Akira vs EoE

Non-Eva Anime and Manga discussion

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:57 pm

View Original PostDefectron wrote:The reason why almost no one says anything bad about shakespear is because almost no one dislikes it. But the thing is mass opinion is hardly foolproof even if it is right sometimes... I don't think it should be used as a standard to determine how good something is.
You might want to ask high school kids about how much they like Shakespeare... While an inordinate amount of people do indeed like, love, and respect Shakespeare--and that like/love/respect hasn't seemed to dissipate in 400 years--that hardly means that "almost no one dislikes him". PLENTY of people dislike him or downright hate him, but few of those people have the knowledge or intelligence necessary to mount any kind of offensive against his reputation. Tolstoy did, and he did so with a passion. But I think Orwell's response was more telling. I'll quote the most relevant bits:
View Original PostOrwell wrote:One's first feeling is that in describing Shakespeare as a bad writer he is saying something demonstrably untrue. But this is not the case. In reality there is no kind of evidence or argument by which one can show that Shakespeare, or any other writer, is 'good' ... Ultimately there is no test of literary merit except survival, which is itself an index to majority opinion...
Which, more or less, goes back to what I've been saying: the only test of great art is survival, which is related to majority (if even selective majority) opinion.

This directly relates to your point about the majority establishing a standard: the problem is that that's the only way standards are formed on a scale that's larger than subjectively! Laws are nothing but standards which a majority came up; so is morality and our entire notions of what's good and bad. But, again, standards are subject to evolution and modification; they change over time. And there is frequently conflict between individual standards and majority standards that can't be reconciled. Unfortunately, as I've said, subjective standards would be all we needed if everyone lived alone on their own island, but we don't; we live in societies which requires standards formed by mass opinion. And while any individual is free to disagree with those standards, to change then they have to do a lot more than say "I disagree". One could say the whole point of dialectics is to try and hammer out standards of agreement between societies of individuals.

Defectron wrote: DBZ fans like to justify the opinion that DBZ is the best anime because of how much influence it has had on the anime industry. On the other hand Miyazaki, for all his praise actually hasn't had a lot of noticible influence in comparison.
One thing about influence is that even if it's relatively objective compared to other qualitative standards we create for art, it's still extremely ambiguous and tricky to nail down. DBZ, for instance, might have had a more obvious influence on the anime industry, but do we see its direct influence in anime that we consider of high quality itself? I'd argue we don't. Miyazaki's influence is much more pervasive than meets the eye. Consider that he had a profound influence on Anno, for instance, and that a lot of cinephiles love Miyazaki's films and have no doubt been inspired/influenced by them on much subtler levels than we might see ostensibly in their films.

And, sure, it's not wholly about influence but about being able to last. In 50 years, does Miyazaki or DBZ stand a better chance of still being recognized in the industry? I think the answer is fairly obvious, and I also think it's impossible for something to last without it having influence.

View Original PostDefectron wrote: something good that doesn't get a lot of exposure isn't likely to get a lot of influence.
It depends. David Lynch has been massively influential, perhaps only behind Spielberg and Scorsese in that department, yet his works haven't gotten wide exposure and have really been quite niche. It's like someone noted elsewhere in this thread (I think), "not a lot of people bought Velvet Underground records, but everyone who did started a band". So the volume of exposure doesn't necessarily equal more influence. If you have less exposure, but a high influence-to-exposure rate, then it's quite possible to be more influential than works/artists that are more exposed.

View Original PostBrikHaus wrote:I'm going to revoke your anime fan membership.
Obviously I'm just talking about if we're comparing the two, not if we're putting them in their more holistic anime context. Then neither comparison would fit.
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Postby Tokyo-3 » Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:06 pm

It is clear to me that The End of Evangelion (Shin Seiki Evangelion Gekijouban) is infinitely more deep than Akira. Comparitively there is no comparison; "EoE" is clearly the greater work of art.

How could anyone try to defend the statement that Akira (a film about the underlying Japanese fear of nuclear attack etc., which uses much less meaningful visuals and just boasts "extremely smooth animation for it's time") is better than The End of Evangelion (a brilliant film about the innermost thoughts and feeling of the director during and after his depression, expressed through rich visual symbolism) because some schmo's at weliketehcartoons.com and various other profusely biased American websites rated Akira the #1 coolest "cartoon" ever?!

