esselfortium wrote:Xard disagrees with someone about something, facepalms to show how stupid he thinks it is, oh well. Xard acceptance does not validity make.

Explain me how the hell can you justify claiming that Rebuild Shinji is somehow more selfish than the one in EoE

By EoE, Shinji is at the complete end of his rope and isn't equipped to help anyone anymore. And he hates himself for it. In Rebuild, he acts like a self-centered, obsessive prick long before he ever reaches that point. And we're supposed to cheer him on.

esselfortium wrote:By EoE, Shinji is at the complete end of his rope and isn't equipped to help anyone anymore. And he hates himself for it. In Rebuild, he acts like a self-centered, obsessive prick long before he ever reaches that point. And we're supposed to cheer him on.

So he was allowed to be selfish because of that or anyway we should "forgive him"?
Shinji in the end always did things because he was asked by others, to be felt as needed and because he feared that he could be abandoned; in 2.0 he's not a self-centered prick, for the first time he doesn't care about what the others think of him, which is something that the old Shinji could never do.
If he didn't something like that eventually he would end up in the same situation of EoE Shinji that finished to feel himself alone and powerless because of his own action, the fear that his actions could cause the hate of others took him on the road of self-closure to the world.
Of course he did something of exaggerated (even though he didn't have a clue that what he was going was really going to "destroy" the world) but this is an anime after all, what do you expect? And there are always plot devices like the perfect timed arrival of Kaworu to counter other plot devices. It's not the hugeness of his action that matter, it's the nature of the action; it's not Shinji that destroyed an Angel to be praised but it's that he's saving Ayanami because he cares for her.

Xard wrote: Beyond that Shinji's quite a nice fellow in Rebuild. Sure, he was in original too, in many ways, but especially in RoE his kind character has come through more strongly in coparison to his negative characteristics.

Okay. Name one scene, besides the ending or the food exchanges with Rei, where Shinji displays increased kindness, or any kindness at all, for that matter.

You can't do it. He's Gendo without the beard, or perhaps just a bipedal Freudian case study.

...

Hyper Shinchan wrote:Shinji in the end always did things because he was asked by others, to be felt as needed and because he feared that he could be abandoned; in 2.0 he's not a self-centered prick, for the first time he doesn't care about what the others think of him, which is something that the old Shinji could never do.
If he didn't something like that eventually he would end up in the same situation of EoE Shinji that finished to feel himself alone and powerless because of his own action, the fear that his actions could cause the hate of others took him on the road of self-closure to the world.

I'm sure he'll be free of that fear in Q, given that the first real decisive action he's taken is one guaranteed to make others hate him.

Chrad wrote:I'm sure he'll be free of that fear in Q, given that the first real decisive action he's taken is one guaranteed to make others hate him.

Actually his daddy and Fuyutsuki were more than happy; Misato was shocked and Ritsuko was just trying to pose cool.
I doubt that anyone'll hate him.

Okay. Name one scene, besides the ending or the food exchanges with Rei, where Shinji displays increased kindness, or any kindness at all, for that matter.

Actually Shinji was "kind" since NGE but more than kindness it was politeness, if he was asked to take the ID card to Rei he won't say no, he won't complain if he has to do most of the works in the house and so on.
Of course Rebuild's Shinji is probably kind for real (at least in some instances), doing things for others because he wants to do it and not because he was asked to do them by etiquette or orders (he didn't have obliges toward Rei unless you want to say that he was following Kaji's suggestion and he was trying to hit on Rei).
Now that I'm thinking about it allowing Asuka to stay in his bed could count as kindness as well... there are definitely some instances in which he showed some kindness.

Hyper Shinchan wrote:Actually his daddy and Fuyutsuki were more than happy; Misato was shocked and Ritsuko was just trying to pose cool.
I doubt that anyone'll hate him.

You're trolling, right? I mean he did this for fucksake




Even if you have a hard-on for Shinji kicking the world in the dick to unkill Rei, I think the world is going to be a little less chill with it. In fact, if not for Kaworu and Mari having fucked-up priorities, I feel like the Shinji fan club would have exactly one member.

