Rei's soul(s)

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Postby berto » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:37 pm

The girl with an artificial soul and a body of light . How poetic...

Ayanami's air of mistery just thickend once again.


You know, human beings are, of all the animals in this planet, the single least geneticly diverse animals you will find. If you were to take any two humans, the single two most diverse humans you can think of, and you will find that their genetic composition is more similar than any two gorillas in the same pack.

The fact that angels are over 99% compatible with humans would imply that they are even more similar to humans than the apes. By that standard they should have identical apearence to men.
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Postby AyrYntake » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:23 pm

And perhaps they would, were they not Adamic beings instead of Lilithian. Being offspring of Adam grants all sorts of abilities that means they could well be essentially human forms altering their AT Field and hence their appearance at will (notice how Zeruel had degenerate legs?)
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Postby The Abhorrent » Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:10 am

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:Funny enough, quantum physics and mechanics both have a lot to do with Rei and her traveling forwards/backwards in time (book-end Reis, hell-train Rei too I guess) and appearing in multiple places at once (EoE) so Wave-Particle Duality is quite fitting for both Rei and to a lesser extent Kaworu.


Actually, I just remembered something regarding quantum mechanics which could actually be an explanation for Kaworu's apparent knowledge of what happened in the original series during the Rebuild films.

The Many-worlds Interpretation.

That's the general idea that there is a universe for every possibility. If an event has two outcomes, both occur in a separate "universe". Now if the angels are able to manipulate themselves on a quantum level to do things like time travel... could they know of and perhaps even experience the different outcomes in (all the) other universes?

Now here's the fun bit.... Anno's no stranger to theoretical physics. I haven't seen Gunbuster in all honesty, but I hear that relativity was used a plot device for the finale (move faster, and time slows down for you; get close to the speed of light and seconds for you are eons for everyone else). With that tidbit of evidence, I would say that quantum mechanics aren't beyond his reach.

So, rather than Sequel Theory...... "Quantum Multiverse Theory" for Rebuild?
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And before I forget, why Rei isn't aware of the quantum multiverse in (most) of her appearances. Easily justified by the conclusion that with fragment of her soul trapped inside Eva-00, she can't tap into the.... greater collective consciousness or whatever you want to call it. She has to be "whole", as I stated was the (presumed) case with Rei III.
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Postby berto » Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:56 am

And perhaps they would, were they not Adamic beings instead of Lilithian. Being offspring of Adam grants all sorts of abilities that means they could well be essentially human forms altering their AT Field and hence their appearance at will (notice how Zeruel had degenerate legs?)


Isn't it because they ate from the tree of life?

I wonder if Ayanami's soul was made to somehow resemble Yui's. Her body was made from her DNA maybe her soul was also made from Yui in some way.
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Postby Ornette » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:02 am

View Original PostThe Abhorrent wrote:Now here's the fun bit.... Anno's no stranger to theoretical physics. I haven't seen Gunbuster in all honesty, but I hear that relativity was used a plot device for the finale (move faster, and time slows down for you; get close to the speed of light and seconds for you are eons for everyone else). With that tidbit of evidence, I would say that quantum mechanics aren't beyond his reach.

The end of Gunbuster is about as much real science as the most recent Star Trek movie, having as much to do with "relativity" as the word "black hole" has to do with it. I'm sure Anno was versed in fictional portrayals loosely based on popular or used-to-be-popular theories. This is pretty much a must for sci-fi writers. But I wouldn't go nearly as far to say that he's intimate with theoretical physics.

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Postby The Abhorrent » Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:35 pm

View Original PostOrnette wrote:The end of Gunbuster is about as much real science as the most recent Star Trek movie, having as much to do with "relativity" as the word "black hole" has to do with it. I'm sure Anno was versed in fictional portrayals loosely based on popular or used-to-be-popular theories. This is pretty much a must for sci-fi writers. But I wouldn't go nearly as far to say that he's intimate with theoretical physics.