In conclusion :facepalm:, just :facepalm:.

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Postby Eva 02 » Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:44 pm

^ umm... no. Akira in many ways allowed for EoE, and Evangelion in general to be produced. Imagine how bad the anime market would have spiraled down if not for the international success and intense flow of capital to Japanese animation production companies. Akira revamped the anime market in Japan and allowed for the 90's anime boom (which included NGE and Cowboy Bebop) In no way is this debate over which one is the collective favorite, or which one is better in terms of entertainment. It has never been about that, because if it was which one was our favorite, everyone on this board, including me, will agree its EoE. EoE is better, yes. Akira is more important to anime as a whole, and it will still be 10 years from now. Akira opened the world's eyes to anime, and more than quadrupled international consumers of anime. If you can't respect that and see that its legacy is more commanding than NGE will be even after Rebuild concludes, then you're in straight denial and should have your otaku licence revoked.

If it wasn't for [me watching] Akira, I would never have gotten into NGE, and the same can be said for a lot of people on this board as well.

And why does everyone forget about the deep parts of Akira? sure, EoE has it beat philosophically, but Akira isn't devoid of it and some of the parts directly inspire Eva.

The end of Akira and the end of NGE series are a lit alike. Where Kanaeda is floating through the white abyss surrounded by the debris of skyscrapers and city architecture, bombarded with thoughts of when he was a child and other surreal visions, reminds me of episode 26 greatly.

The obvious big problem is, every naysayer needs to rewatch Akira and then watch EoE to see the direct inspirations. You will understand that Akira>EoE, no matter if EoE inspired anything modern, Akira allowed for the creation of EoE and made a nice little path for EoE to follow. You must respect that no matter what EoE directly inspired, the thing that inspired EoE is intrinsically greater than what EoE inspired, because EoE is better in all aspects than anything created after it, but not before it. This would also mean Yamato>EoE, as hard as it is to say compared to Akira>EoE
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Postby Merridian » Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:37 pm

Eva 02 wrote: Akira is more important to anime as a whole, and it will still be 10 years from now. Akira opened the world's eyes to anime, and more than quadrupled international consumers of anime.
Let’s look at the Akira film’s most important and most obvious legacy to anime: the OVA boom.

Did it, as you state, open Westerner’s eyes to anime in terms of mature themes, graphic violence, ‘not kids stuff’, etc? Yes, it certainly did. It was successful enough of make it into a few movie theatres for a little while, and as such was reviewed by western folks otherwise entirely unfamiliar with Japanese anime, such as Roger Ebert. I’ll certainly agree that this is important.

However, what Akira also heralded was the end of a boom-time for the Japanese anime industry. Akira (and Wings of Honnaemise, though that totally bombed until home video releases) was not a financial success in Japan. It made its budget back, barely, but gained very little in terms of actual profit—in part because its budget was so massive. Combined with the end of the bubble market Japan had going on through a great deal of the 80s, Akira was one of the first casualties to suffer at the hands of an industry losing both its creative steam and the resources it had to pour into more extreme, ‘un-anime’-like artistic productions. By the time the bubble was completely over with (in the early-90s), the only works that actually showed artistic ingenuity were produced by Ghibli, who could afford to do that, or they were the two Oshii films from the time (Patlabor 2 and GitS, neither of which were incredible box-office successes, either).

So, where did Japan turn to in order to compensate for its lack of audiences? The West, which had just been blown away by Akira, of course! :D This is how you ended up with gems such as Mad Bull 34, Venus Wars, Cyber City Oedo 808, Goku: Midnight Eye, Blood Reign, Big Wars, Spirit Warrior, Angel Cop, Genocyber, Bounty Dog, etc etc etc being produced one after another by studios desperate to cash in on potential Western audiences who had been wowed by the violence, craziness, grittiness, and maturity of Akira. Aside from some gore and hilarious dialogue, most of these OVAs are little more than pandering, disorganized messes in terms of actual narrative and intent. Very, very few of these OVA titles actually had any lasting impact on the whole of the genre, as the industry would remain in a creative slump until about the time NGE reinvigorated it and kicked off the spree of awesome titles that came in the second half of the 90s. There were a few good series in between Akira and NGE—such as Nadia, though even its impact is very small, same essentially for the Patlabor franchise and Dezaki’s Oniisama E shoujo series, as great as it was—but none of them were runaway successes. Nadia was probably closest to this out of all of them, yet it still isn’t of any important note in the grand scheme of things.

