NGE Ep.24 Script First and Second Drafts

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Postby Synapsid » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:53 am

LiLi wrote:Link:
http://the-liliquarium.livejournal.com/7611.html

Further translated excerpts from the interview will also go there.
...I like Anno's interviews ...I might be saying that only because I liked what he said though :shinji_blush:

:nod: It does...
I’m not sure but a way it almost seems to imply that like with Rei Kaworu wasn’t the only or full Tabby, of course he was Wanko-kun’s Tabby. :shinji_boohoo: I wonder Shin-chan might not have been happier if the “underworld” created during instrumentality would have been full of Kaworu’s.
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Postby Magami no D00M » Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:54 pm

I-It's finds such as these that keep me glued to this place forever (despite my lolin inactivity here), there's just some eternal pull when it comes to Evangelion info, especially the obscure shit.
Another thanks to Lili for originally posting the drafts and interviews. =)
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Postby LiLi » Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:55 am

Magami no D00M wrote:I-It's finds such as these that keep me glued to this place forever (despite my lolin inactivity here), there's just some eternal pull when it comes to Evangelion info, especially the obscure shit.
Another thanks to Lili for originally posting the drafts and interviews. =)



You're very welcome. ^_^

I was surprised to find out so many years after I first saw the series that these drafts existed/had been published and yet were not known to the Western Fandom at large... It seemed a pity not to share and I'm glad some people found them of interest.

Thanks/Credits for scanning the Anno interviews from the JUNE book go to Ilari though... ^_^
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Postby Synapsid » Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:12 am

It was definitely a surprise to me as well; it did seem like there was a lot of subtext around the two, especially in the manga and spin offs but I wouldn’t have known that they actually wrote the Tabby/Puppy in such a direct manner, or that they spent that much time planning on how Kaworu was to interact with Shin-chan. Not that learning all of that (and how certain inherent elements of Shinji are allowed to surface into the open) didn’t make me very happy. (the interviews certainly weren’t unwelcome either) I’m glad we were given these, I really think it’s an amazing find not just because the story and the look we get at the characters but also because the look we get at the creators intentions.

Uh and if it means anything, it does look like fanwork(Lady MacbethShin in this example) based on the scripts is around, but in the past I hadn't recognised it.
Last edited by Synapsid on Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby LiLi » Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:10 am

Synapsid wrote:Uh and if it means anything, it does look like fanwork(Lady MacbethShin in this example) based on the scripts, but in the past I hadn't recognised it.


That was an interesting find indeed.
I do think the Lady Macbeth scene might have helped in driving home how much killing Kaworu traumatized Shinji... in this sense, it's a pity it got scrapped.

As for the interview to Anno, I find it interesting that it appears to shoot down the very notion Kaworu might be ANYTHING BUT male, as it would defeat his purpose/role in the story (more obviously so in Draft 1 IMHO, alas...)

The explanation rather makes sense too, so I don't think Anno was trollin' there.
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Postby Synapsid » Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:13 pm

LiLi wrote:
That was an interesting find indeed.
I do think the Lady Macbeth scene might have helped in driving home how much killing Kaworu traumatized Shinji... in this sense, it's a pity it got scrapped.
Thank you, I'm not sure but from the sound of these scripts (and the elongated takes they were forced to use in the show since 22) a lack of funds seems to have played a role alongside the disapproval of the network/producers in preventing some of the scenes, even the less controversial parts like Lady Macbethji would have taken up more money than just having Shinji remain stationary and cry to Misato.


As for the interview to Anno, I find it interesting that it appears to shoot down the very notion Kaworu might be ANYTHING BUT male, as it would defeat his purpose/role in the story (more obviously so in Draft 1 IMHO, alas...)