Are you implying that this article on the wiki (Rei's Ghostly Appearances and Quantum Mechanics) is groundless because there's no reason for Anno to have any knowledge of the subject matter? Between the (presumably) correct use of time dilation at the end of Gunbuster and the evidence presented in that article (both of which qualify as more obscure than the usual in the realm of entertainment), Anno is certainly familiar with the concepts within theoretical physics even if he doesn't know the math behind it all. Besides, there's no rule saying that you have to follow the theories to the letter all the time if you know them.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Sat Aug 28, 2010 3:33 pm

Isn't it because they ate from the tree of life?

I wonder if Ayanami's soul was made to somehow resemble Yui's. Her body was made from her DNA maybe her soul was also made from Yui in some way.


The Tree of Life thing is a metaphor for the fact that Adam is their parent.

Ayanami's soul was not "made" at all. It's Lilith's soul moved into a different body.
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Postby Ornette » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:59 pm

View Original PostThe Abhorrent wrote:Are you implying that this article on the wiki (Rei's Ghostly Appearances and Quantum Mechanics) is groundless because there's no reason for Anno to have any knowledge of the subject matter? Between the (presumably) correct use of time dilation at the end of Gunbuster and the evidence presented in that article (both of which qualify as more obscure than the usual in the realm of entertainment), Anno is certainly familiar with the concepts within theoretical physics even if he doesn't know the math behind it all. Besides, there's no rule saying that you have to follow the theories to the letter all the time if you know them.

I don't think it's groundless so much as he took a concept and just ran with it, regardless of whether it makes any scientific sense or not. And truth be told, it doesn't need to make complete sense. The concept that was used at the end of Gunbuster (and likewise, the most recent Star Trek movie) was artificially creating a blackhole and, much less so, the affects it has on time (lots of movies and TV shows use this concept, it's nothing new). It's something based more on science fiction than actual science; if any explanation of the process is given, it's just rubber science and made up jargon. Again, there's nothing wrong with that, that's pretty much the M.O. for science fiction. After all, you don't need a PhD in theoretical physics to take a concept (maybe one you read in some random article) and run with it.

Case in point, A-10 Nerve, Mother/Child relationship, etc. Lots of rubber science and jargon is used to explain how the pilots sync with Evas and why there needs to be a mother in the Eva and the importance of the A10-Nerve. Where did all of this come from? Sadamoto saw some random TV program that mentioned it. He took that idea and ran with it.

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Postby nomis1242 » Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:19 pm

If I may introduce another tangent to this thread...

What are the Reis that are seen in the helicopter and Central Dogma?

Helicopter (ep 9, departing from Yui's grave with Gendo): Sure, there's nothing to suggest she's anything but flesh and blood in this appearance, but it's a very strange place for her to appear. Why would Gendo bring her to Yui's grave? Then why would he just leave her in the copter?

Central Dogma (ep 24', floating Kaworu-style): She's glowing, levitating and she appeared just after a massive AT field was generated (although the last one could be coincidence). If she's always had floating powers, why hasn't she every used them before? Otherwise, what just happened to make her realise/attain these powers?

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Postby Azathoth » Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:47 pm

View Original Postnomis1242 wrote:Helicopter (ep 9, departing from Yui's grave with Gendo): Sure, there's nothing to suggest she's anything but flesh and blood in this appearance, but it's a very strange place for her to appear. Why would Gendo bring her to Yui's grave? Then why would he just leave her in the copter?


Gendou is her guardian, although he does a piss-poor job of it. Maybe they were headed to lunch, who knows.

View Original Postnomis1242 wrote:Central Dogma (ep 24', floating Kaworu-style): She's glowing, levitating and she appeared just after a massive AT field was generated (although the last one could be coincidence). If she's always had floating powers, why hasn't she every used them before? Otherwise, what just happened to make her realise/attain these powers?


It's certainly her AT field that's detected, and it's implicit that Rei III has fully realized her nature as Lilith where Rei II did not. That would presumably come with the ability to use Lilith's weirder powers.
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Postby The Abhorrent » Sat Nov 13, 2010 6:04 pm

View Original Postnomis1242 wrote:Helicopter (ep 9, departing from Yui's grave with Gendo): Sure, there's nothing to suggest she's anything but flesh and blood in this appearance, but it's a very strange place for her to appear. Why would Gendo bring her to Yui's grave? Then why would he just leave her in the copter?