While I will not be so bold as to say that Akira STARTED the ‘dark ages’ that anime underwent in the early-90s, I will say that it certainly contributed to them and signaled their arrival.

It’s important also to keep in mind that the OVA boom had actually started prior to Akira, back in 1985-86 or so with the first Megazone 23 OVA. It had some steam going for a few years, but the Western market wouldn’t really dive into it until Akira. Titles that were released prior to the film certainly received wider releases (like Megazone 23, Project A-Ko, Bubblegum Crisis, MD Geist, etc), however.
Eva 02 wrote:You will understand that Akira>EoE, no matter if EoE inspired anything modern, Akira allowed for the creation of EoE and made a nice little path for EoE to follow. You must respect that no matter what EoE directly inspired, the thing that inspired EoE is intrinsically greater than what EoE inspired, because EoE is better in all aspects than anything created after it, but not before it. This would also mean Yamato>EoE, as hard as it is to say compared to Akira>EoE
It takes more than age to make something influential. The themes and methods of presentation used in the Akira film haven’t been wholesale embraced, duplicated, and regurgitated to the same extent that they have with regards to NGE. By this logic, something like Gall Force: Eternal Story is more influential than both of them simply because it predates the both of them, and you might even argue that it possesses elements that both stories would use regardless of whether direct influence is present. However Gall Force was an old OVA from '86 that received relatively limited release, was gobbled up as the entertainment it was, was successful enough to warrant a few more low-budget sequels, and (similar to much of the OVA boom) it eventually petered off into the graveyard of the forgotten.

Space Runaway Ideon is in somewhat of a similar boat. It influenced Evangelion (particularly the end), and possibly Akira as well due to connections present in the bit you mention regarding Kanada having a transcendental experience amid that explosion. Yet it's practically unheard of outside fans of Tomino works and anyone interested in NGE influences.

I also just want to make it clear that I'm not arguing that Akira wasn't influential or noteworthy, since it really does IMO deserve its status as a classic and it did mark a crucial point in the anime industry. However, in terms of influence and impact, NGE outpaces it by quite a bit.

special thanks to Xard, whose clarification and exposition on several points helped me be able to write this post

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:45 pm

View Original PostEva 02 wrote:You will understand that Akira>EoE, no matter if EoE inspired anything modern, Akira allowed for the creation of EoE and made a nice little path for EoE to follow. You must respect that no matter what EoE directly inspired, the thing that inspired EoE is intrinsically greater than what EoE inspired, because EoE is better in all aspects than anything created after it, but not before it. This would also mean Yamato>EoE, as hard as it is to say compared to Akira>EoE
On the basis of the "What comes before is more influential than what came after, X came before Y, therefor X is more influential" logical argument you could essentially plug just about anything into that X and Y spot and make such an argument:

-Christopher Marlow came before Shakespeare, so Christopher Marlowe is more influential because he allowed for Shakespeare to exist.

-Monteverdi came before JS Bach, so Monteverdi is more influential because he allowed for Bach to exist.

-William Thackery came before James Joyce, so Thackery is more influential because he allowed for Joyce to exist.

Now, I hope you don't agree with any of the above arguments, or else I couldn't take you serious any more.
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Postby Tokyo-3 » Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:06 pm

Eva 02 wrote:^ umm... no. Akira in many ways allowed for EoE, and Evangelion in general to be produced. Imagine how bad the anime market would have spiraled down if not for the international success and intense flow of capital to Japanese animation production companies. Akira revamped the anime market in Japan and allowed for the 90’s anime boom


True it contributed to the general anime market via good international reception (perhaps largely due to it’s American-like visual style/archetypes: humans with super powers, motrcycles, mad scientists causing the end of the world) but couldn’t this also be said of Royal Space Force: The Wings of Honneamise? I’ve seen countless people who like Honneamise a lot who don’t even like anime. Honneamise also had a lot to do with human advancement, if humans could handle such evolution/advancement and the repercussions associated with such progress.

