Fuyutsuki?

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:04 am

SSD: The most logical explanation to me is that it simply made more sense NOT to inform Gendo at that time. Since we're left in the dark on so much ourselves, we can't possibly know all the reasons, but certainly they had to weigh the advantages against the disadvantages and do what seemed most prudent.

As for the impact stuff, there's always this old "gem": http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?t=703
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Postby Fazmotron » Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:20 pm

Could Yui have known Gendo would react to her death by trying to initiate 3rd Impact? 3I and her status as a "god" is what Yui was after right?
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Postby carla » Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:29 pm

my general opinion of fuyutsuki-sensei is that he was a very stupid man, even in all his intelligence. like reichu (i think?) pointed out, he was initially looking for a way to stop all of this from happening, but in the end got swept away into the "this is inevitable" camp and even if he was working against SEELE from the inside, he certainly wasn't working against 3I in any capacity-- he was all for gendo's (or rather, yui's?) plan.

his motives i felt were very ambiguous, so we end up with a few possibilities. (keep in mind anything after "in which case" for every option is just my personal opinion about it):

1. he went along with the plan because he truly believed 3I would lead humanity to higher evolution/immortality/whatever. in which case he is at best a well-intentioned extremist, at worst he's closer to SEELE's end of the spectrum than gendo is.

2. he went along with the plan because he saw 3I as inevitable, so resigned to the idea that he couldn't do anything to stop it by himself and he might as well go with the flow even if it meant the end of humanity. in which case he's a big coward.

3. he went along with the plan because yui seemed to think it was the way to go, and we all know how he felt about yui. in which case, he's mighty, mighty stupid IMO, because he was fully aware he wouldn't even get to be with yui in this scenario.

4. he went along with the plan because he truly couldn't let go of his past, would never get to be with yui and couldn't handle it, but was too weak to end his own miserable existence, so he thought it'd be easier if the whole world ended at the same time. in which case he's just a big, selfish jerk, and probably just as selfish as gendo.

there's a lot of positive things one can say about fuyutsuki-sensei. he didn't kill anybody (that we know of), he wasn't involved in 2I in any fashion, and initially in episode 21 it seems like he was first drawn into project-E for the science behind it. but he made a lot of questionable choices later on, and i think his motivations are key here-- we just can't really be sure exactly what made him tick. given the fact that he saw yui during tangification, i tend to go with option 3. but maybe it was a combination of all of the above, who knows.
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Postby thewayneiac » Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:33 pm

^ 5. He went along with it because he believed 3I was inevitable and he believed that if Yui directed 3I there was a chance that mankind would survive it. The would be no such chance if Seele directed 3I.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:51 pm

Simple. Gendo wouldn't of agreed to the plan and would've made a fuss.
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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:59 pm

The stuff about the 2I or 3I being inevitable tends to throw a lot of people in for a loop. The show doesn't go out of its way to explain why they're inevitable, which is admittedly lame, but probably the best we can do is assume that they, for some reason, ARE inevitable, and interpret character actions and motives around that premise.

@carla: NGE tends to present us with characters who are, like real people, paradoxes, and combine seemingly incongruous traits. For example, a very intelligent person can do or believe stupid things, and someone who isn't that bright can display profound wisdom. By the same token, someone can be both brave and cowardly in a single stroke. Just something to think about.

Fuyutsuki along with his partners Gendo and Yui seem to polarize the audience a great deal. They are involved in mysterious and at times incoherent plans to save humanity from destruction. We don't know exactly why they are committed to doing things the way that they do, which opens them to all sorts of "why are they doing this and not this?" scrutiny. In order to accomplish something against gargantuan odds, they have to made incredible moral compromises, and that combined with the scale of their goals automatically "puts them on trial": "How can someone with personal flaws like yours dare to be humanity's messiah! Who the hell do you think you are?"

