Split: Rebuild 2.0 pace/plot complaints

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The final installment is scheduled to debut in Japan on January 23, 2021.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:32 pm

View Original PostZeruel wrote:So I'm getting from the basic jest of this thread is nobody liked 2.0???
This, as the title suggests, is the "Haters gonna hate" thread. Overall 2.0 has had a widely varying reception across the fandom.
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Postby Zeruel » Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:37 pm

Yeah I know, everyone of us "hardcore" fans consider Eva our baby and god forbid if it changes.
Why in God's name would I wanna keep writing about characters whose central preoccupation are weed and dick and fart jokes? I mean, ya gotta grow man. Don't you ever want anything more for yourself? I know this poor hapless son of a bitch does. I look into his sorry doe eyes and I just, I see a man crying out. He's crying out, "When Lord? When the fuck can your servant ditch this foul-mouthed little chucklehead to whom I am a constant victim of his folly, so much so that it prevents him from ever getting to kiss a girl! Fuck! When, Lord when? WHENS GONNA BE MY TIME?

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Postby LiLi » Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:46 pm

In my understanding, Rebuild was presented as a series of movies - a quadrilogy meant to compose a whole project if taken in its entirety - from the get go.

So, I wouldn't say each movie necessarily has to be able to stand on its own - no more than, say, EoE (although, I know people who were able to enjoy 2.0 while not having seen 1.0 nor NGE).

I think that on these premises, the Rebuild project would probably 'fail' if it weren't able to stand on its own without necessarily relying on previous knowledge from NGE - I have no problem with considering the separate movies as "episodes" in a "theatrical-screen series" in an AU continuity, so to speak.

I personally felt the movies that came out so far (esp.2.0) probably needed to be longer to allow for more development. On the other hand, I guess the crazy-fast-pacing of 2.0 might have its merits, storytelling-wise...

@Slutsuit: At first, it annoyed me mightily. But then, I started thinking that the slutsuit was just one of the many references/homages 2.0 seems to pay to the old After The End drama CD... so taking the references as a whole,

1) amused me

2) I'm trying to figure out where Anno is going with them (if anywhere at all).
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Postby NemZ » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:05 pm

Neither Return of the King nor Empire Strikes Back had a bait/switch plan; both series played everything straight from start to finish, reinforcing the overall themes within each separate film.

Knowing that a movie is part of an ongoing series makes it acceptable to leave some plot threads dangling at the end but it still requires that each film cover a plot arc... which 2.0 also doesn't do, opting instead for a series of vaguelly connected subplots.

@ATE:

I think you need to make a list and start a new thread, LiLi.
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Postby Legendary » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:09 pm

It's about Shinji's relationship with his father and Rei. That arc is covered completely, from the beginning, when he and his father are in the graveyard together, to the end, where Shinji demands to pilot Eva-01 and goes out to save Rei from death. There are subplots, but there have always been subplots.

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Postby Octahedron » Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:38 pm

I think 2.0 might end up as the weakest of the Rebuild films, as it's in the rather awkward place of being the one that connects Rebuild 1.0 (which follows the original serie's plot almost exactly) and Rebuild 3.0 (which based on 2.0 will be very different from the original serie). Thus we end up with a storyline that attempts to compress the entire action and descent arc into a single film and maintian a loose connection to the original plot despite clearly going off the rails. It also had to introduce new characters and devote screen time to them. No wonder the pasing seems hectic. Hopefully in 3.0 they can write a new plot without having to attempt to make it follow the storyline of the original, and now that all the characters are introduced spend time to develop them.

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Postby SenorSquiid » Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:56 pm

My major quibble so far is just that it's going to be pretty hard to top 2.0. I'm a little worried they might have blown all the awesome on the 2nd film and the last 2 will be a drag.

Evangelion is sort of known for playing it's trump card (budget) too soon and coming in unarmed for the finale.
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Postby Lucretius » Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:01 pm

View Original PostSenorSquiid wrote:My major quibble so far is just that it's going to be pretty hard to top 2.0.


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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:06 pm

Things seem okay in this thread so far, but this is just a headsup for people to keep in mind.

Thanks!
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Postby JoeD80 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:26 pm

Well I loved 2.0, but...Pen-Pen is such a spaz now! Running all this way and that and screaming like a teenage girl when he should be proud and stern like a good hot springs penguin should. In the show he often read the newspaper and stared solemnly into the distance; now he's organizing parties with his aquarium buddies. Sure there was that one episode where he was excited about the hot spring, but that is kind of a second home to him, and he settled down once he was there. This bird never seems to settle down and won't stop screaming in 2.0. Where'd calm Pen-Pen go? Maybe when he starts to pilot Unit-08 he'll settle down a bit...

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Postby IDontWantNoScrub » Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:57 pm

In 19 hours I will be sitting in a theatre watching 2.0. :w00:
THEN I can start bitching and moaning haha. Hopefully I am gonna dig the movie though.

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Postby wonderluster » Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:17 pm

I just cant wait to see if they can top 2.0 I mean like, I think they would totally need something like the harpies..I little less...Evil, and a little more drone-ish
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Postby NemZ » Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:53 pm

View Original PostLegendary wrote:It's about Shinji's relationship with his father and Rei. That arc is covered completely, from the beginning, when he and his father are in the graveyard together, to the end, where Shinji demands to pilot Eva-01 and goes out to save Rei from death. There are subplots, but there have always been subplots.


it's a bit late, but yes, I'll grant you that interpretation works.
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Postby IDontWantNoScrub » Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:49 pm

Well, I didn't have any problems with the pacing, thought it was actually much more enjoyable than 1.0.

