What do you watch with? (Dub or Sub?)

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Postby Oz » Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:40 pm

^That's so true. That might be a problem for people who are native English speakers because they don't have to read subtitles when they watch films. For example, Finns scan subtitles perfectly without losing vital bits of visual information because most of the films shown on TV (and in theaters) are subtitled. We "grow up" with the subtitles so when you are used to reading them there is really no problem with that.
Last edited by Oz on Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Natsuka_Chie » Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:41 pm

I've been trained in the art of subs (the only dubbed movies around here are the Disney, Pixar, etc. movies) since I started to read, which was when I was 5 or so. After all these years, within the time a sub is being displayed on-screen, it's not hard to read it twice, while paying attention to the whole background.

If you don't focus on the subs too much, you'll be able to read them and not miss the action.

I only have one school friend that prefers the english dub to Japanese dub , and that's because he "finds the Japanese language too weird".
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Postby ran1 » Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:51 pm

Well compared to the structure of romance languages, I might agree with your friend.

But otherwise, I'm subs only with the exception of Black Lagoon

That might be a problem for people who are native English speakers because they don't have to read subtitles when they watch films.


Major problem for many English speakers right here, confirmed. My cinephile friends rarely see foreign films exactly for this reason. Also the reason why Japanese, French, Italian movies rarely make good money over here. They may be awesome, popular masterpieces EVERYWHERE else but Hollywood breeds Americans to be paranoid about anything disrupting their visuals.

There were complaints when I went to go see the opening night of Inglorious Basterds about the subtitles.

When I left the theater, some 14 year old girl I overheard said:

"The movie was cool, but I wish they did more parts in English."

LOLWUT
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Postby The Eva Monkey » Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:54 pm

View Original PostNatsuka_Chie wrote:I only have one school friend that prefers the english dub to Japanese dub , and that's because he "finds the Japanese language too weird".

Inferring that English is normal? English... the mongrel of languages. It's like an incestuous orgy of words and grammar from like six languages.

Your friend is dumb. So say we all.
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Postby ran1 » Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:56 pm

... But there are similarities between Romance languages and English. Portuguese is the sexiest out of all of them by far, but it still holds some similarities to down syndrome cousin English, as opposed to lolwtf Japanese.
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Postby Natsuka_Chie » Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:00 pm

View Original PostThe Eva Monkey wrote:Inferring that English is normal? English... the mongrel of languages. It's like an incestuous orgy of words and grammar from like six languages.

Your friend is dumb. So say we all.


I agree, he's a bit mad.

But the portuguese dub is awful in anime (and we only have those major ones, like Naruto..for the kids), and the Japanese is "weird" so what's left is english. And he likes to hear it and understand it.
Asuka's not a bitch, she just denies her innocence in a bitchy way.
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Postby Oz » Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:47 pm

English is fairly normal because it is relatively closely related to so many languages around the world. Most of the popular languages are hardly "weird" because they have a lot of things in common in the end. But then there are cases like Finnish which is a truly lonely and "weird" language. Hungarian might be a distant relative to Finnish, but that's it.

... and at this point I realise how terribly offtopic this discussion is. Shall we get a split or something like that?
"I'd really like to have as much money as you have, Oz" - robersora
"No you wouldn't. Oz's secret is he goes without food to buy that stuff. He hasn't eaten in years." - Brikhaus

"Often I get the feeling that deep down, your little girl is struggling with your embrace of filmfaggotry and your loldeep fixations, and the conflict that arises from such a contradiction is embodied pretty well in Kureha's character. But obviously it's not any sort of internal conflict that makes the analogy work. It's the pigtails." - Merridian
"Oh, Oz, I fear I'm losing my filmfag to the depths of Japanese pop. If only there were more films with Japanese girls in glow-in-the-dark costumes you'd be the David Bordwell of that genre." - Jimbo
"Oz, I think we need to stage an intervention and force you to watch some movies that aren't made in Japan." - Trajan

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Postby Dark doom » Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:24 pm

View Original Postran1 wrote:Certain companies put in a lot of effort into dubbing in a show that is already "westernized" to some extent. Bebop and Black Lagoon, the latter of which being IMO the greatest dub ever, both are examples of shows that have a very "American" almost classic noir feel to them, so dubbing is not as much as a problem...

A show stepped in Japanese culture, like Kenshin, or a comedy that relies on Japanese humor is anathema to dubbing.

FUCKING A!
Revy's dub is pure awsome, while Shenuha's is just like WUT!

And English is the mongral of the language world?
I think not.
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Postby The Eva Monkey » Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:35 pm

View Original PostDark doom wrote:And English is the mongral of the language world?
I think not.

Watch this, and try to deny that you have been owned:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSBhC3k2XOo
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Postby Zenithfleet » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:48 am

Minor newbie thread necromancy going on here - just want to throw in my (somewhat more than) two cents...

