Preemptive TL;DR -- when will all the dorky shit you like be totally mainstream? How? Why? Etc?

Yes, I'm talking in the future. (Not the actual year 2000.) I was thinking about the near-masturbatory discussion I had with Yojimbo-kun towards the end of this thread about mainstream respectability for anime and whatnot. I was also thinking how sites like Wikipedia are full of anime/manga/videogames stuff, yet the "old media" still doesn't talk about that stuff much. Certainly I do not openly profess my love of Neon Genesis Evangelion or Final Fantasy at Christmas dinner. Universities don't have any fancy courses on this kind of thing (with some exceptions). How soon until Yojimbo-kun can publish a multi-volume analysis of Neon Genesis Evangelion?

If the cultural discussion is ruled by the people controlling media, does that mean the geek-filled "new media" will change the discussion? Will our children grow up looking at Anno-san (or whichever geek/otaku icon you prefer) the same way we look to whatever old guys past generations dig? More importantly, will the children of people who don't even like this shit find that their kids are totally sucked in? Is the new world just beyond the corner? How much hyperbole can you withstand?

So when does the future arrive? Will your children be brainwashed with a steady diet of Super Mario and Ghibli? When I get my fifth degree, will it be in shojo studies? When does society collapse completely?

I actually don't know, to be honest.

And as a completely honest question (since I haven't been in high school since Ahmadinejad attacked the World Trade Centre), are the young people today more openly into this stuff? Does being a geek/otaku still get you sent to loserville in high school?

On that note, I will leave you with this, my inspiration for the topic:

Kiel wrote:Is it just me, or are we being persecuted for our "beliefs" a lot more lately?

Dave wrote:You are alone Kiel.

Also, this thread is my apology for making Evageeks the number one Google result for !#@$&%*&@ing advice.

Maybe one day we can have degrees in Maiding...

That wasn't long at all.

Just about every single kid in my graduating class knows Pokemon well. I am among the, like, six otakus, but I don't know it at all. Anyways, someone placed a computer version of some Gameboy Pokemon game on the school server and that's all anyone talked about for basically the last two weeks of senior year.

Anime is not that indie when I'm the only left out of the anime discussions. Even if it is just Pokemon.

Considering the media conservatives of today is the Baby Boom Generation, the biggest generation, it will not be till Generations Y and Z are in control till major changes can be expected. Still, that is to far away to predict.

Pretty much everything that I do starting from the early 90's became mainstream in the late 90's, thanks to broadband and there being computers everywhere.

when the transformers movies came out, kids started thinking that it was cool to start wearing g1 shirts from hot topic, even though i bet most of them haven't seen g1 at all. its because its whats popular at the moment. they may like it on the surface, but their dedication ends at the movies.

otakus/japanophiles/whatevers are made fun of because of their dedication to trying to be Japanese, some anime character, et cetera, pretty much anything that they're really not. its the same with any other group really, people don't like them because they're phonies. there are plenty of people that like anime and other geeky stuff without being looked weirdly upon, because they don't let their hobby become their identity.

Wasn't there a US congressman who said "Anime is an example of why 2 atomic bombs weren't enough"? That should explain it all.

Surely you exaggerate Ornette, but I think I know what you mean. When I was in elementary school, having an email address was a sure sign of being an incredible loser. ICQ, MSN, all these things... marks of a loser. When I got to university and people started asking me for my MSN, I was completely taken off guard. Definitely for a girl it was a big deal if you were into computers. I didn't let the other girls know about that for years. The fact that I knew how to use a dial-up modem was pretty much the same thing as admitting that I was sexually attracted to other girls, which is another thread entirely.

But what of the future, peoples? All this anime stuff. Is it ever going to become mainstream? American comics have been around for ages and they're finally getting loads of blockbuster movies, but at the same time, I still think a grown man in a business suit would probably get looked at sideways for reading a comic book on the bus.

Presumably it isn't a case of a lack of "high art" coming out of otaku land. I think most of us would agree that "Neon Genesis Evangelion" or "Monster" can stand up to many of the stories high school students are forced to study. I know a few young teachers who are interested in using "graphic novels" in English class, but most of them still get wet thinking about Shakespeare, which 90% of high school students simply fake their way through.

Gamer137 wrote:Considering the media conservatives of today is the Baby Boom Generation, the biggest generation, it will not be till Generations Y and Z are in control till major changes can be expected. Still, that is to far away to predict.

I was actually thinking about this this morning, about what kind of changes will be taking place when the Baby Boomers will be exiting, stage left. Considering that the start of the baby boom was 65 years ago, I figure we'll start to see the effects of the passing of the guard within the next few years.

However, I'm not a very imaginative person, but I would think that the effects of the changeover are already beginning to be felt. Although, it's difficult to distinguish between what stems from Generation X,Y,and Zers beginning to take over things and what stems from the massive advances in computer technology, especially over the last 20-odd years. We're transitioning from a generation where almost all of them weren't able to use computers before they got to college to a generation that's grown up with having one in their household.