Hyper Shinchan wrote:Actually his daddy and Fuyutsuki were more than happy

That's because he was playing into their plan which just happens to involve causing Third Impact. Not the most representative people to turn to in gauging general reaction to the incident.

Hyper Shinchan wrote:Now that I'm thinking about it allowing Asuka to stay in his bed could count as kindness as well...

I don't think a 14 year old boy choosing not to throw out a partly undressed 14 year old girl who wants to sleep in his bed counts as 'kindness'.

Azathoth wrote:You're trolling, right? I mean he did this for fucksake

But it wasn't intentional (actually I believe that people here don't know the meaning of intentional and unintentional... it's not the first time that I think about it), even if he said that he didn't care about the world I doubt that he knew that the "world destruction" was going to happen for real.

Chrad wrote:That's because he was playing into their plan which just happens to involve causing Third Impact. Not the most representative people to turn to in gauging general reaction to the incident.

First it's wrong to say that "everyone will hate him", you must count those two (and Rei); also if it was true that he didn't care about anything else he should act accordingly.
But actually I really doubt that it'll happen for real that they'll hate him because of this incident, it would be just weird: everyone keep talking badly of Shinji while Shinji is locked inside EVA-01 (and according to the preview they're locked in a Seele prison); it'd be more normal that they're worried about him rather than angry.

Hyper Shinchan wrote:But it wasn't intentional (actually I believe that people here don't know the meaning of intentional and unintentional... it's not the first time that I think about it), even if he said that he didn't care about the world I doubt that he knew that the "world destruction" was going to happen for real.

Who's going to care whether he meant to do it or not?! I don't care if he meant to do it, because it's utterly childish and irresponsible to ignore the consequences of your actions when you're in control of a weapon with infinite power. The people who've actually suffered because of this utter childishness and irresponsibility are going to be even less forgiving of the person who was at fault for it.

If I'm playing around on a strategic bomber and I accidentally drop an armed nuke on a city, people are going to be fucking mad. It doesn't matter if I didn't even kill anyone, I still took control of a ludicrous amount of power and then abused it through carelessness. I can tell everyone else in the world that it was all a big accident, but even if they believe me they would probably still throw me in jail, and they'd probably be right to. At this point, even NERV is probably going to be more concerned with minimizing the damage to Unit 01 than they are with Shinji's wellbeing...or rather they would be if not for the fact that, from the sound of it, the NERV crew have already been detained for their role in all this craziness.

Is Shinji going to get a life sentence in Bubba Q. Assrape Memorial State Correctional Facility? No, because he's the main character and the story revolves around his ability to pilot Unit 01. But if you seriously think that everyone is going to give him a pat on the damn head...well, he needs to actually regain his physical body first, but the world isn't going to be lining up to congratulate him, and after Unit 01's awakening got rudely interrupted I doubt Gendou will be in any mood to congratulate him either.

Hyper Shinchan wrote:But it wasn't intentional (actually I believe that people here don't know the meaning of intentional and unintentional... it's not the first time that I think about it), even if he said that he didn't care about the world I doubt that he knew that the "world destruction" was going to happen for real.

Intentional or not, all the apocalyptic happenings were a manifestation of his stated desire to get Rei back, no matter the cost, and his claim that he didn't care about the world. On a narrative level, it doesn't make sense for there not to be some negative consequences.

Hyper Shinchan wrote:But actually I really doubt that it'll happen for real that they'll hate him because of this incident, it would be just weird: everyone keep talking badly of Shinji while Shinji is locked inside EVA-01 (and according to the preview they're locked in a Seele prison); it'd be more normal that they're worried about him rather than angry.

I'm sure they'll be worried about him, but it's hard to imagine that once he is free everything will be cool and the subject of the world ending event he triggered will be conveniently dropped.

EDIT: Also, what Azathoth said.

I'm going to be so masochistically delighted when everyone ignores the consequences of Shinji's actions and gives him a pat on the head in the next movie.

You know, even if his actions have major repercussions in the next movie, I don't think it'd redeem 2.0. Clearly, the viewer is meant to share in Shinji's triumph to some degree; everything about the ending suggests this. If you were disgusted the whole time, then Anno has failed in taking us inside Shinji's head.