As 1.0 was very faithful to the series, some scenes felt like going through the motions while others seemed rushed. Luckily, they changed up 2.0 just enough so that it felt new & fresh, I gave up comparing it to the series very early on.

The plotting was tight (and not overly difficult to follow), action was thrilling, characters felt more human and developed without major setbacks throughout. Would have liked more Kaworu, (I've seen so many promo pics with him) but I guess we'll get our fix in 3.0 Q. I also wonder why Asuka wasn't shown again after the battle. Misato made it clear that she survived, but it would have been nice to see her in a hospital bed or sth. Oh well, Pirate Asuka in next film so I'll live.

Almost everybody left when the credits rolled so they missed Kaworu saving the day and the 3.0 trailer. Although it seemed like noone in the theatre had any pre-existing Eva knowledge to begin with so they must have all had a "wtf" expression on their faces anyway.
Going one more time this Sunday so I will be able to survive until 2.22 BD. :)

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:56 pm

I'm glad you enjoyed it. Did you see any other Eva fans there or anime fans in general and get their thoughts on it? (Liked, disliked, didn't care either way?)
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Postby IDontWantNoScrub » Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:03 pm

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:I'm glad you enjoyed it. Did you see any other Eva fans there or anime fans in general and get their thoughts on it? (Liked, disliked, didn't care either way?)


The room was half empty and it sure didn't look like any of the people there had even a clue about anything Eva. I didn't get to talk to anyone, because as I said almost everybody took off once the credits started rolling. I'm not surprised though, there's barely a market for anime here (Anime film festival here means that some theatres simply screen selected films for a week, it's nothing like in Japan, the US or even larger European countries).

PS. The beginning of 2.0 freaked me out, for a minute there I was thinking that by some miracle it had been dubbed in English haha.

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Postby Heromaster111 » Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:11 pm

View Original PostIDontWantNoScrub wrote:PS. The beginning of 2.0 freaked me out, for a minute there I was thinking that by some miracle it had been dubbed in English haha.


You think for a second "hey this is pretty good for a Japanese film" then Kaji starts speaking english....

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Postby IDontWantNoScrub » Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:24 pm

View Original PostHeromaster111 wrote:You think for a second "hey this is pretty good for a Japanese film" then Kaji starts speaking english....


:lol:

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Postby Azathoth » Sat Apr 10, 2010 6:39 pm

View Original PostHeromaster111 wrote:You think for a second "hey this is pretty good for a Japanese film" then Kaji starts speaking english....


Haters gonna hate. Kaji's just too awesome for coherent pronunciation.

To get back on topic: I still think, after watching it three or four times now, that basing Rebuild so directly on the events of the series, while partitioning it based on the progression of Shinji's relationship with Rei was a colossal mistake. It's forcing a structure onto the NGE storyline that doesn't exist, changing things around in an effort to try and make it work, even combining the plot-important aspects of Arael and Armisael into other Angels, all so that they can end the second movie with another WAFFy Shinji/Rei moment. (At least, that's the way the scene comes off to me; I feel like it should be intended to be more disturbing and bizarre than anything else. Yet the only way I can interpret the end is as, "oh, look at this beautiful sacrificial young love in the midst of chaos and destruction" while ignoring the fact that the beautiful sacrificial young oedipus complex caused the chaos and destruction in the first place.)

I would have preferred a less direct adaptation of the series if they were going to divide the movies into plot arcs revolving around Shinji's relationships with Rei and Gendou, because that isn't really how the series worked and they wind up collapsing too much important stuff while stretching out too much else.

The thing that really baffles me, though, is how oddly determined the powers that be seem to set up 3.0 as a big "and now for something completely different" part. It's so strange that they would make 1.0 virtually the same as the original series, changing only a few plot points - important changes down the line, to be sure, but at the same time changes that have no immediate effect upon the storyline.

2.0 is some departure from that, slashing out some of the more useless Angels only to replace them with equally useless Angels that cause even less character development, yet it still clings to basically the same plot points as episodes 8-23 (22 and 23 are relocated and their Angels get absorbed into earlier, less cool-looking Angels, but you get the point). The two obvious departures from the original are Mari (who by herself would feel more like the traditional fanfic pilot who shows up and is awesome all over everyone, and doesn't appear to have much immediate effect on the plot other than being utterly weird and completely unexplained into the bargain) and Kaworu (whose earlier introduction is probably the most significant change Rebuild has made, and who actually does do something for the plot, even if it's only getting it out of the corner it just got written into). Around half the major characters besides them are in almost the same state as they were during 20 in NGE:

-Shinji: stuck in Unit 01 tripping balls
-Gendou: blood-soaked and trolling SEELE
-Kaji: watering melons and trolling SEELE
-Misato: horrified/disillusioned about Eva and NERV

The exceptions are:

-Rei: Lilith...basically in the same state she was in during EoE
-Asuka: comatose and useless; same state she was by the beginning of 24
-Touji: +1 leg, but he's absolutely unimportant to Rebuild so it hardly matters
-Ritsuko: just kidding, Ritsuko's not a character anymore, she's a technobabble exposition vehicle

...which doesn't tread a bunch of new ground, really, just gets to the old ground faster.

So, really, I wonder just where they're planning to go with their new ending. The only things different are Kaworu showing up early and a bit more dedicated; Mari being inexplicable; Shinji being even more petulant and stupid than he was in NGE. It hardly fills me with confidence for an ending that feels anything but contrived.

Convince me otherwise?
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Postby SaltyJoe » Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:15 pm

^ Make Kaworu an actual antagonist whose main function is to kick Shinji into the curb and back to reality. Hard. To punish him for the hubris of his "sacrificial young love", which actually mirrors Gendo's own delusional "Get Yui back" plans perfectly. Then, everything would work out (at least in my opinion).
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