Having just read this whole thread, it feels as though dubbies and subbies are shouting at each other from different continents, with a few bridging the divide and wondering what all the fuss is about.

I'm in the same boat as a few other people: I'd normally always watch anime subbed--but I saw Eva dubbed first. Plus, it was the first anime I ever saw (not counting Pokemon-type stuff). And I saw it so many, many times on my beloved VHS recordings that I know the whole dub script by heart. :wink:

I know some people will say 'you poor brainwashed thing you', but those ARE the characters to me now, and probably always will be.

Objectively, though, I totally agree that subbed is superior. I've recently (finally) watched the whole series subbed, and I definitely picked up places where the dub translation had been so inaccurate as to obscure the meaning. Rei's line about 'the me inside the Eva?' during the Armisael fight and Ritsuko's Reiquarium speech are the two that spring to mind. The VA work in general is, as many have noted, far more professional. Also Megumi Ogata's voice is teh sexy.

On the other hand, I can understand why some people simply prefer to hear things in their own language. Your brain just doesn't have to work so hard. And it's at first, it can be hard to pick up emotional content from a foreign language. If you're not used to it, it really can sound like a lot of monotone gibberish until you adjust. (Still, the only other anime I'd ever watch dubbed is Porco Rosso. Seriously, try it.)

One problem with subtitles that nobody seems to have mentioned before now: if you're too fast at reading them, you have to wait for the actor to finish their spoken lines. I find it especially annoying in comedy scenes, because you preview all the punchlines, which throws the timing of the humour off.

(Speaking of humour: dub dislikers, indulge me for a moment and check out the scene in the Jet Alone episode when Misato is angrily kicking the locker. The subbed script simply says "I am so pissed!" The dub is a bit more creative. :lol: )

I'm not entirely convinced on the 'anime helps you learn Japanese' front either. I saw all of Eva, Escaflowne, Bebop, Generator Gawl, Giant Robo, tons of Ghibli films, Blue Sub Six, Nadia (yes, even the island episodes) and a probably unhealthy number of naughtier things while in Japan on a student exchange. Sometimes it helped, but you tend to pick up lots of dramatic phrases you really should avoid in casual conversation. ("Hey, did you remember to buy me lunch today?" "KISAMA!! NANI O IU?! ONORE!!") I once got myself into strife with my host father when I answered him in a Kaji-like fashion upon his request for help waxing his car. :whistle:

In fact, I'm kinda frustrated that I like the Eva dub so much, because it makes it really hard to watch the DC episodes. I don't know what's worse, the replacement VAs or the fact that in some places they had the old VAs redo all their original lines, to the exact same script, rather than just reuse the old audio. Result: their dialogue is identical to the OA episodes, but the delivery is just... slightly... off. (Though in some places it seems they did reuse the original audio, e.g. Naoko vs Rei I scene. Maybe I should make a list.)

And let's just forget about the EoE dub, shall we? (I saw that subbed first, see. Lucky escape, huh? ^_^
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Postby LeCapEtan » Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:05 pm

I watch the English Dub with English subtitles for 2 reasons.

A) It allows me (as a non-Japanese speaker) to narrow down what Anno is trying to say through cross-referencing.

B) Asuka's Japanese voice actress is AWFUL at doing the German. It's so bad it hurts. Meanwhile, the English actress is BRILLIANT. Her German is beautiful and I love when she inserts swears and such in certain situations. It makes Asuka's character so much better imo.
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Postby Corb » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:28 pm

View Original PostLeCapEtan wrote:I watch the English Dub with English subtitles for 2 reasons.

A) It allows me (as a non-Japanese speaker) to narrow down what Anno is trying to say through cross-referencing.


How can you say that when Anno (to my knowledge) wasn't involved in the dubbing process? You're not hearing what Anno meant for you to hear, you're hearing what ADV (or whoever else) thinks Anno meant for you to hear.

Like a gunshot.

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Postby Fazmotron » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:36 pm

That's why he said he watches with the subtitles, as they are considered the closer translation.
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Postby Corb » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:47 pm

View Original PostFazmotron wrote:That's why he said he watches with the subtitles, as they are considered the closer translation.


I guess that makes sense if you're reading a book. Actual dialog, however.. there's so many tiny nuances potentially burried in a line depending on how it is delivered, based on tones, inflections, etc. And we all know how thorough Anno was about directing the original dub. And do you really need to know Japanese to pick up on subtleties in voice acting?

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Postby LeCapEtan » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:09 pm

View Original PostCorb wrote:I guess that makes sense if you're reading a book. Actual dialog, however.. there's so many tiny nuances potentially burried in a line depending on how it is delivered, based on tones, inflections, etc. And we all know how thorough Anno was about directing the original dub. And do you really need to know Japanese to pick up on subtleties in voice acting?


I've watched both. And I agree that how the line is delivered is just as important as what they are saying.