The explanation rather makes sense too, so I don't think Anno was trollin' there.
I guess it does, as I noted before there had been rumors that Kaworu's initial concept was female It might have been used to argue against the yaoi part of their relation but I really just thought that the idea of them being a homosexual couple regardless of gender was interesting is completely dead now, I suppose the Adam talk and existence of Tabby-chan might have made it seem plausible to people. Also since Tabby-kun was only around late in the show it might be easier for the fans to think of him as the girl rather than Shin-chan, of course that's contrary to their dynamics in the show,(Although it does look like Kaworu in script2 and the show does have an element of maternal behavior towards Shinji).
I guess trolling might be a bad word for their intentions but having the male protagonist act out a princess role with her his white knight after having avoided relations with all the female characters was certanly meant to go against what the viewers wanted to see.
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Genderbending is an important part of any fandom and must be taken very seriously. ZapalacX
If you ever say that name again, I will hunt you down and neuter you with a spork. Sailor Star Dust *cue Shinji's bloodcurling girly scream* LiLi
leave my innocent Shinjiko thread alone! Reichu Asuka would be the one going "SURPRISE BUTTSEKS, BAKA!!!!" while of course in appropriate dress and, *cough, gulp, snort*, with a certain strapped on accessory THE Hal E. Burton 9000

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:42 pm

I apologize if something like this was discussed already. Awhile ago Reichu and I were talking about the script process in a PM:

Reichu wrote:#1 - Akio Satsukawa's treatment ()
#2 - Anno's do-over (credited to Satsukawa and Anno, published in Evangelion Original III)
#3 - Storyboards (絵コンテ, published in Storyboard Collection... 5, I think)
#4 - ??? (refined script handed out to staff and seiyuu?)
#5 - The #24 script published on the DVDs (modified from #4??).

I have no idea if Japanese has different ways of referring to the draft and finalized script-thingies. According to Evangelion Original, the draft is 脚本, and Wikipedia treats 脚本 as equivalent to the English term "script" for the performing arts. So... yeah.


Drafts 1 and 2 of episode 24 were Akio Satsukawa's treatment, yes? (Just like the rest of the drafts of the series?)

Wouldn't that help explain on why certain things are absent from those drafts, such as Lilith? Espeically considering the Second Angel isn't mentioned anywhere in-series until the "big revelation" while the First Angel Adam is. And there is the idea that Anno intentionally kept the identity of Lilith a secret, which is why Satsukawa and the other staff wouldn't know until much later on in the process.
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Postby Ornette » Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:28 pm

View Original PostLiLi wrote:These scripts are credited, according to the source below, to Satsukawa Akio (薩川昭夫)

Yeah.

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Postby Monk Ed » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:15 am

Man, where did my day go? Reading all this stuff...

While it was enjoyable to take a peek into the realm of what-if, I prefer the finished product. These versions, while nice in their own way, felt very cliche. Come on, a moonlit river swim?! What's surprising is that these scripts are like every stereotype and fanfic what-if of ep24 I'd seen -- which means that fans are very perceptive, to be able to reverse-engineer the 'original' story like that.

The main reason I wanted to peek into these drafts, though, was to see if I could glean any information about the usual background mysteries: Angel cores, Seele's plan... But it looks like both of these drafts are from way too early in the process (No Lilith?!), and not even done by Anno himself apparently. So almost nothing in them is anything I can really learn from regarding CI-level information. :shinji_boohoo:
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Postby Lucretius » Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:30 am

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote: And there is the idea that Anno intentionally kept the identity of Lilith a secret, which is why Satsukawa and the other staff wouldn't know until much later on in the process.


:rei_meh:

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Postby esselfortium » Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:18 pm

Lucretius wrote:
Sailor Star Dust wrote:And there is the idea that Anno intentionally kept the identity of Lilith a secret, which is why Satsukawa and the other staff wouldn't know until much later on in the process.


:rei_meh:


Yeah... SSD, I have some serious difficulty believing that Anno would allow one of his subordinates to write an entire episode script that's supposed to very much involve the Terminal Dogma giant without telling him what the giant is supposed to be. Because it really makes no sense for him to have allowed someone to spend the time to write a script if he knew all along that it wasn't going to be usable for his planned story.