I think the effects of this continued changeover will be a continuing switch of things to the mainstream that used to be considered geekdom, such as blogging. The old joys of computer nerdery, such as dazzling others with system specs and whatnot, has been somewhat of an occupation for humans probably since time immemorial. I'd expect, as an entire generation becomes immersed in computing, you'll hear people talking about their computers much like their father and grandfathers did with muscle cars.

Other things considered niche even by geekdom will probably remain out of the mainstream, at least for the foreseeable future. Anime got broadcast to an entire generation on Toonami, and it's still considered fairly niche for a hobby. I don't see that changing too soon, although it might consider on a slow lurch towards the mainstream, unless studios keep making a steady diet of the moe crap they're putting out.

oOoOoOo wrote:Surely you exaggerate Ornette, but I think I know what you mean. When I was in elementary school, having an email address was a sure sign of being an incredible loser. ICQ, MSN, all these things... marks of a loser. When I got to university and people started asking me for my MSN, I was completely taken off guard. Definitely for a girl it was a big deal if you were into computers. I didn't let the other girls know about that for years. The fact that I knew how to use a dial-up modem was pretty much the same thing as admitting that I was sexually attracted to other girls, which is another thread entirely.

You'll have to go back further than that. Email addresses were something only a handful of institutions had, and were used mostly internally. There was no AOL or Prodigy, and home computers were used as word processors or for playing games. The work done in those closed off institutions helped create the standards that most of what the average person accessing the internet sees. None of that would have been mainstream if it wasn't for the infrastructure, which eventually led to cheap non-commercial broadband. Of course, that infrastructure also made a lot of things that sounded like good ideas 20 years ago obsolete. I happened to be working on things back then that aren't part of the things that went obsolete.

That's part of the problem when it comes to technology. There are steps and there are outright "whoops, that's a wrong turn entirely". Design paradigms for IC layout were thrown out the window when the copper process was invented (being able to bombard atoms of copper on a bed of silicon with sub-micron precision). Now we can pack so many transistors in just the fraction of the space, increasing transistor count to the point where no human is going to be laying this out by hand, we're going to need computers to do this (very difficult problem). That's a logical step that obsoletes an old way.

When 2-way PCS was being worked on in the mid-90's, people realized that we can now push data onto phones (sort of like a pre-cursor to text messaging), and people and companies started to invest time and money into how we can use that to connect people to services, like email. Research In Motion created a nice device that had a keyboard and everything. The phone companies went the other way, eventually there was GPRS, which was much more robust but unfortunately did things differently where the data is involved. All that work for nothing. That's a branching of technology and one branch won out, sort of like VHS and Betamax but if VHS was actually better.

When you're working on something new right now, and it involves forward looking risks, there's the chance that it'll become mainstream and you're awesome. Or something else entirely different happens and at best what you're doing is relegated to the "this is kind of interesting, but ultimately useless" category of things.

When it comes to Arts or Entertainment, it's obviously different since it's something more personal than, say, a bunch of people in a closed room deciding on a standard that may or may not be used to build something that ultimately you can buy as a consumer (for example). I don't have anything much to say about this kind of mainstream.

oOoOoOo wrote:All this anime stuff. Is it ever going to become mainstream? American comics have been around for ages and they're finally getting loads of blockbuster movies, but at the same time, I still think a grown man in a business suit would probably get looked at sideways for reading a comic book on the bus.

The fact that anime is over here (in the US, can't speak for the rest of the world) in such abundance and sold at major retail outlets tells me that it's already breached the mainstream. Also, the people buying comic books these days are generally in their 20s and 30s anyway, though 40-somethings picking up the latest Green Lantern or Avengers issue aren't uncommon either.

The manga section in Barnes and Nobel is always larger than the graphic novels/comics section.

^You seriously have no idea how freakishly f**king annoying that is for Marvel fans like myself. Honestly, WHAT HAPPENED!?

^Find a local comic shop. That's where I get most of my comic goods from.
though I've never been a Marvel fan, but it's not like it doesn't affect the rest of us, too

oOoOoOo wrote:Certainly I do not openly profess my love of Neon Genesis Evangelion or Final Fantasy at Christmas dinner.

You mean I'm the only one?

oOoOoOo wrote:How soon until Yojimbo-kun can publish a multi-volume analysis of Neon Genesis Evangelion?

Geez... knowing my knack for procrastination and flightiness when it comes to things that seem like they'd be a lot of work... maybe in 20 years or so.

oOoOoOo wrote:If... Will... Is... How much.. When... etc. snip

Honestly I think it's inevitable. Geek culture HAS pretty much gone mainstream. I think much of this is due to the fact that regular people have become more and more open to avenues that were classically considered "geeky" and have not only found them fun and interesting but absolutely essential to our daily lives. This applies to everything from the internet to video games. With the movie blockbuster trend lately being all about superheroes, fantasy, sci-fi and comic book and anime adaptations I feel it's only a matter of time before the sources themselves become like the Godfathers of the modern movement. They'll be like a German Expressionism to the modern noirs where everyone looks back and says "Yeah, it all started with them... THEY inspired everything you love now".

I don't know if NGE will ever reach that level, but I definitely think many, many things like it will. Geek Chic, and all that stuff. It's not just a fashion anymore.

