

The movie is never as good as the book.
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Postby Azathoth » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:19 am

View Original Postandyroo54 wrote:What NGE was and what Rebuild is, albeit to a lesser degree, is a character study, the series is about the characters and their interactions.


I'll put on my Xard hat right now and tell you that Rebuild is not about the characters but about destroying/deconstructing/whatever old Eva. Although I think he's reading too much into a quote from one of the seiyuu, nobody higher-up in the project appears to have any coherent ideas about Rebuild's purpose that are still applicable, so I also think there's merit in the idea. Anno's already done a character study on Shinji and the various reflections of his problem. He may be only in this for the money but I doubt he plans on repeating himself.

By the way, four 120+ minute movies wouldn't be too much shorter than the entire NGE series - although Anno evidently did not elect to take the 120+ minute route.
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Postby andyroo54 » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:47 am

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:I'll put on my Xard hat right now and tell you that Rebuild is not about the characters but about destroying/deconstructing/whatever old Eva. Although I think he's reading too much into a quote from one of the seiyuu, nobody higher-up in the project appears to have any coherent ideas about Rebuild's purpose that are still applicable, so I also think there's merit in the idea. Anno's already done a character study on Shinji and the various reflections of his problem. He may be only in this for the money but I doubt he plans on repeating himself.

By the way, four 120+ minute movies wouldn't be too much shorter than the entire NGE series - although Anno evidently did not elect to take the 120+ minute route.



Ok Maybe I should have said "to a much lesser degree" But I stand by what I said, and sorry but I'm not exactly sure what you are stating?
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Postby Azathoth » Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:48 pm

View Original Postandyroo54 wrote:Ok Maybe I should have said "to a much lesser degree" But I stand by what I said, and sorry but I'm not exactly sure what you are stating?


Rebuild is not a character study in otaku, as NGE was. Rather it's a mockery of how everyone missed the point of NGE, or something.

Moreover, there's no reason that run-time constraints should affect Rebuild's quality, being that if Anno had chosen to make it so, four Rebuild movies could easily be nearly as long as NGE.
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Postby Xard » Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:53 pm

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:I'll put on my Xard hat right now and tell you that Rebuild is not about the characters but about destroying/deconstructing/whatever old Eva.


I don't have a hat like that

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Postby xuefranklin » Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:08 am

I liked both rebuilds so far but seeing the ocean facility in 2.0 got me wondering.... if the oceans are red, does that mean that when it rains, the water should be red?

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Postby andyroo54 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:11 am

View Original Postxuefranklin wrote:I liked both rebuilds so far but seeing the ocean facility in 2.0 got me wondering.... if the oceans are red, does that mean that when it rains, the water should be red?


I know its an anime but..

It would depend on the reason the oceans are red in the first place. There is really nothing naturally that could make all the oceans in the world red. So we would have to assume that the second impact somehow coloured the water red.

In the anime they show that they are able to filter the water to make it clear again, however it seems this is a fairly difficult process so it is limited to a small ocean park, rather than filtering the entire worlds oceans.

Basically rain occurs when water evaporates into rain clouds.. Heavier compounds like salt are left behind when the water evaporates, that's why rain water that came from the ocean is not salty.

It would depend entirely on what the cause of the red colouration was as to whether it would rain red. It seems if simply evaporating the water gets rid of the discolouration, then they would have done this in the fifteen years since the second impact.

Don't forget this red ocean is only a rebuild add on, in the original most of the worlds oceans were ok, it was only a few that were red.
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Postby Baz » Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:41 am

View Original Postandyroo54 wrote:It would depend on the reason the oceans are red in the first place. There is really nothing naturally that could make all the oceans in the world red. So we would have to assume that the second impact somehow coloured the water red.

Some of this was already discussed in the following thread:
http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?t=9600
It's nice to see new discussion on the topic because, frankly, that other thread was terrible.
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Postby amplexicaule » Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:39 am

View Original PostNAveryW wrote:So my question is, if nobody's convinced anyone of anything, why does anybody bother to continue debating? Is it fun? Do the people involved feel like they'll "lose" if they back down? Is anyone still hoping to convince others that they're more correct?

I debate in EvaGeeks so that my father will praise me!

I couldn't resist that, sorry. In all seriousness, though, I feel like 2.0 could have done a much better job. There's nothing wrong with changing and moving around and streamlining (in all honesty I'm probably enough of a dork to get annoyed over that too, but...) but the real problem I had with it is that they took a lot of things out of context. It seemed like they were trying to push as much depth into Askuka in as short amount of time as possible by doing things like giving her a doll to remind us of her trauma and pointing to scenes about her past from the TV show, but all it did for me was take away all the depth that had previously gone along with those scenes. In particular, I thought the elevator scene was really bland taken out of context. I still understood what they were doing, and I think they were trying not to take it completely out of context, but without any communication of Asuka's lost feelings of self-worth it just kind of fell flat.
I'm kind of confused as to why they'd even do that, though. Asuka was such a central character to the zest of the original series that it seems counter productive to water her down like that. The rushing through her backstory, along with all the extra fanservice... it really felt like she was being pushed to the side.
I have two theories and both are bad.
1. They could be pushing her aside to be replaced by Mari.
2. They could be rushing through so that they can start 3.0 with the catatonic Asuka scene from EoE. Which is kind of one of those scenes I was hoping I'd never have to see again, you know?

Any other ideas as to what Anno's trying to do with Asuka? Or even just why they decided to switch Asuka and Touji in the first place?

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:31 am

View Original Postamplexicaule wrote:1. They could be pushing her aside to be replaced by Mari.
That was the impression given in some of the Complete Records interviews.

switch Asuka and Touji
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