Imagining myself in a similar position, where I'm in the precarious role of being able to prevent incredible loss to the world only through personal sacrifice and moral compromise, it seems like it would be a pretty ensnaring and extremely thankless lot, but nonetheless a difficult one to turn down. Especially if the alternative is being erased for knowing too much, in which case I get to rot in a ditch instead of continuing to work towards humanity's well-being.
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Postby carla » Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:44 pm

@thewayneiac-- yep, guess that's another option.

what sticks with me from the flashback in EoE is that it seems like they're already assuming "mankind's survival" implies only one person (the soul inside the eva)-- and from there it really depends on whether you think actively planning for the survival of only one person is a good or a bad thing. i personally don't subscribe to the idea that 3I is inevitable. but yeah, definitely counts as good option.


@reichu-- yes, i definitely see your point. i think, in each of these "options," i can understand where fuyutsuki-sensei was coming from, and i understand how he can react that way because people can react that way. (this is much like i feel i understand why gendo did the things he did, and why yui did the things she did, etc). it's just that my understanding their motives doesn't justify their actions, and it doesn't necessarily mean i agree with them, or think they're right.

i may see myself maybe behaving in exactly the same way if i were put in the same situation-- yes, i'm just human after all. humans make mistakes. but that's the thing: i'll still feel i made a mistake. and i'll accordingly feel like a coward, a jerk, an idiot, an evil bastard, etc depending on what the mistake was. which is why i felt that way about fuyutsuki/gendo/yui/etc. does that make any sense? it's not about the flaws they might have, but about the choices they make because or despite those flaws.

i'm aware i'm very black-and-white about this issue, though. perhaps i'm too idealistic in my cynicism? i was just pointing out possible motivations for the man, which is why i made sure to state that the latter part of each option was just personal opinion.
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Postby Tycho » Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:44 pm

Whoa whoa whoa! Fuyutsuki is there to make sure no one destroys humanity (and to make mild philosophical comments at Gendo, of course!)

*First of all, they HAD to do Project EVA to stop the angels and prevent their 3I => humankind extinction.
*He figured in order to do that he would have to join the "devil", he would deal with SEELE's 3I when the time came. First objective was the angels. And every choice he would have to make would be weighted against mankind's survival. The logical choice Fuyutsuki-sensei would make.
*It's very possible Yui/Gendo quickly presented the whole DEAL before him and then admitted there was no way they would follow SEELE's scenario. Yui specially was all happy with giving life to a son and making sure he would lead a happy life. Why would she be that way if she intended to destroy her son in 14 years? And no, leading a happy life doesn't mean giving him the choice of complementing the entire world or not.
*Throughout the entire series Fuyutsuki is very concerned with humankind's survival and even with Earth's status. It's not just that he prefers a world full of LIVING people, however "sinful" they are, he seems to also regret the state of decay of the Earth (there are no more seasons and he even dislikes having to "redraw the map"!). When he starts his flashback one of the first thing he says is the world still had seasons back then, maybe I'm reading too much into it but I'm sure he felt sad even about that.
*He went all detective over 2I and was really pissed when he found out it was a man-made incident.
*After Yui's "death", he's very displeased/shocked to hear Gendo has greenlighted the Instrumentality project.
*So given his remarks in regards to humankind and the Earth and his loyalty towards Gendo, my guess is that the best way of counteracting SEELE's third impact and prevent the extinction of mankind was doing Gendo's 3I. They would play along with SEELE, keeping them as happy as possible and when the time came they would hijack 3I from SEELE and do Gendo's intead.

*His thoughts on Gendo after first meeting him are great!
*He wasn't in love with Yui.

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Postby Killer Bee » Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:58 pm

View Original PostTycho wrote:*His thoughts on Gendo after first meeting him are great!
*He wasn't in love with Yui.


:facepalm:

This is sarcasm, right? It has to be sarcasm.

