Mari Discussion/Speculation: Version 2.22

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Lucretius
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Postby Lucretius » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:49 am

^ You do realize that a) the co-director admitted that they had no idea what to do with Mari until late in production and b) there's effectively only one movie remaining, right?

He shuddered a bit, remembering the somewhat creepy level of detail Kaji had gone into, while rubbing a watermelon in a disturbingly sexual way.

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Postby Mishrak » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:13 am

I'm not sold on her being a secondary character. She is now, yeah, because we've seen so little of her. But she's involved in way too many big things to just be secondary. They may not have known what they wanted to do with her until late in production, but I'm sure it's safe to assume that they know what direction they want to take her in with the third movie and if it is in fact the final movie, and they don't answer the questions about her, then this has been just a silly as EoE was.

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Postby NAveryW » Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:33 pm

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:I still don't get what possessed Anno and Sadamoto to come up with an Eva character whose sole stated purpose is to not be anything like an Eva character
View Original PostDarthGendo wrote that Maya Sakamoto said that Hideaki Anno wrote:"I want Mari to destroy old Eva."

To clarify, Google translating the Russian translation to English, Sakamoto's elaboration on the statement doesn't seem to imply something "sinister" like discrediting NGE--
Doubly translated Sakamoto wrote:When I heard about the "destruction", then realized what an important role, and at the same time extremely responsible mission was entrusted to me. I'm sure: to destroy the so ingrained image of the product, the new creation must be a monstrous adventure. And I threw all the excitement about the care of "old Eva", and decided to voice Mari as a sort of alien element, which is so needed a current Anno.

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Postby Warren Peace » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:51 pm

Well, whatever her purpose it sure sounds ambitious, which is encouraging. Make it seem less likely that she'll amount to a whole lotta nothin'. It's frustrating having to wait for the whole purpose of Rebuild to reveal itself. I think the movies have been extraordinarily successful up to this point, but the worth of the series rests on the next (two?) film(s).

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Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:33 am

View Original PostNAveryW wrote:doesn't seem to imply something "sinister" like discrediting NGE
Gives an implication of wanting to replace the original -- or at least the perception of the title -- with something new (rather than merely adding another player into shipping wars). Still, 2.x added enough other changes that it's not clear what Mana Mayumi Vincennes is adding to the mix that the rest of the rewrite hasn't.
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Postby DarthGendo » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:51 am

View Original PostNAveryW wrote:To clarify, Google translating the Russian translation to English, Sakamoto's elaboration on the statement doesn't seem to imply something "sinister" like discrediting NGE--

Google translation is surprisingly accurate.
Just a little fix.
"And I threw all worries about leaving "Old Eva", and decided to voice Mari as some kind of an alien element, that today's Anno needs."
Key words are: important role, alien element.
Which led me to believe that Mari has some of the biggest importance in Rebuild.

I'd suggested that someone would translate directly from Japanese to English rather than from Russian.
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Postby zachalsorises » Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:58 am

This strikes me as a deeply important and interesting Mari moment

She runs into Shinji, and he drops his walkman. Before she runs off, she hands it back to him. The very next scene he's listening to his walkman, which is having unspecified problems. He says "That's weird..." and we see the track progress from 26 to 27 [b]for the first time in Eva history.[/b]

If we don't want to go sequel theory with this, it's an interesting and subtle commentary on Mari's tampering with the world of Eva.

If we do go sequel theory (and we should because it's awesome), it's an interesting and subtle commentary that Shinji's loop of 25 and 26 (corresponding to the episodes of the Third Impact) has been broken, and we've proceeded onward and outward.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:12 am

View Original Postzachalsorises wrote:we've proceeded onward and outward.
Into territory that looks remarkably familiar in places.
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Postby Heromaster111 » Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:44 am

View Original PostMishrak wrote:then this has been just a silly as EoE was.


EoE is a great cinematic achievement what is so silly bout that?
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Postby oOoOoOo » Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:57 am

A lot of the ??? moments I had with Mari can be compared to similar moments I had the first time I watched the original series. Anno-san likes showing us things that don't make much sense until later. When we then all obsessively rewatch the Rebuild films, perhaps we'll be able to "fill in the blanks", which is certainly something that happens when I watch the original series.