Azathoth wrote:If I'm playing around on a strategic bomber and I accidentally drop an armed nuke on a city, people are going to be fucking mad.

You won't ever know how many times strategic bombers dropped their payload for various reasons (both incidentally or because they were short on fuel). It just happened that strategic bombers don't fly over cities but over the ocean and other uninhabited areas. I doubt that they sentenced to life jail those distracted pilots...
I wonder if it's useful to argue about this, it seems that for you guys if you kill one accidentally while hunting and killing voluntarily someone are basically the same. You can't kept someone guilty of something that he didn't plan to do beyond what prudence and diligence suggested to do (and in Shinji's case there was nothing that he was aware that suggested to avoid that kind of EVA-REI-ANGEL contact and he's also justified by the emergency of saving someone else life).

Chrad wrote:I'm sure they'll be worried about him, but it's hard to imagine that once he is free everything will be cool and the subject of the world ending event he triggered will be conveniently dropped.

I don't think that it's impossible, after all his superiors didn't really say anything to stop him, he didn't know what could happen, I don't see reasons to consider him GUILTY of anything (it should be the concept in the Common Law system that resemble our "dolo")
It just happened; luckily Kaworu and his lance were around, that's all.
EDIT:

Lucretius wrote:If you were disgusted the whole time, then Anno has failed in taking us inside Shinji's head.

He managed to do so perfectly in my case,there's only a bunch of guys here that hated so much the ending of 2.0 and can't keep their opinion for themselves but must keep saying that they didn't like it over and over and over...

esselfortium wrote:By EoE, Shinji is at the complete end of his rope and isn't equipped to help anyone anymore. And he hates himself for it. In Rebuild, he acts like a self-centered, obsessive prick long before he ever reaches that point. And we're supposed to cheer him on.

How exactly is he not at his lowest point? Seriously, what is so different about the ending of 2.22 compared to EoE?

Seph wrote:How exactly is he not at his lowest point? Seriously, what is so different about the ending of 2.22 compared to EoE.

Motivation. 2.22 Shinji has none for his actions, or at any rate very little beyond the damsel-in-distress set-up.

Hyper Shinchan wrote:You won't ever know how many times strategic bombers dropped their payload for various reasons (both incidentally or because they were short on fuel). It just happened that strategic bombers don't fly over cities but over the ocean and other uninhabited areas.

Unfortunately, your fascinating anecdote isn't relevant in the least to my hypothetical, since there is something of a difference between ditching your payload for weight and accidentally firing an armed payload into a settled target.

Hyper Shinchan wrote:I wonder if it's useful to argue about this, it seems that for you guys if you kill one accidentally while hunting and killing voluntarily someone are basically the same.

No, it's just that I don't think there's a great deal of practical difference between blowing up a city for the hell of it and blowing up a city to rescue this chick you like, and I don't think there should be a great deal of practical difference in how the response to the act handled.

Hyper Shinchan wrote:You can't kept someone guilty of something that he didn't plan to do beyond what prudence and diligence suggested to do (and in Shinji's case there was nothing that he was aware that suggested to avoid that kind of EVA-REI-ANGEL contact and he's also justified by the emergency of saving someone else life).

Prudence and diligence have nothing to do with Shinji's actions, as he's the first to admit. And quite frankly, the kind of shit Shinji pulls on a regular basis would already have gotten him kicked the fuck out of his job if there was anyone else in the world who could do it. As it is, he's mostly been excused anything beyond a stern telling-off because his idiocy usually has relatively minor consequences. This time, you know, he was kind of...well, working himself up to kill the entire world.

Azathoth wrote:Unfortunately, your fascinating anecdote isn't relevant in the least to my hypothetical, since there is something of a difference between ditching your payload for weight and accidentally firing an armed payload into a settled target.

A nuclear weapon could cause problems to a lesser extent even in a uninhabited zone because of the fallout and if it falls in the ocean because of the radioactivity that will start leaking after some years.