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Postby Monk Ed » Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:22 pm

:( When I first saw the forced cross-play segment (in NGE2, PSP version only I believe,) I didn't want to believe it, I wanted to believe it was just being played for laughs. It was there for comedy, sure, but it also illustrates that Fuyutsuki had the potential to do something like that, even if he never actually did it within the series(... that we know of). It's sort of a "Fuyutsuki does ... this?" "Yes, this is also me" moment.

...Not that I can blame him too much, I mean, it is Shinji... And yeah, what he was really obsessed with was Yui, but that would never hold up in pedo-court.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:59 pm

Both the Fuyutsuki sequence (Fuyutsuki wanting to chat with Shinji about Yui, then forcing him to dress up as Yui in various outfits--I think Shinji's hit on the head in the end. >_>) and Kaji sequence (Kaji cross-dresses and hits on Shinji as a way to teach him about dealing with girls--though Misato hits Kaji and calls him a pervert for wearing her clothes. >_> ) ARE meant to be played for laughs, considering 1) Both scenes feature an ironic use of Ode to joy. 2) They're both from the scenario (PSP Scenario 2: "But I love this world") where Shinji has to build high relationships with everybody minus Pen Pen as the goal of you winning that particular game.

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Postby Azathoth » Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:54 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Azathoth: Some of your criticisms are valid, but I think you're being extreme to the point of warping information and selectively ignoring much of what little we're provided on Fuyutsuki's character. For example:


Oh, absolutely. Just trying to provoke a little discussion, best way is to make a bunch of vaguely-worded assertions.

View Original PostReichu wrote:- Gendo "beating him to Yui" is the (only) reason Fuyutsuki treated him harshly (on the expedition ship I assume)? Are you SURE?


Reviewing episode 21 to try and remember why exactly I said this, I discovered that what I was thinking of - Fuyutsuki being an ass to Gendou when he bails him out - actually takes place before Fuyutsuki found out that Yui and Gendou were dating. Hm. May be hate at first sight, then, because Fuyutsuki is just flat-out rude for no apparent reason - sure, he's probably annoyed at having to vouch to the cops for some dude who got in a bar fight, but insulting Gendou isn't going to make it better, surely a little maturity isn't too much to ask.

View Original PostReichu wrote:- In what way was his advice largely bad?


It's useless. He talks in vagaries that Gendou mostly ignores - and is right to.

View Original PostReichu wrote:- He "walked away from" his interrogation only because Seele allowed it. As for him yielding to the procedures -- I'm not sure exactly what that proves. (I guess a lot, if you're framing your argument through a "Fuyutsuki sucks" framework.)


Why did he want to tell SEELE anything at all? This is the same guy who was preaching against SEELE for justice, for the victims of Second Impact (and then realized "oh whoops, that was naive and now they're going to kill me, better join forces with them lol"). He didn't have any reason to tell them anything other than to go fuck themselves. Maybe he was trying to protect himself? But surely he knew that SEELE weren't going to let him go just because he told them the truth.

Basically, he gave them weapons against Gendou, Yui, and NERV, although they had no way of making him doing.

View Original PostReichu wrote:- How does Yui "shaft" him?


Well, she sure doesn't float down from the heavens to be his eternal waifu. Fuyutsuki always knew that she wasn't planning on it, sure...but he still hoped for it, more than anything else, apparently. I have to wonder if there was any other reason that he continued to work to help her, other than the false hope that she was going to ditch her plan in favor of him.

View Original PostReichu wrote:Even though Fuyutsuki is not a social person, the show makes a point of establishing that he actually cares about humanity...
That he ends up working with Gehirn is partially out of self-preservation, yes -- but Gendo had forced Fuyutsuki to confront the sheer scale of Seele's cohort workings, and made it obvious that what Fuyutsuki hopes to do (crush Seele, so that people can have a future, however tainted with sin the world might be) cannot be accomplished by one person, let alone through a solution so naively simple as Fuyutsuki had hoped. Sometimes the best way to gut your enemy is from within.