This is nearly my feeling on everything in the second film, and since I start work late, I'm going to rewatch it this morning. ^_^

EDIT UPON REWATCH: I believe people who are thinking about Kaji's relationship with her are on to something. Last time around, we didn't really see much of what Kaji was up to, as all of his super-spy moments were offscreen. Mari might give us some insight into the backstabbing power-grabbing going on constantly behind the scenes.

I actually like how war-hungry she is, and how she relishes in simple things like, well, basically the smell of napalm in the morning. She seems primal and honest, and not a lot of Evangelion characters are honest with themselves. She seems to know what she wants.
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Postby JoeD80 » Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:12 pm

View Original PostLucretius wrote:^ You do realize that a) the co-director admitted that they had no idea what to do with Mari until late in production and b) there's effectively only one movie remaining, right?

There's a difference between not knowing where you're going until late in production when you can just insert and cut film where needed vs. not knowing where you're going after the movie opens in theaters. I would bet that they worked out her story in time that it makes sense in 2.0 and will integrate with the remaining movies.

View Original PostLucretius wrote:b) there's effectively only one movie remaining, right?

There have been no formal announcements on whether 3.0 and Final will be one or two movies so far beyond the initial announcement before 1.0; with making so much money on 2.0, Khara might want to make two big movies to follow up.

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Postby Number 44 » Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:36 pm

View Original PostNumber 44 wrote:Theory #1: Mari is Anno's take on a cat girl. Animal/Human hybrid of some sort. This would explain Mari's connection with animals.
View Original PostFazmotron wrote:What? What connection does she have with animals? (apart from ZA BEASTO)

View Original PostNumber 44 wrote:Theory #2: Rei and Kaworu are angel's souls stuck in human form. Evangelion are basicly angels with just a little{corrected} human DNA spliced in or something of the sort. And Mari? Maybe she's human with just a little angel DNA spliced in.
View Original PostFazmotron wrote:We don't know anything about the souls of Rei and Kaworu in Rebuild, we don't even know if they're connected to Adam and Lilith.

View Original PostNumber 44 wrote:Theory #3 Not really a theory but Rei Anami is listed as public relations for Tokyo TV. Probably a common enough name in Japan and after all it's not exactly the same name, but I do wonder. Anyone care to check NGE/EoE's credits for a Mari?

View Original PostFazmotron wrote:What?


I was dead tired when I posted, and fully expected my post to be deleted. All 3 are [email protected]$$ed at best.

However since the post wasn't deleted, let me explain.

Theory #1 is based solely off "Beast Mode" and Mari's comment about the smell of LCL. We already know LCL smells like blood, and animals are attracted to the smell of blood.

Theory #2 Probably misunderstandings on my part. In NGE when Evangelion are described as a "more than just a clone of the first angel", a "man made man", and "a man who was like a god himself" I assumed human DNA was involved. Though in review I can see I could be wrong.

Also when Unit 01 grows a very human looking arm episode 19, that lead me to think more than the soul of Eva was human.

Theory #3 Intro credits to the series lists Rei Anami is listed as public relations for Tokyo TV. The similarities of the names has been noted elsewhere, and I thought I had caught Mari in the credits of EoE.

This one, as previously stated isn't really a theory, just a thought.... You supposes the 5 female leads* (now 6!) of Evangelion are based on real women whom the show's creators know?

*Based on Rebirth's opening "thanks to the 5 women" letter.

View Original Postzachalsorises wrote:This strikes me as a deeply important and interesting Mari moment:

She runs into Shinji, and he drops his walkman. Before she runs off, she hands it back to him. The very next scene he's listening to his walkman, which is having unspecified problems. He says "That's weird..." and we see the track progress from 26 to 27 for the first time in Eva history.

If we don't want to go sequel theory with this, it's an interesting and subtle commentary on Mari's tampering with the world of Eva.

If we do go sequel theory (and we should because it's awesome), it's an interesting and subtle commentary that Shinji's loop of 25 and 26 (corresponding to the episodes of the Third Impact) has been broken, and we've proceeded onward and outward.