If he wanted to put it in the show but keep it a secret from the rest of the staff for as long as he could, he would have written it himself in the first place instead of having someone else write something totally wrong.

Occam's Razor applies here: The simplest and most straightforward explanation, by far, is that Anno and company did not have their entire story planned out from the beginning like some claim, and they had not yet decided that Lilith was the identity of the Terminal Dogma giant until episode 24's scripts were being revised and rewritten.

Of course, Essel's Corollary also applies to Occam's Razor here, as it seemingly always does.

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Postby Legendary » Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:30 pm

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:Yeah... SSD, I have some serious difficulty believing that Anno would allow one of his subordinates to write an entire episode script that's supposed to very much involve the Terminal Dogma giant without telling him what the giant is supposed to be.

It wouldn't take that much of a rewrite at the end. Kaworu could just say "Even though it isn't Adam, the urge to return is still uncontrollable and the results will be disastrous," or something similar.

Then, of course, there's the fact that there's at least one proposal floating out there (Yamashita's) that doesn't seem to have been made with Anno's approval at all. Lots of people probably wrote scripts and script proposals, and people presumably knew episode 24 was going to involve the angelic boy, so Satsukawa made one without knowing the reveal and Anno would just make edits later.

It's not a big deal, and it doesn't require a huge logical leap.

I personally don't think that Lilith's identity was known until AT LEAST 16, but I do think that Anno had most of the ideas down for the story around 23.

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:37 pm

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:Occam's Razor applies here: The simplest and most straightforward explanation, by far, is that Anno and company did not have their entire story planned out from the beginning like some claim, and they had not yet decided that Lilith was the identity of the Terminal Dogma giant until episode 24's scripts were being revised and rewritten.

So you're saying that it's more likely that they added the long awaited Second Angel (Missing since episode #01) at the very last minute and as the production was entering a cul se sac, when as Legendary points out a throwaway line would just as easily have done the job narratively? I'll also note that one of the major threads in the episode is the construction of parallels between Rei and Kaworu, leading to the naming of Lilith right alongside Rei's use of an AT-Field. Again, why bother going to so much trouble at the last minute, and why would it all tie into the missing Angel number?

The first draft has Kaworu dying but the second doesn't even mention this. Moreover, the first draft has material about Asuka which was ultimately used in episode 22. In other words, these drafts are so early that material eventually placed in different episodes is being "shunted about" among episodes, and in and out of this one. The Lilith material may not have been present in the #24 draft, but might well have been shunted into #24 just as the Asuka material was shunted out.

EDIT: Fixed formatting.
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Postby esselfortium » Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:52 am

Okay, I'm willing to accept that. There's a lot of details we don't know about the show's writing and development.

I'm mainly just unwilling to believe that the Adam/Lilith switch and reveal was intentionally kept as some sort of closely-guarded secret of Anno's during the show's development like SSD suggests. To anyone other than Kaworu or someone who's read hundreds of pages of EGF threads, it's "Oh. That one big monster I didn't know much of anything about is actually another big monster I still don't know anything about."

There'd be no sense in intentionally trying to keep it a secret from the production staff. The explanation that some things were changed and made up as they went along is far more believable than the supposition that the entire storyline and mythology was perfectly planned out from the beginning and Anno intentionally wasted his staff's time working on red herrings to throw to the people who were still analyzing his show 15 years after its release.

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Postby Legendary » Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:47 pm

Like I said, I don't think this was a production secret from Episode 1. Episode 15 AT THE EARLIEST is the only thing that makes sense.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:43 pm

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:I'm mainly just unwilling to believe that the Adam/Lilith switch and reveal was intentionally kept as some sort of closely-guarded secret of Anno's during the show's development like SSD suggests.