Azathoth wrote:No, it's just that I don't think there's a great deal of practical difference between blowing up a city for the hell of it and blowing up a city to rescue this chick you like, and I don't think there should be a great deal of practical difference in how the response to the act handled.

You're forgetting the difference between accidentally blowing a city, potentially blowing up a city and blowing up a city for real; legally they're all different crimes and they're punished differently.

Azathoth wrote:Prudence and diligence have nothing to do with Shinji's actions, as he's the first to admit. And quite frankly, the kind of shit Shinji pulls on a regular basis would already have gotten him kicked the fuck out of his job if there was anyone else in the world who could do it. As it is, he's mostly been excused anything beyond a stern telling-off because his idiocy usually has relatively minor consequences. This time, you know, he was kind of...well, working himself up to kill the entire world.

And in fact he could be held responsible of "potentially destroying the world because of an action taken in extreme circumstances without prior authorisation"; the worst that they could do is kicking him out of NERV since he was risking his butt to save them and they never explained him anything about EVAs, Angels and 3rd Impact hence he couldn't know that he was going to cause it.

Last post from me until we've chilled a little because we're just talking past each other here story of this thread

Hyper Shinchan wrote:A nuclear weapon could cause problems to a lesser extent even in a uninhabited zone because of the fallout and it falls in the ocean because of the radioactivity that will start leaking after some years.

Not relevant, again. Forget the analogy, it was shitty anyway.

Hyper Shinchan wrote:You're forgetting the difference between accidentally blowing a city, potentially blowing up a city and blowing up a city for real; legally they're all different crimes and they're punished differently.

See, that's the thing, I don't know that anyone ever has blown up a city purely by accident - but the fact remains that if you have the power to destroy cities it behooves you to use that power responsibly, especially when there's as few functional controls on you when Shinji does. Shinji's the one in control of Unit 01. I don't have an objective problem with him using that power to save Rei, although I don't think it contributes beneficially to either of their characters. I do have a problem with when he's saved her and makes no effort to halt the process of the world being eaten by his giant spinning black-hole halo.

Hyper Shinchan wrote:And in fact he could be held responsible of "potentially destroying the world because of an action taken in extreme circumstances without prior authorisation"; the worst that they could do is kicking him out of NERV since he was risking his butt to save them and they never explained him anything about EVAs, Angels and 3rd Impact and he couldn't know that he was causing 3rd Impact.

If he didn't notice he was causing Third Impact, he's willfully ignoring the destruction of the outside world while in control of an infinitely powerful alien clone warping reality. If he noticed he was causing Third Impact, he's willfully ignoring the destruction of the outside world while in control of an infinitely powerful alien clone warping reality. Choose your own adventure.

The fact that Shinji can't really get punished in any Eva storyline for any of the shit he pulls is what makes writing him in a sympathetic fashion difficult. The worst case scenario for Shinji is that eventually his bullshit leads to the world being destroyed and everyone else dying, in which case he wises up a little late and then feels like shit. Unfortunately, Anno fell off the wagon there by forgetting to make him feel like shit, with the result that instead of looking like an ass, Shinji looks like a self-satisfied ass.

Azathoth wrote:Not relevant, again. Forget the analogy, it was shitty anyway.

You've been the one to call that analogy...

Azathoth wrote:See, that's the thing, I don't know that anyone ever has blown up a city purely by accident

Have you ever heard about a city in the former USSR called Prypiat? It's in the current Ukraine and it's completely uninhibited because of an accident.

Azathoth wrote:If he didn't notice he was causing Third Impact, he's willfully ignoring the destruction of the outside world while in control of an infinitely powerful alien clone warping reality. If he noticed he was causing Third Impact, he's willfully ignoring the destruction of the outside world while in control of an infinitely powerful alien clone warping reality. Choose your own adventure.

By the time everything started breaking up and wings were coming out of 01 he probably wasn't fully aware of what he was doing (and if he was aware he wasn't aware of the further consequences; unlike us he didn't saw an anime called Neon Genesis Evangelion back in the 90s, he couldn't know that what was beginning was the end of the world as it's known); and when he started the process he couldn't predict what was going to happen, I don't think that there's anyone with a decent sense of justice that could be angry with him.