Nice observation, score 1 for sequel theory.
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Postby JoeD80 » Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:22 am

View Original PostNumber 44 wrote:Intro credits to the series lists Rei Anami is listed as public relations for Tokyo TV. The similarities of the names has been noted elsewhere

The Anami name is Ana 穴 mi 見 as opposed to A -nami 波. Just a coincidence I think, since Anami worked for TV Tokyo and the Ayanami character was named in the proposal before TV Tokyo decided to do the show on their network.

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Postby Eric Blair » Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:27 pm

This is a long shot and, granted, this "theory" is as flimsy and sound as saying that Sachiel was a homage to Godzilla, and there's no real way this could be pulled out, however...

It is my belief that Mari Makinami is really Asuka Langley Soryu.

Why would I think that? On a intuitive level I guess I want to see Soryu "alive", if that counts as something, in the OMAs; I want to see she is still important enough in the grand scheme of things, and dammit, I want to see her last name again as a counter to all the "Shikinami and Soryu are the same" nonsense.

Consider this: look at all of Mari's interaction; her first scene is her killing an angel by herself while Kaji watches and leaves.

That seems taken out from the manga, right? Especially considering Mari's and Kaji's little exchange in the middle of the battle, as well as her saying "I don't like grownups involved in my business".

Then, her first contact with Shinji is her showing him her panties and almost kissing him.

Doesn't that strike someone else as something Soryu did?

There's also the fact Mari was able to pilot unit 02 would also explain the Soryu angle, plus, the hot blooded piloting of Zeruel... that's like seeing Soryu's last stand against the MP Eva's, admit it.

And then, the thing that clinched it for me was Mari's scene in the Q preview the moment she takes her glasses off, and looks at the camera out of the corner of her eye... I would expect the follow up scene in the film to be Mari taking off the wig, letting her hair fall and shaking it around and saying "finally, I was so sick and tired of pretending to be someone else while that doll used my name".

Like I said, this theory is full of crack and aids, and there is a no-contest chance of it actually happening... but isn't the whole theme of this thread precisely that?
Last edited by Eric Blair on Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby esselfortium » Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:25 pm

Well.. it's an interesting theory. You said yourself it's full of crack and aids, so I don't have to point that out.

I think the biggest issue with anything like what you've proposed, though, is this question: What narrative sense would it make to introduce an alternate version of a character whose importance in the story has been diminished? To me this seems akin to the admittedly more extreme example of expecting to see a clone of Aoba or Hikari in the next film. The impact of such a reveal, even if it could be done in a way that made sense in the story, would be virtually nonexistent to most viewers because of how little importance Shikinami was given.

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Postby Eric Blair » Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:29 pm

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:You said yourself it's full of crack and aids, so I don't have to point that out.

Oh, but you LOVE pointing stuff like that out... unless that by saying you wouldn't point it out you pointed it out, in which case I'm getting a slurpee.

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:What narrative sense would it make to introduce an alternate version of a character whose importance in the story has been diminished?"


[s]The same sense all of 2.22 has had so far.[/s] I thought I had explained that in my opening statement.
Last edited by Eric Blair on Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby oOoOoOo » Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:47 pm

Rebuild is Asuka's dream. She's having it while being mindfucked in the original NGE. Mari is a fragment of her subconscious, fighting through the dream to save her.

This also explains why Shinji's more of a go-getter, and why Rei's less doll-like.

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Postby UrsusArctos » Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:57 pm

Anami and Ayanami are way far apart. Just a coincidence you're looking at.

@Eric: Unfortunately for your theory, Mari's hair doesn't look like much of a wig. But if she turned out to be the old Asuka, well...epic Mind-Screw, anyone?
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Postby Eric Blair » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:11 pm

I adhere to the "full of crack and aids" part of my theory.

Besides, this is animu, wigs look just like normal hair. :smirk:
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:43 pm

View Original PostoOoOoOo wrote:Rebuild is Asuka's dream. She's having it while being mindfucked in the original NGE.


Or sedated in 24'/EoE. >_> Appropriate thread created here!

But my idea on how the Mari = Soryu theory could be possible is the following: Mari and Shikinami are literal representations of two sides (so to speak) of the same person (Soryu) and would somehow be made whole again (through that Key of whatever?). It's not completely far-fetched when anime has done weirder shit, and it'd be nice parallels with NGE Kyoko's bout of insanity and soul splitting/merging.
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