Ornette! Thanks for that post. You've brought a perspective to the topic that I didn't really expect, and that pleases me. My relatives in computing (many of whom worked on room-sized computers in various universities long, long ago) sometimes speak of teletype machines and punch card computing, so I'm glad you shared that. I think it must be satisfying to see such things spread, sort of like seeing a child growing up and doing great things in the world. It must be a similar joy to seeing an obscure band you enjoy eventually getting the recognition it deserves.

I so remember a time long before we ever had a modem, using a computer and maybe playing some kind of old, old, old Sierra game. I was convinced that games magically spawned from within this computer, much like money spawned from the ATM.

planet news wrote:The manga section in Barnes and Nobel is always larger than the graphic novels/comics section.

Twin Drive Sigma Aquarion wrote:^You seriously have no idea how freakishly f**king annoying that is for Marvel fans like myself. Honestly, WHAT HAPPENED!?

Though there are exceptions this is, it is largely the fault of Marvel and DC for their rampant misogyny. Why, the costume design alone is enough to make me barf. What manga provides is a world of comics written by and for the ladies. What happened? Shojo and josei happened. ^^;

As for manga/anime in general, I think Disney and the like are keeping things in the ghetto of children's entertainment. Disney released its dubs of Ghibli films in obscure art house theatres, under "Miramax". Ghibli's been getting more love, but then the Oscars set up another ghetto for best animated film, to ensure the "Beauty and the Beast" fiasco never happen again. A young O-chan certainly thought it deserved best picture. I mean, a band like the Beatles was once assumed to be the domain of love-struck teen girls, but now they are held up as one of the finest bands in pop music.

Yojimbo-kun wrote:With the movie blockbuster trend lately being all about superheroes, fantasy, sci-fi and comic book and anime adaptations I feel it's only a matter of time before the sources themselves become like the Godfathers of the modern movement.

Yes yes. This is my dream. Nowadays Tolkien is a respectable subject that I can bring up around ordinary humans, but I definitely still get weird "are you talking about porn?" looks when I talk about anime/manga.

I'm starting to see a lot of up-and-coming young novelists claiming anime and whatnot has influenced them, and I think that kind of push is important. When the people who dominate the conversation are fans of things like Evangelion, that's when more people will feel compelled to join in. Perhaps we are that generation? I'm not sure. As long as people who love these things make it in various parts of the art world, I think we'll see things change.

oOoOoOo wrote:Yes yes. This is my dream. Nowadays Tolkien is a respectable subject that I can bring up around ordinary humans, but I definitely still get weird "are you talking about porn?" looks when I talk about anime/manga.

Although, to be fair, the quality/value of Tolkien's writing is still debated amongst intellectuals and literary people, he certainly is comparatively mainstream thanks to Jackson. In general, most of the people I'm around have only the vaguest idea of what I mean when I say anime. Most have roughly associated it with things like Pokemon and are surprised to find that someone likes me likes it, so they usually ask what I'm talking about and I tell them. Most have seemed pretty open to it... hell, I even got my cousin hooked on Sailor Moon when we were younger!

oOoOoOo wrote:I'm starting to see a lot of up-and-coming young novelists claiming anime and whatnot has influenced them, and I think that kind of push is important. When the people who dominate the conversation are fans of things like Evangelion, that's when more people will feel compelled to join in. Perhaps we are that generation?

You can probably see anime's influence even more so in film with directors like the Wachowskis. When The Matrix came out, all of a sudden it seemed to provoke a renewed interest in anime since they cited Ghost in the Shell as a major inspiration. Wes Anderson (I think it was) openly cited NGE as an inspiration, saying that he could see how it might form a 'religion' like Scientology! I do feel like we're part of that generation. I mean, I have definitely seen a shift towards the acceptance and critical praise of anime from younger filmmakers and critics. I know several who list Miyazaki as a favorite, and a few who love Oshii, one who lists Takahata's Only Yesterday as his favorite film...

It just seems that younger generations aren't as bound by the prejudices of the past and are always looking for new things to latch onto and to call their own and to elevate to the same level as the "accepted" standards and masterpieces. Video Games, comics, and anime seem to be some of those things for this generation... or, if not this one, then definitely the next.

oOoOoOo wrote:Though there are exceptions this is, it is largely the fault of Marvel and DC for their rampant misogyny. Why, the costume design alone is enough to make me barf.

Heh. You really need to read Adam Warren's Empowered. It's a manga-influenced western comic featuring a confidence-deprived super heroine whose powers derive from a skintight alien supersuit... that unfortunately seems to tear at the slightest contact, rendering her generally helpless. The hero business is more of a sideshow though, as more often than not the comic tends towards a slice of life feel.

Now I get it. oOoOoOo is talking about the day when I won't have to worry about seeing a dadface whenever he catches me watching my girl cartoons.

planet news wrote:Now I get it. oOoOoOo is talking about the day when I won't have to worry about seeing a dadface whenever he catches me watching my girl cartoons.

Depends on what kind of girl cartoons they are... Surely you'd get a different reaction depending on whether you were watching the cartoon girls in La Blue Girl VS Serial Experiments Lain...