The dubbies rule the earth?

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Re: The dubbies rule the earth?

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Postby The Sandman » Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:58 pm

The Eva Monkey wrote:http://www.animenation.net/news/askjohn.php?id=1226

I swear to god if this is true I will personally murder the other 80% of the anime fanbase.

Welcome to being a minority EM. :P
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Re: The dubbies rule the earth?

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Postby DatDude » Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:01 pm

The Sandman wrote:
The Eva Monkey wrote:http://www.animenation.net/news/askjohn.php?id=1226

I swear to god if this is true I will personally murder the other 80% of the anime fanbase.

Welcome to being a minority EM. :P


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Postby The Sandman » Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:07 pm

DatDude wrote:Monkey sit back and take a look at the situation. People are going to want to watch a TV show in their own language with out subtitles.

Amen DatDude.
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Postby SEELE 08 » Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:15 pm

Seconded.
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Postby Digitalex » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:47 am

Personally I prefer the original Japanese with English subtitles because I do like the sound of the Japanese language. Also as others have said, the quality seems consistently higher.

With that said, I can see how the majority would want to watch it in their native tongue. The important thing to me is that any released shows must include Japanese w/ English subtitles as an option.

As far as Elfen Lied Ryo, I am going to try and watch it dubbed this weekend. I want to see if they do sound dorky.

@Drinian, you have a great point about fansubbing influencing people. Back when I used to rent anime from a local Japanese market (we're talking about 2 decades ago) I watched it strictly in Japanese with NO subtitles. I depended on Animag's synopsis to get me through the show. In any case, I became accustomed to the Japanese voices and now it's rare for me to watch it in dub form if Japanese w/ subtitles is available.

I know my cousin used to watch most anime in dub form until he discovered Naruto and it's fansubs. Now he can't really watch the Naruto english version without making a weird face when the US VAs botch up the emotion or pronunciation of words.
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Postby Archon Divinus » Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:11 am

I'm firmly in the Sub catagory, both because I have a thing about watching things as close to how they were origionaly (no dubs of any foreign film, no colourized versions of old movies, etc.), and because I've never met a dub I liked.

Actualy it's probably more in part to me being a big ol' elitist.

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Postby SEELE 08 » Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:49 am

I generally prefer the dub, because I'm distracted by Japanese, but I'm not against watching it subbed if there is no dub available, or the dub is godawful (Lost Universe, blech), I got through GiTS2 just fine. My mother on the other hand rents a movie and realizes its in French when she get it home but will not watch it because she doesn't want to have to bother to read it. And she wouldn't watch Hero because she thought the Chinese sounded weird. She's the kind of person that gives dubbies a bad name.
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Postby Hexon.Arq » Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:56 pm

After only two years of watching anime, my brain has become wired to anticipate Japanese dialogue when confronted with anything resembling something even close to Japanese animation. Listening to a dub, even a good dub, leaves me in no place to enjoy the show because the dialogue feels... I believe the word is "disembodied", and several attempts at watching anime on TV have actually either put me to sleep or bored me into doing something else because I had trouble following what was going on. Perhaps it has something to do with the mixing, but try as the English VAs might to match the mouthflaps (a time consuming and moronically unnecessary practice), their voices never seem to stuff themselves into the mouths of their characters as authentically as the original actors' do, even though 70% of the time the original actors don't match the flaps at all.

A dub feels like having a story read to me rather than performed. I seriously have absolutely no idea how people put up with it.

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Postby TheBlueTree » Thu Jan 19, 2006 4:13 pm

If i watch the sub the words distract me from the image. so untill i learn Japanese i will watch dubs, and on an occasin a sub or 2
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Postby drinian » Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:03 pm

Digitalex wrote:Back when I used to rent anime from a local Japanese market (we're talking about 2 decades ago) I watched it strictly in Japanese with NO subtitles. I depended on Animag's synopsis to get me through the show. In any case, I became accustomed to the Japanese voices and now it's rare for me to watch it in dub form if Japanese w/ subtitles is available.


TheBlueTree wrote:If i watch the sub the words distract me from the image. so untill i learn Japanese i will watch dubs, and on an occasin a sub or 2

Both of you echo sentiments I've noticed before, especially among early anime fans (Fred "Piro" Gallagher is another good example) demonstrating that to many people anime is a strongly visual medium, sometimes to the point of understanding the language becoming secondary. Have you ever noticed how many anime trailers in the US have absolutely no dialogue but are simply images set to music? While it's probably true that the trailers are often produced before the dub, I think it's indicative of the community as a whole. Many (most?) are in it for the pretty pictures, a tendency which I will not deny in myself either.