But he doesn't try to gut his enemy. He comes to Gehirn waving his dox and going on about justice and truth, and then Gendou tells him "no, stop being dumb, btw want a job?" and Fuyutsuki just takes the job and conveniently forgets about it. Unless you're counting helping Gendou as a means to his own ends - and I don't see why, since he doesn't appear to have any ends left at this point - he totally gives up on bringing SEELE down for the sake of humanity so that he can tag after Gendou. Was Gendou planning to bring SEELE down? Doubtless. Did Fuyutsuki follow Gendou because of that? I don't think so. I think he just follows Gendou because he can't think of anything else to do.
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Postby Tycho » Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:44 pm

View Original PostKiller Bee wrote::facepalm:

This is sarcasm, right? It has to be sarcasm.


Sadly, no.

*"disagreeable fellow" is the best you will ever get.

*I'm sure he found Yui hot, and got enticed by her intellect. But she was a child to him. He didn't love her in the way we are talking about ("Oh I love you so much I want us to get married and be happy and live together and have your babies"). He was her mentor and she was a brilliant young student he wished good for. He didn't like Gendo because he looked like a power hungry bastard who was using Yui, not because he "stole" her from him.

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:I think he just follows Gendou because he can't think of anything else to do.


What about preventing the Angels from starting third impact and then preventing SEELE from doing that too? I'm pretty sure he thought of that.

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Postby NemZ » Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:19 pm

Reichu wrote:The stuff about the 2I or 3I being inevitable tends to throw a lot of people in for a loop. The show doesn't go out of its way to explain why they're inevitable, which is admittedly lame, but probably the best we can do is assume that they, for some reason, ARE inevitable, and interpret character actions and motives around that premise.


Time-traveling Rei wrote the SDSS as some sort of diary, then fixed her pallet-swap complexion somehow so that she actually ends up being Yui, and thus is able to insure that this whole time loop occurs. Yui/01 travels out into space and backwards in time so that she can insure that Adam and Lilith both arrive on Earth, takes Lilith's spear in mid flight, then goes back even further and kills herself on a remote world in the very distant past, releasing souls into red space and allowing her body to dissolve into the LCL biomaterial from which the FAR would later evolve.

:rei_hissyfit: :scanners_head: :yui_grin:
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Postby AuraTwilight » Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:54 pm

*I'm sure he found Yui hot, and got enticed by her intellect. But she was a child to him. He didn't love her in the way we are talking about ("Oh I love you so much I want us to get married and be happy and live together and have your babies"). He was her mentor and she was a brilliant young student he wished good for. He didn't like Gendo because he looked like a power hungry bastard who was using Yui, not because he "stole" her from him.


Hahahahaha, yea, you keep telling yourself. that. Yui is what appeared to him when Rei was appearing as people's most beloved in the world.
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Postby child of Lilith » Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:17 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Time-traveling Rei wrote the SDSS as some sort of diary, then fixed her pallet-swap complexion somehow so that she actually ends up being Yui, and thus is able to insure that this whole time loop occurs. Yui/01 travels out into space and backwards in time so that she can insure that Adam and Lilith both arrive on Earth, takes Lilith's spear in mid flight, then goes back even further and kills herself on a remote world in the very distant past, releasing souls into red space and allowing her body to dissolve into the LCL biomaterial from which the FAR would later evolve.

:rei_hissyfit: :scanners_head: :yui_grin:
Talk about a serious mind fuck if this where true.
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Postby carla » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:09 am

Tycho wrote:Fuyutsuki is there to make sure no one destroys humanity


...except when they do. he may have wanted humanity to survive, but he certainly didn't take any action toward making sure it did. he was helping gendo subvert SEELE, but he wasn't even with gendo when he went to set up 3I; he just went along in blind faith that gendo/yui really would let humanity continue on.

i have to agree with azathoth on this one. it certainly seems like he gave up his initial "let's bring SEELE down from the inside" agenda by the time 2015 rolled around.