To clarify, I meant that the possibility of Lilith being Lilith was a secret from the staff during production, not necessarily that it was. Unless Japanese fans have access to certain information or materials that Western fans don't, we have no way of knowing. At the very least, Lilith probably was a production secret somewhere along Episode 15 as Legendary mentioned.

And hell, speaking of draft changes, according to Reichu in another thread, one of the drafts of Episode 15 (I'm guessing it was a Satsukawa Akio draft) had Misato thinking Lilith/Adam was Eva-03 upon her first seeing it. :smirk:
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:42 pm

Lilith and Adam production tangent has been split accordingly into here.

If people have anything else related to the drafts or episode 24(') production, discussion is more than welcome to continue here provided it's on-topic.
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Postby Lament » Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:08 pm

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:Wouldn't that help explain on why certain things are absent from those drafts, such as Lilith? Espeically considering the Second Angel isn't mentioned anywhere in-series until the "big revelation" while the First Angel Adam is. And there is the idea that Anno intentionally kept the identity of Lilith a secret, which is why Satsukawa and the other staff wouldn't know until much later on in the process.


Hmm. Have you guys translated the drafts further than LiLi? As far as I know, she didn't fully translate them. But if someone has translated the drafts fully, can I see the translations? Because what I remember from long ago when I last time checked this thread, the translations were incomplete.

I think the Anno interview that LiLi was going to translate would be helpful in determining how near to the finished episode drafts actually were. Last time I checked, the interview wasn't translated. If that has changed, please inform me.

Also LiLi, do you want to translate them all or is it ok if someone else translates them? Because now I'm intrigued by this all over again :smirk:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT11/29/2010: gwern & NemZ: Pay attention. LiLi's the one who has translated the summaries of the drafts. They remain hosted by her. She didn't give the permission to put her translations to the wiki. These aren't the full translations. If you wanna translate them all over again word by word, go ahead. The website is provided for raws. Also, LiLi has the book in which includes the Anno interview that I was talking about. LiLi literally sits in top of it and if she doesn't share, we don't get it, raw or translated. Good luck trying to find the book, it's rather difficult. So better start acting nicely to her if you want it instead making demands and being arrogant. She indeed left and why wouldn't she? After all several members turned on her and argued and went off topic, when she provided information and translations. The thread was wrecked, it wasn't a small matter. It required mod to split the thread to two other threads before this one was salvaged. And by then, LiLi was already missing. You can only blame yourselves.

Your useless snark is useless and I won't up this thread for you.
Last edited by Lament on Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby BleedingCandy » Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:37 am

I'd like to show my (biggest)gratitude to Lili-san, Synapsid-san, Lament-san, Ilari-san for the scan and other people that have been contributing in this thread. ^_^

I'm not done reading all of it again, but *cough*as a fairly new K/S fan *cough* this is really an amazing find. It gives, at least, a little bit more enlightenment (and/or clarity if I may say?) regarding their intial intention for e24 including Kaworu's character (he's so vague and hard to portray, usually I just cling to Kaworu in manga version/EMK before I read these drafts), and his relationship toward Shinji, etc, etc. Pay attention that I don't consider these as the 'lost pieces of canons'. :P
I thought ep 24 could've been much better because the way it played seems to be rushed which gives so much room to debate over.

How interesting that some part of the drafts has been 'recycled' in manga (in a different condition and situation) and spin-off's game.

.. and Anno-san to have a feeling (fanboy!?) with Kaworu is pretty much unexpected. ^^;

Again, thank you thank you thank you very much for sharing this with us, I'm looking forward for further translation. ^_^
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Postby gwern » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:15 am

View Original PostLament wrote:Also LiLi, do you want to translate them all or is it ok if someone else translates them? Because now I'm intrigued by this all over again :smirk:


I think by this point, >year later, any 'priority' or 'ownership' LiLi has is gone. Feel free, sheesh!


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