Fansubbing helps with this somewhat, as the technical coolness that can be done with hard-subs compared to the soft-subs used on DVDs has led to really well-done sub projects that I would argue are almost visual translations of the work rather than simply translations of the dialogue (see the School Rumble fansub for an excellent example of this). Even so, having to read dialogue takes away from the view of anime as being, essentially, pure visual crack and I think that this has led to a tolerance of bad dubs.

Even with the best sub, however, a show is going to have different cultural meaning for a non-Japanese audience. There are ways to mitigate this. For instance, in School Rumble, the fansubbers occasionally used drop-down boxes at the top of the screen to explain jokes or ideas that would require tremendous cultural literacy to know: for instance, there's a recurring joke based on the fact that the word "kappa" can refer both to a raincoat and a mythical frog-creature. This is a joke that simply can't work in English. At the same time, they've chosen to retain Japanese honorific titles and some vocabulary (esp. "nee-san" for big sister) in the translated dialogue, requiring a basic knowledge of Japanese to appreciate what's going on. In fact, I think the show could be very unfunny in another language.

Rewarding as it may be, most people cannot be expected to make that kind of effort when watching a show. I think that dubs have a place as a cultural translation, allowing an easier entry point into an alien society. They are perhaps at their best when they are loose translations, works of literature onto themselves. Compare, for instance, the casual Eva viewer with the type of fan who would peruse this site. While the latter may feel they appreciate the series on a "higher" level, the former has still been entertained, and everyone gets to go on with their life.

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Postby Space Penis » Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:39 pm

Toilet Duck wrote:what's so wrong with gendo in Japanese? they didn't have him do this "GRRR I'M A TOUGH, GRUFF BASTARD" thing that the english dub put him through.


Not so much "Gruff bastard" as "MWUAHAHAHHA I AM A CLICHED MAD SCIENTIST!"
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Postby myheadexplode » Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:45 pm

personally, i like both sub and dub. However, I cannot STAND dubbers like 4kids who buy properties and change them into a fully "american" story for 4 year olds to relate to. Bad VAing is kind of a minor annoyance, but changing storyline, editing images, and removing vital plot points is an offence punishable by death in my book.

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Postby Digitalex » Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:32 am

drinian wrote:Both of you echo sentiments I've noticed before, especially among early anime fans (Fred "Piro" Gallagher is another good example) demonstrating that to many people anime is a strongly visual medium, sometimes to the point of understanding the language becoming secondary. Have you ever noticed how many anime trailers in the US have absolutely no dialogue but are simply images set to music? While it's probably true that the trailers are often produced before the dub, I think it's indicative of the community as a whole. Many (most?) are in it for the pretty pictures, a tendency which I will not deny in myself either.


Interesting point. I suppose it is indeed a strong visual medium. It's even funnier since I do like to make AMVs. However, as strong as an eye-candy it is, the story is what retains my attention. Take for example Evangelion. It's animation today is not anything to write home about but the story (bad dub and all) is what hooked me. I won't deny that I did find the characters attractive in a physical sense but it was the story that truly kept my attention.

Even with the best sub, however, a show is going to have different cultural meaning for a non-Japanese audience. There are ways to mitigate this. For instance, in School Rumble, the fansubbers occasionally used drop-down boxes at the top of the screen to explain jokes or ideas that would require tremendous cultural literacy to know: for instance, there's a recurring joke based on the fact that the word "kappa" can refer both to a raincoat and a mythical frog-creature. This is a joke that simply can't work in English. At the same time, they've chosen to retain Japanese honorific titles and some vocabulary (esp. "nee-san" for big sister) in the translated dialogue, requiring a basic knowledge of Japanese to appreciate what's going on. In fact, I think the show could be very unfunny in another language.

I definitely agree about the cultural meaning being affected. I can accept why it is changed although I don't necessarily agree with it.

Honorifics to me is a HUGE issue. When watching Tsukihime dub, I cringe at the sound of "Brother!" coming from Akiha's mouth. It just sounds so wrong in English. However, say it Japanese a million times and it sounds like music to my ears.
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Postby DatDude » Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:05 am

Maybe its just me but people just take this issue way to seriously. I got into anime because I like cartoons and Japan was the best place to find well writen stuff at the time ( teen titains was a few years away :) ).

I hear people get worked up over this its grinding on my nerves ( and that does piss me off I'll admit ), these are still cartoons people relax.
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Postby Digitalex » Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:18 am

DatDude wrote:Maybe its just me but people just take this issue way to seriously. I got into anime because I like cartoons and Japan was the best place to find well writen stuff at the time ( teen titains was a few years away :) ).

I hear people get worked up over this its grinding on my nerves ( and that does piss me off I'll admit ), these are still cartoons people relax.