Eva 02 wrote:Akira is more important to anime as a whole, and it will still be 10 years from now. Akira opened the world’s eyes to anime, and more than quadrupled international consumers of anime.


A defendable point, yes, but I think that it was Eva that showed people the true artistic potential of anime as a medium; it showed the world that anime is as equal an artistic medium as Film, Music, Literature etc. and is just as capable of being intelligent, complex and deep in expressing ideas. Eva crushed the notion that anime was just “kids stuff” and lacked maturity. It is the genius of the director that decides the artistic value of the work, not the medium. Now given, Otomo has directed many intelligent, inciteful, analytical works but I think Anno's directorial style is vastly more genius.

Eva 02 wrote:If you can’t respect that and see that its legacy is more commanding than NGE will be even after Rebuild concludes, then you’re in straight denial and should have your otaku licence revoked.


If your point is that Akira’s influence on anime as a whole is greater than Evangelions’ I highly disagree. As well as the international influence I mentioned above, Eva had a huge influence on anime as a medium. Just think how many anime ripped off Eva or copied parts of it's style. I could name a ton. Finally, looking at your main argument throughout this whole thread, maybe you could clarify in the OP post if the point of this thread is to debate whether Akira or Eva/EoE had a greater influence on anime, or to debate which anime is a deeper work of art.

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Postby Eva 02 » Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:58 pm

Ok ok... so to summarize, Akira is only influential in terms of the OVA boom, right? That’s been said countless times here, but its something I never agreed on. Even Merri, the proponent for the OVA-boom impact:

1985-86 or so with the first Megazone 23 OVA


Akira opened the world's eyes to anime, people whose eyes have not even seen Eva. If Eva was indeed greater than Akira, then why is Akira a household animation title, even in the anti-anime eyes of Blockbuster?(Every single BB carries Akira, not Eva) Your point would be valid if talking about GitS, for example. Another massive international OVA hit, but it’s not influential. It was the first to integrate seamless CGI in a fashion that made it visually stunning, but still doesn't hold water to EoE or Akira.

@ Jimbo, come on. You're very talented in pointing out fallacies in arguments, yes I've noticed. I didn’t say X came before Y, so X>Y. I was saying, Akira influenced anime in such a way economically and production-wise that it allowed creative risks such as Eva to be pitched (in the eyes of high-brass anime corporations in which directors pitch ideas to). That’s where anime starts or stops - if they can convince the big guys up top that people will like a show. Every logical movie fan knows that financers and studios don't endorse art for creativity, it’s the potential for profit and how appealing it is to the masses. With anime seeing more international success, there was a surge of OVAs (among other things) such as Mad Bull 34, Venus Wars, Cyber City Oedo 808, Goku: Midnight Eye, Blood Reign, Big Wars, Spirit Warrior, Angel Cop, Genocyber, Bounty Dog etc.. that were not exactly masterpieces. But out of the haze, some masterpieces did rise from the ashes, namely NGE and Bebop. Without the revamp of the market due to Akira, these titles may have never been produced, or not gotten enough of a budget or production support to make it what it is today.

So Akira>EoE in terms of Akira influenced EoE, so influence Akira>Influence EoE.

How about another way to look at it:

Without Akira:

- I, and a majority of others, would not like Anime, at least not as much.
- All that international revenue seen by the studio wouldn't have been there. This means A LOT OF THINGS: 1.) Other studios wouldn’t want to strive to ride the anime wave by creating new and innovative animes (such as NGE) 2.) Anime in terms of themes and content would not look the same. 3.) Cel production would not have evolved in such a way, even if different today than Akira, Akira is responsible by causation. 2.) The budget was enormous, never done before. When American movie budgets were outdone, there was the effect of creating true Magnum Opus' of cinema. 3.) Merchandizing for Akira definitely inspired the "why did I buy this crap" of today, which doubly supports the anime market. 4.) There’s many more, but it’s only natural to assume the cause and effect of Akira in terms of even basic economics knowledge.
- No matter which way you look at it, Akira’s success internationally spurred the creation of 90’s anime which includes NGE as a whole, not just EoE.