Other than the fact Rei looks like a younger version of Yui? And to reinforce Gendo's statement that he has no pictures of Yui and that the "memories" (Rei is better than a picture, even if there wasn't an inappropriate relationship between the two) of her are all he needs?

Perhaps just because both were en route to the same spot for an experiment. I think (could be wrong here) we see Rei inside the central tube of the Chamber of Gauf at the end of that episode, so yeah.


View Original Postnomis1242 wrote:Central Dogma (ep 24', floating Kaworu-style): She's glowing, levitating and she appeared just after a massive AT field was generated (although the last one could be coincidence). If she's always had floating powers, why hasn't she every used them before? Otherwise, what just happened to make her realise/attain these powers?


As I've stated earlier in this topic, Rei III is the "whole" soul of Rei (having absorbed the fragment of her soul which was in Unit 00). As such, she may of been unable to access her angelic powers (which may include the ability to manipulate herself on the quantum level) because she wasn't "whole".

That, and Kaworu tells her that they are "one and the same" (or something to that degree) during what was their only face-to-face meeting. Not too sure if that's a director's-cut-only scene, but it's floating around somewhere. When it's revealed that he's the 17th angel, that implies Rei is an angel as well (well, so is all of humanity if you want to get technical). Evidently she figured it out before Kaworu made his attack and was waiting for him in Terminal Dogma (he glimpses at her in the rafters during a break of his little speech to Shinji as Unit 01 is holding him).

The simplest explanation for this is that Rei simply didn't know that she was an angel beforehand, and between becoming "whole" once more (and perhaps unlocking or clearing up some previous memories) and Kaworu almost explicitly telling her... she put two and two together.


And on a minor note, Rei seems to "glow" fairly often. Sometimes it's toned down a bit, but it's most apparent during EoE (where she more or less glows the whole movie). She seems to have a persistent small glow in the Rebuild films as well. This could be related to how AT-fields are shown (not counting the octagons when they clearly block something), most often as a slight visual distortion (Unit 01 activating it's own when trying to save Unit 00 from the 16th angel) or a glow (Kaworu & Rei). In any event, Rei could more or less be expected to have slight glow at any point.
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Postby nomis1242 » Sat Nov 13, 2010 6:07 pm

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:...Rei III has fully realized her nature as Lilith where Rei II...

Woops, I forgot that this is Rei III. Thanks for pointing that out.

EDIT: Abhorrent: thanks for your thoughts (due to refreshing forum pages, I didn't see your post before I wrote my reply). Yeah Rei III clears up the "wow, suddenly she has special powers" thing. And I like your theory that Rei's presence in the copter is a hint that Rei is (among other things) Gendo's souvenir of Yui.

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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:04 pm

Just yesterday I was reflecting about the fact that she could have recovered the part inside the 00 in the Rebuild (if there's her soul in the 00 and if there are souls at all in Rebuild's EVAs).
Yet she was still lacking part of her soul since probably something was still inside Lilith (it's implicitely hinted by the "welcome back" text in EoE and it's explicitly shown in Evangelion2).
Actually I was more prone to think that she was simply not using her powers until that point to conceal herself but it's not impossible that she had a better self-understanding of her nature after she joined with the fragment of her soul inside the EVA-00.
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Postby Shinji » Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:48 pm

Is Rei chronologically four? Seeing as she was choked out (literally) at the age of four, and then kind of just reappeared as a fourteen year old? Meaning physically she'd be fourteen (well, she's more like a clone thing that looks about fourteen) but mentally she'd be four or at least younger than 10.

This of course is all based on the assumption that Rei, unlike Kaworu, has no memories of being Lilith or any memories that her "original," for lack of a better word, Yui Ikari had. In fact it's never hinted at all that Rei even knows who Yui is until much later in the series when they appear together, albeit in a kind of metaphsyical state.