Yep they are but these things still bug me. However, I don't get dramatic over it in real life like I sound on the these forums. It's like Eva discussions. I'll submerse myself in them on these forums but when I go out the door back into the real world people don't even know I am into anime.
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Postby SEELE 08 » Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:25 am

Digitalex wrote:
DatDude wrote:Maybe its just me but people just take this issue way to seriously. I got into anime because I like cartoons and Japan was the best place to find well writen stuff at the time ( teen titains was a few years away :) ).

I hear people get worked up over this its grinding on my nerves ( and that does piss me off I'll admit ), these are still cartoons people relax.


Yep they are but these things still bug me. However, I don't get dramatic over it in real life like I sound on the these forums. It's like Eva discussions. I'll submerse myself in them on these forums but when I go out the door back into the real world people don't even know I am into anime.


I don't even mention I'm into anime for two reasons. First most people who do have an inkling what it is are like "oh DBZ?" or "Pokeman, isn't that kids' stuff". Second if they do know what it is, they are probably frightenling obsessive, like the girl in my dorm who thinks bad cosplay is ok everyday attire.
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Postby Heidroch » Fri Jan 20, 2006 2:36 am

Digitalex wrote:Yep they are but these things still bug me. However, I don't get dramatic over it in real life like I sound on the these forums. It's like Eva discussions. I'll submerse myself in them on these forums but when I go out the door back into the real world people don't even know I am into anime.


Same here. This very forum is the only place where I talk about anime, period.

Still, as to the dubs vs. subs debate, I really have no problem with watching the show either way. I will usually watch a series both subbed and dubbed, with no quirks either way. Sometimes I'll decide what way I'll watch it at the flip of a coin :)

As drinian mentioned, there are going to be things lost in translation just because of the culture/language barrier.
The FLCL dvd set is so far the best dvd set I have which confronts this problem: Not only does the series have a great dub, but the discs come with cultural references booklets, and each episode has a director's commentary track made for the u.s. release. On the commentary he explains cultural references the average american viewer may miss along with the usual director's cut information. I was surprised at how much in the show I really did miss before I heard the commentary.

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Postby Digitalex » Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:12 am

Heidroch wrote:The FLCL dvd set is so far the best dvd set I have which confronts this problem: Not only does the series have a great dub, but the discs come with cultural references booklets, and each episode has a director's commentary track made for the u.s. release. On the commentary he explains cultural references the average american viewer may miss along with the usual director's cut information. I was surprised at how much in the show I really did miss before I heard the commentary.


Ahh! I think I will add that next to my collection. I actually caught one episode on Cartoon Network one night and really liked it. The dub sounded good. On a different note, I noticed one thing since finally watching Evangelion. I've been exposing myself to more anime that wasn't centered around mecha (Gundam/Macross) or martial arts fighting (Ninja Scroll/DBZ/Naruto).
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Postby Heidroch » Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:51 pm

Digitalex wrote:Ahh! I think I will add that next to my collection. I actually caught one episode on Cartoon Network one night and really liked it. The dub sounded good. On a different note, I noticed one thing since finally watching Evangelion. I've been exposing myself to more anime that wasn't centered around mecha (Gundam/Macross) or martial arts fighting (Ninja Scroll/DBZ/Naruto).


Go for it. It's a really good series, and it's easy on the wallet since it is only 6 episodes long. But if you do go out and buy it, keep in mind that only the older dvd versions have the cultural references booklet. So you may have to look for a store that you know has been carrying their copies for a while, which may not be an easy task.

Thankfully, the dvd casees are clear. So you can check by looking through the sides of the case and seeing if there is a little booklet in there.

Unfortunately, the only volume I could find which has the cultural reference booklet was the third one. Oh well, the director's commentary on each disc is still well worth it.

Oh and did I mention that the director of FLCL was Kazuya Tsurumaki? The same guy who directed EoE? 8)

And to relate to the topic- In the commentary, Tsurumaki makes a few comments about dubs. He says that he really likes the english dubs of the show. 8)
And if the show's director likes the english dub of his own show, how can you argue against it? :)

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Postby Digitalex » Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:01 pm

Heidroch"][quote="Digitalex wrote:Oh and did I mention that the director of FLCL was Kazuya Tsurumaki? The same guy who directed EoE? 8)

And to relate to the topic- In the commentary, Tsurumaki makes a few comments about dubs. He says that he really likes the english dubs of the show. 8)
And if the show's director likes the english dub of his own show, how can you argue against it? :)


Good call on the booklets. Amazon is usually a good online source if I need to find that version. I was able to get older box+DVD1s of other anime when I couldn't find it locally.

Yeah I was aware of Tsurumaki. Also from what I read among Gainax fans, FLCL was one of the few releases since NGE that was considered good quality.
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