Without EoE:

- Not much, actually. I don’t know anything that was influenced solely by EoE and I’m 90% sure none exists.

Let’s make this fair and do a hypothetical without NGE franchise:

- There would not be this forum
- Anno would have most likely committed suicide
- It would have taken anime longer to delve into deeper themes
- There wouldn’t be RaXephon, Gasaraki, Brain Powerd, Eureka 7, Utena, Serial Expiriements Lain, Xenogears etc… (Ok, please please PLEASe don’t take my RaXephon!!!! *shakes head*
- FLCL, Angel Beats! and Excel Saga would have to make up some new jokes that were eva references
- Robin Williams would not be a comedian

Evangelion is my favorite, hands down. But it’s impossible to ignore Akira’s deep permeation of most anime produced from 1989-1999. It’s not a hard point to stipulate – a lot of people have already admitted that Akira was their first “adult anime” and that it had a vast effect on international consumerism of anime. Plain and simple, Akira is a household animation title. Evangelion is not. Point and point. ^_^
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:17 pm

View Original PostEva 02 wrote:Akira opened the world's eyes to anime, people whose eyes have not even seen Eva. If Eva was indeed greater than Akira, then why is Akira a household animation title, even in the anti-anime eyes of Blockbuster?(Every single BB carries Akira, not Eva) Your point would be valid if talking about GitS, for example. Another massive international OVA hit, but it’s not influential. It was the first to integrate seamless CGI in a fashion that made it visually stunning, but still doesn't hold water to EoE or Akira.
Good grief. I know something's wrong when I'm facepalming at every point/proposition. Ok, yes, Akira opened A LOT of eyes to anime, BUT THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ITS INFLUENCE! The fact that it opened up a bigger anime market in the west has very little to do with the anime that came after and, as Merri/Xard pointed out, the OVA, which was most influenced by Akira, did very little to capitalize on that popularity. The fact is that most who had their "eyes opened" by Akira went on to seek out other anime including NGE. But if we're talking about influence on the industry, influence on works that came after, influence even outside the industry then there's no comparison and NGE wins easily.

As for the Blockbuster argument, ironically, neither the Blockbuster or Hollywood video I went to in the 90s had Akira, but both had NGE. I actually saw Akira at a friend's house who had bought the video. I'm not saying that my experience counts for every video store, but it does squash the theory that EVERY video store had Akira while only some had NGE.

As for Akira being a "household name", I don't think it is. Even in the west it's still a pretty damn cult-like. At best, it's a sub-culture phenomenon rather than a cultural phenomenon. I mean, I can understand that there are probably a lot in the west who have only seen one (or maybe just a small handful) of animes and for those people Akira is probably one of the titles they've seen while NGE isn't; but that's almost counter to genuine influence. The people who would be influenced by either are those whom Akira provoked to investigate anime further, like myself. Yeah, Akira "woke me up" to anime, and in that sense it was influential, but in my own work I draw infinitely more from NGE and not at all from Akira. Ergo, NGE is more influential to me even though Akira came first.

As for GITS, I would argue that its influence is actually pretty close to Akira in terms of significance. While Akira may have opened a lot of western eyes to animation, Oshii and GitS really first proliferated the concept that genuine auteurs could work in anime, and GitS was probably more critically/academically important to anime than Akira was. The proof of this can be found by simply looking at the existing critical studies on Oshii and GitS in the west compared to Otomo and Akira, of which there are none (that I know of). I mean, hell, GitS directly inspired the Wachowskis and The Matrix; if that isn't influence I don't know what is.