Her amnesia or lack of self awareness could be contributed to multiple things. Lilith's accidental crash landing on earth, Rei's scientifically altered/generated physical state, the separation of her soul, etc. Indeed, one of the most ironic parts of the series imo is when Rei embeds the Lance of Longinus in Lilith, in effect, she's stabbing herself.
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Postby Azathoth » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:53 pm

View Original PostShinji wrote:Is Rei chronologically four? Seeing as she was choked out (literally) at the age of four, and then kind of just reappeared as a fourteen year old? Meaning physically she'd be fourteen (well, she's more like a clone thing that looks about fourteen) but mentally she'd be four or at least younger than 10.


Remember, Rei is Gendou's ward (at least in theory). There's already enough weirdness about him having a blue-haired adopted kid who looks exactly like his dead wife; we have to assume he was trying to minimize the other weirdnesses, which would probably mean replacing Rei I as soon as humanly possible - one would hope that Rei II has been biologically aging normally since not long after Rei I bit the big one. Mentally, she's pretty fucked up anyhow - it's not clear that mental age even factors into it.

View Original PostShinji wrote:This of course is all based on the assumption that Rei, unlike Kaworu, has no memories of being Lilith or any memories that her "original," for lack of a better word, Yui Ikari had. In fact it's never hinted at all that Rei even knows who Yui is until much later in the series when they appear together, albeit in a kind of metaphsyical state.


She has no mental connection to Yui, so I think we can safely rule out her having any of Yui's memories. And her general confusion about what exactly is going on with herself for most of the series suggests that while Rei I and Rei III might have been aware of their Lilith-natures, she herself did not quite get it.

View Original PostShinji wrote:Her amnesia or lack of self awareness could be contributed to multiple things. Lilith's accidental crash landing on earth, Rei's scientifically altered/generated physical state, the separation of her soul, etc. Indeed, one of the most ironic parts of the series imo is when Rei embeds the Lance of Longinus in Lilith, in effect, she's stabbing herself.


I think soul-splitting provides the best answer, but it could be that none of the three Rei really have memories of being Lilith - Rei III does not appear to draw a link between herself and Kaworu until he specifically calls her on it - and it's just that Rei III develops an understanding of her Lilith-nature to the point where she's willing to submerge herself in it.
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Postby Shinji » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:11 pm

All good points. I guess the biggest thing to remember is how confused you would feel finding out that you ARE the giant white thing on the wall that's constantly perioding all over the place. Hard to come to terms with doesn't even come close to describing that feeling I'm guessing.
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Postby thewayneiac » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:11 pm

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:Remember, Rei is Gendou's ward (at least in theory). There's already enough weirdness about him having a blue-haired adopted kid who looks exactly like his dead wife; we have to assume he was trying to minimize the other weirdnesses, which would probably mean replacing Rei I as soon as humanly possible - one would hope that Rei II has been biologically aging normally since not long after Rei I bit the big one. Mentally, she's pretty fucked up anyhow - it's not clear that mental age even factors into it.


The math doesn't work right for her to have aged normally. Rei 1 was killed in 2010; the main series takes place in 2015. She can't be more than 10 years old. Rei 1 was Gendo's ward; Rei 2 was raised in Terminal Dogma, according to Ritsuko.
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Postby Shinji » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:49 pm

So, how Rei came to be is all but settled. The only thing not cleared up are the specifics of her creation... and the blue hair.

But here's a question for you. Since Rei is clearly a clone of Yui, doesn't it follow that Kaworu is a clone of someone? If so, who? It seems unlikely that Adam's soul would just say hey I'm done with this crap and become a human. In fact, it kinda seems like the opposite of what he would do.

Unfortunately this is probably something that will never ever be answered because it serves better unanswered so as to make SEELE appear even more mysterious. I just figured that they grabbed some guy and cloned him.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:13 pm

View Original PostShinji wrote:doesn't it follow that Kaworu is a clone of someone? If so, who?
There has been a suggestion made, that I think holds some good narrative appeal.
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Postby Shinji » Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:24 pm

Seems about as plausible if a little more intriguing than the "murdered drifter" theory XD
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