Again though, tone, intonation, etc can all be imitated by the English voice actors (and they generally are the same) because they aren't "language" specific. WHAT they are saying IS language specific, so I generally prefer to watch the English Dub w/ Subtitles when I re watch the series, though I've watched the original a couple times.

Honestly though, the thing that keeps bringing me back to the Dub is actually Asuka's voice actress. While she has kind of an obnoxious voice, it fits (imo), and the incorporation of German words is BRILLIANT. On the other hand, the Japanese actress did a terrible job with the few German words she had to say throughout the series (I'm not trying to be mean, but it's bad). The little Arche's and shista's, etc make her character so much more interesting.
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Postby Dr. Nick » Sat Jul 31, 2010 9:20 am

View Original PostThe Eva Monkey wrote:English... the mongrel of languages. It's like an incestuous orgy of words and grammar from like six languages.


As far as I know, all natural languages have different kinds of horrifying drawbacks that, to a varying degree, ruin the second language acquisition experience. English is non-phonetic, has a superfluous article system and lacks gender-neutral pronouns. Those are rather small drawbacks compared to linguistic terrors of grammatical gender, grammatical agreement and moonscripts, and thus English is a rather easy language to learn.

View Original PostOz wrote:For example, Finns scan subtitles perfectly without losing vital bits of visual information because most of the films shown on TV (and in theaters) are subtitled.


While it's true that in a non-dubbing culture people learn to read subtitles effortlessly, it's really up to the translator to maintain the "vital bits" in the translated text. Your average Finnish TV subtitles use what I call "grandma settings", ie. they're timed so that even most old people can reasonably read them. Combine this with our rudimentary subtitling technology and language that adds space-consuming suffixes everywhere, and you have a veritable subtitler's nightmare. The editing job is sometimes sheer butchery where all non-essential information is tossed aside. For example, here's a fun little brain teaser for you, Oz. (Other non-native English speakers can try this out as well!)

SPOILER: Show
Translate the following sentence into your native language and make sure the translation is no longer than 36 characters (spaces included):

In the 1880s, in which famous London street did the Rothschilds own four mansions at the same time?


I don't suggest you should post your solutions to the problem in this thread because this is a slight tangent to begin with, but try thinking about how you would handle it.

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Postby Oz » Sat Jul 31, 2010 9:42 am

I'm aware of that, Dr. Nick, because I've spent some time working on my own translations (and I have encountered problems like that a lot in a short time) and I've read a lot about translating in general (going to study it at a university in future). I excluded that part because I felt it was too tangential for the topic.
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"No you wouldn't. Oz's secret is he goes without food to buy that stuff. He hasn't eaten in years." - Brikhaus

"Often I get the feeling that deep down, your little girl is struggling with your embrace of filmfaggotry and your loldeep fixations, and the conflict that arises from such a contradiction is embodied pretty well in Kureha's character. But obviously it's not any sort of internal conflict that makes the analogy work. It's the pigtails." - Merridian
"Oh, Oz, I fear I'm losing my filmfag to the depths of Japanese pop. If only there were more films with Japanese girls in glow-in-the-dark costumes you'd be the David Bordwell of that genre." - Jimbo
"Oz, I think we need to stage an intervention and force you to watch some movies that aren't made in Japan." - Trajan

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Postby NemZ » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:21 pm

As far as the "English is an incestuous orgy of words and grammar" thing goes... yeah, it totally is. But is that a bad thing? It seems to me the ease English shows in adapting other languages to fit its needs is exactly why it has become the world's common tongue and is a large part of what makes the language so expressive. Compare that to Japanese, which needed a second language just to make up new words on their own and then a third to handle all the weirdness brought to their shores by foreign pig-dogs.

Oh, and here's an excellent series on the development of English by the history channel: The Adventure of English
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Postby Oz » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:48 pm

@Nemz: Language =/= writing system + you are underestimating other languages' ability to develop. The major reasons for the success of the English language lie elsewhere since every single language is under constant development - forced especially by other languages.
"I'd really like to have as much money as you have, Oz" - robersora
"No you wouldn't. Oz's secret is he goes without food to buy that stuff. He hasn't eaten in years." - Brikhaus

"Often I get the feeling that deep down, your little girl is struggling with your embrace of filmfaggotry and your loldeep fixations, and the conflict that arises from such a contradiction is embodied pretty well in Kureha's character. But obviously it's not any sort of internal conflict that makes the analogy work. It's the pigtails." - Merridian
"Oh, Oz, I fear I'm losing my filmfag to the depths of Japanese pop. If only there were more films with Japanese girls in glow-in-the-dark costumes you'd be the David Bordwell of that genre." - Jimbo
"Oz, I think we need to stage an intervention and force you to watch some movies that aren't made in Japan." - Trajan

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Postby NemZ » Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:15 pm

Well of course it's also economic/political, but what isn't? Besides, these other factors are precisely the kind of changing conditions that created the language in the first place.
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