View Original PostEva 02 wrote: I was saying, Akira influenced anime in such a way economically and production-wise that it allowed creative risks such as Eva to be pitched (in the eyes of high-brass anime corporations in which directors pitch ideas to).
I'm still not buying the argument. Was Eva REALLY a creative risk? I mean, Gainax was, afterall, almost an "anime insider" company owned and (mostly) run by the very people producing the actual works, so I'm not sure how much impact Akira had on them being able to produce something like Eva. And if Akira really allowed for such works to be produced, how do you account for all the mecha anime that was produced prior to Akira? I just don't buy that a film that barely made its money back in Japan could have had such a rejuvenating influence as you claim...

View Original PostEva 02 wrote:So Akira>EoE in terms of Akira influenced EoE, so influence Akira>Influence EoE.
Still doesn't work: Marlowe>Shakespeare in terms of Marlowe influencing (directly) Shakespeare, so influence Marlowe>Influence Shakespeare. It's the exact same formula that works on a parallel level.

View Original PostEva 02 wrote:Without Akira: I, and a majority of others, would not like Anime, at least not as much.
And I would include myself on that list. In that sense, Akira "influenced" me to get into anime, but it hasn't influenced me to MAKE anime or influenced me in my artistic endeavors whatsoever.

As for the rest of your points, I'll leave them for Merri to chew on, because my jaw is sore already.
Last edited by Eva Yojimbo on Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
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Postby Merridian » Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:45 pm

I’d like to clarify also that there were two major pushes into the western market by the anime industry. The first was with Akira, and that ended in what basically amounts to failure; it didn’t generate nearly enough revenue for studios to justify continuation, and it didn’t open anime up to the West enough to achieve widespread recognition. It was basically a short-term attempt to keep the industry afloat.

The second major push into the market occurred in the early-00s or so, after the release of titles that practically owe their entire existence to NGE—such as Cowboy Bebop and Serial Experiments Lain (especially). At that point anime really WAS gaining a slight foothold over here, in part due to efforts of television stations, as well as widening access to internet and to freely-distributed fansubs. In some senses, this has also failed for what basically amounts to the same reason; it wasn’t cost effective. There still weren’t enough people over here interested in it to make Western-marketed titles like Ergo Proxy a main sustenance of the industry. What won instead was slice-of-life moe shows and the like, because studios saw immediate cash results from their domestic consumers—namely otaku. There are still some artistic works coming out, but very very few of them are designed with Western tastes in mind anymore—at turn of the decade it was slightly more common.

I will not argue that Akira helped bring this about. However, its immediate impact in opening the western market contributed to a massive creative slump in the anime industry. Its influence on anime is minimal to nearly non-existent. Its impact on foreign markets has also diminished due to the amount that the foreign markets owe themselves to the late-90s boom that traces itself back to, of all things, NGE. Westerners may not be aware that NGE was partially responsible for rehabilitation of the anime industry that eventually led to the modern/most recent influx of anime to the West, but that’s the way it is.

Cowboy Bebop isn’t even a part of the OVA boom, basically. It’s a member of the late-90s anime boom/“the 90s golden age”. In other words, saying that Akira allowed for the late-90s boom of successful titles either simply isn’t accurate (NGE is closer to this than Akira), or is simply redundant, as one might as well credit SDF-Macross, the original Gundam Series, Yamato, Horus: Prince of the Sun, and Astro Boy etc all back in succession as “allowing for” the boom to happen. Obviously Akira was a link in the overall chain, just as these other titles were, but it wasn’t a title directly responsible for late-90s industry.

Three other things I'd also like to clarify are here:
Eva 02 wrote: I was saying, Akira influenced anime in such a way economically and production-wise that it allowed creative risks such as Eva to be pitched (in the eyes of high-brass anime corporations in which directors pitch ideas to).
Akira wasn’t much better than a commercial failure domestically. Between it and the bombing of Honnaemise, anime studios did the exact opposite of what you’re saying. They didn’t WANT to experiment at the time, because experimenting failed to generate the revenue they needed/wanted.