SSD wrote:Kaji cross-dresses and hits on Shinji as a way to teach him about dealing with girls--though Misato hits Kaji and calls him a pervert for wearing her clothes. >_>


OH GOD. BRAIN BLEACH PLEASE. CAN'T UNSEE. :scared: see, i knew there was a reason why i don't play video games...


Tycho wrote:I'm sure he found Yui hot, and got enticed by her intellect. But she was a child to him.


i'm thinking most people will disagree with this. :think: i do agree, however, that the reason why he hated gendo was not necessarily because gendo stole yui from him, but because he thought gendo was just using her. he said as much in episode 21 and it didn't really strike me as a lie.
Last edited by carla on Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby AyrYntake » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:28 am

NemZ wrote:Time-traveling Rei wrote the SDSS as some sort of diary, then fixed her pallet-swap complexion somehow so that she actually ends up being Yui, and thus is able to insure that this whole time loop occurs. Yui/01 travels out into space and backwards in time so that she can insure that Adam and Lilith both arrive on Earth, takes Lilith's spear in mid flight, then goes back even further and kills herself on a remote world in the very distant past, releasing souls into red space and allowing her body to dissolve into the LCL biomaterial from which the FAR would later evolve.

Ouroboros.
In which case
SPOILER: Show
*cough*sequel theory*cough*
really, REALLY works. SO well. Wow.

carla wrote:...except when they do. he may have wanted humanity to survive, but he certainly didn't take any action toward making sure it did. he was helping gendo subvert SEELE, but he wasn't even with gendo when he went to set up 3I; he just went along in blind faith that gendo/yui really would let humanity continue on.

i have to agree with azathoth on this one. it certainly seems like he gave up his initial "let's bring SEELE down from the inside" agenda by the time 2015 rolled around.

It wouldn't take a genius to figure out that taking SEELE down from the inside would be well nigh impossible with just the two of Gendo and Fuyutsuki working together by 2015. Besides, if Gendo had no motive NOT to let humanity continue in its current state, why would he suddenly change his mind halfway through Instrumentality? He was the only guy in the series so single-mindedly passionate about his one and only that he'd lie, steal and kill to achieve it. What's there not to trust? :shrug:
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:00 pm

Why was I incorrectly attributed? I was talking about the Eva2 game, not Fuyutsuki and Gendo being DEEP. >_>

The previous page is where my thoughts on the matter of Fuyutsuki are (he and Yui made the best of a shitty situation).

By the way, NemZ, your post was AWESOME. :bow:
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Postby carla » Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:24 pm

^ sorryyyy!, the stupid thing didn't copy right. i meant to quote the whole Kaji crossdressing thing. :sweatdrop: i'll edit...


@ayryntake-- it's not about gendo himself, or his motives, or what would've happened if things had gone according to gendo's plan. i have my own views about gendo but that's probably for another thread.

in this case i was merely stating that trusting a person who's generally untrustworthy (you said it yourself, the man lied, stole, killed...) with something as big as the fate of the world seems like a very bad decision. fuyutsuki had a bad impression of gendo initially, and the man was a manipulator, as fuyutsuki probably knew more than anyone in the series. there never was a reason for him to trust gendo to begin with, or at least we never saw any, other than "yui said he was a nice guy."

if it's just me that might be hurt, fine; if he double-crosses me i just die, the world goes on as it is. if the whole of humanity is at stake, though, i'd rather be skeptical of the shady dude than end up the fool in a permanent pool of tang.
bittersweet ending: episode 24. the angels are gone and mankind is safe... but tokyo-3 has been ruined; Kaji is dead; toji is a cripple; kensuke, hikari, and their families have moved away, taking pen-pen with them; Asuka is catatonic; ritsuko is in prison; Misato is a nervous wreck; Rei is "the third one"; and Shinji is utterly broken psychologically after having to kill the only person who has offered him unconditional love in the course of the whole series. come the movie? don't worry! it gets worse! ~from the source of all wisdom in the world.

kNET | GAW | my graphics | my fanfics | re-deconstruct: the EVA rebuild fanlisting


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