Studios wouldn’t start experimenting again until Serial Experiments Lain and onwards—and Lain was only greenlit because of the success that NGE (and EoE in particular) had garnered.
Eva 02 wrote: But out of the haze, some masterpieces did rise from the ashes, namely NGE and Bebop.
NGE was effectively the end of the OVA boom. There were a few more OVA boom-esque titles produced in ’96 and 97, but they were very scarce after that—certainly not in the same volume as they were in ‘89-‘94. NGE marks the starting point of a second high time for the industry, and Bebop, coming out in ’98, is definitely far enough removed from the OVA boom to avoid any association with it.

To put it more simply, the OVA boom lasted approximately from 1985 (Megazone) through 1995 (NGE). There were a few titles prior to the boom (like Dallos), and a few titles that could be considered part of the boom that came out in ’96 and ’97 (Apocalypse Zero, Birdy the Mighty), but for the most part the boom had collapsed in favor of actual anime series.

For reference’s sake, OVA stands for Original Video Animation (or Original Animation Video OAV, but they mean the exact same thing), and are different from either series or films. They’re basically just animated blurbs released direct-to-video. Akira, GitS, EoE are all films and were released theatrically. Megazone 23 et al are OVAs; they weren’t aired on television (Japanese television, anyway) nor released theatrically.
Eva 02 wrote: 3.) Cel production would not have evolved in such a way, even if different today than Akira, Akira is responsible by causation.
Akira wasn’t animated any differently than either Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind or Macross: Do You Remember Love? were back in 1984. The only thing they did differently was animate the lip flaps after everyone had recorded their lines, and seeing as how almost no one in the anime industry has repeated this, I’d say it’s hardly influential.

Jimbo wrote: As for GITS, I would argue that its influence is actually pretty close to Akira in terms of significance. While Akira may have opened a lot of western eyes to animation, Oshii and GitS really first proliferated the concept that genuine auteurs could work in anime, and GitS was probably more critically/academically important to anime than Akira was.
minor note here, but from my experience, the two works actually share something pretty interesting: Akira was responsible for several gritty cyberpunk titles that came out at the height of the OVA boom (and in many ways the overall dark tone that surrounded MANY OVAs from the time), yet Oshii’s GitS adaptation essentially saw the end of that kind of gritty cyberpunk dystopian future. Yes it was gritty, and yes it was somewhat dystopian, however the presentation of that cyberpunk future wasn’t about street bikes, explosions, dark alleys, or general grit, but rather about socio-political scheming, brain hacking, and cerebral craziness that you see in (more) modern cyberpunk titles like the GitS:SAC series or Real Drive.

@Tokyo-3: the thing about Honnaemise is that it's still relatively obscure and, to my knowledge, didn't even receive any wide release outside of Japan until it hit home video. It's made some profit from those sales, and it has since won critical acclaim even domestically, but it remains a frequently over-looked title.
:shrug: At least in my experience.

Evangelion217
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Postby Evangelion217 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:06 pm

View Original PostEva 02 wrote:@ OoOoOoO I was one of those people. The manga has to be the greatest of all time. I saw the Anime first, then would either purchase the giant novels or read them at the local Half-Price Books. I was blown away by the manga! The drawings of the city and landscapes are epic. Also, the movie completely missed Tetsuo's badassery from the manga. He didn't get blonde hair and blue eyes and it never showed him walking down main street with that cape, staving off tanks. The Anime, upon further examination, would get boring because of all the plot summarization and explanations. The manga's definitely better by a long shot, but be that as it may, the Anime has yet to be truly surpassed by any other title.


In terms of artistic abilities, epic storytelling, characterizations, and aesthetics, nothing really compares to "End Of Evangelion."

I love "Akira", it was one of the first adult animes to strike a chord with me, and basically altered my view of anime and life. But nothing had the visceral, emotional, and life changing impact of "End Of Evangelion." "End Of Evangelion" touched upon my intellectual thinking, my emotional thinking, and my love towards visual story telling.

"Akira" only touched on my emotional thinking. But the intellectual part is not consistently there, since the so-called ambiguity of the film is easy to figure out. So it's emotional impact is what's really kept it alive for 22 years.
The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth.

"Komm Susser Todd" is the most up-lifting song about depression"- Evangelion217

It's stange that "Evangelion" became such a hit. All the characters are so sick!- Hideaki Anno


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