Rebuild's canonicity

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Rebuild's canonicity

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Postby UrsusArctos » Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:53 am

What classification does Rebuild come under? I tried placing it in Tier 4 along with the Manga, but it was removed and the page locked from editing. It'd fit with Tier 4, nevertheless: it might give interesting background details on certain characters, but it's otherwise different enough from the series not to be on the same level. (And if Rebuild and the Manga clash on any of the background details, both details will be mentioned as neither has any logical precedence over the other)

"Restart" of the old series or not, I think it'd be wise to settle on Rebuild's canon status before the next movie comes out. What do you say?
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Postby Shiro » Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:52 am

In my opinion, set it as T4 for now. If, however unlikely, Rebuild ends up as part of the original continuity or (sorry for the gray hair, Reichu) provides satisfactory answers, such as the possibility of shedding light on things such as Arka, it may or may not move up.

But for now, as an alternate universe retelling, it's on the same level as the manga, albeit far prettier and more appealing overall.
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Postby UrsusArctos » Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:49 am

Providing answers or being part of the original series isn't the question at all- V considered bringing this into a separate, sixth tier of canon. I really want to know what happens if the Rebuild has a separate backstory from the Manga, as it very well might. If so, do we mention both, or does one have some kind of precedence over the other? I was thinking of the latter initially, now the former.
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Postby Ornette » Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:06 am

Originally, people were talking about Rebuild being a story on its own, its own canon. This would mean it doesn't have a Tier at all. Manga, Sadamoto admits, is based on the anime, but with a different spin. Rebuild, for all we know, could have its underlying backstory changed on us, which would make comparisons between the series and Rebuild shaky at best.

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Postby UrsusArctos » Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:24 am

Point taken. However, we might have backstory for Nerv and Seele in Rebuild that does not appear in the Manga or in other sources. If so, where would we place such information?

Perhaps the more accurate way to rephrase it "Rebuild is considered Tier 4 where neither the Manga nor other publications cover, and a separate continuum otherwise". We have accepted the "Lilin" romanization from Rebuild, after all.
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Postby Reichu » Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:07 am

It will be necessary to give it some Tier, in my opinion. There will be those places of overlap and not necessarily conflict, even if they have a tendency towards being minor items. For example, the "Lilin" spelling. Also, doesn't 1.0 reveal Eva-01 to be Blood Type Blue? This could be reasonably inferred in the original show, but it's never actually stated. Things of this sort.

IMHO, the "same continuity" thing is so weak that it doesn't even warrant our consideration in this matter.
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Postby Ornette » Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:07 am

UrsusArctos wrote:Perhaps the more accurate way to rephrase it "Rebuild is considered Tier 4 where neither the Manga nor other publications cover, and a separate continuum otherwise". We have accepted the "Lilin" romanization from Rebuild, after all.

I think it would be better to take such instances case-by-case. It's possible that somethings that aren't elaborated on in the TV series can be taken as Tier 4, while others can't because of different backstories (what if the soul in Eva-00 is something completely different? A new angel or perhaps none of the Evas have souls?) which make those points contradictory to the series canon.

As for the romanization, I thought that there was other reasons for it as well as it showing up in Rebuild. I'm not exactly sure where the "Lilim" term originated from, maybe the ADV subtitles? Either way, there isn't a phonetic "m" sound (by itself) like there is with the "n" sound (ん). Maybe Reichu can explain it more.

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Postby Reichu » Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:11 am

Ornette wrote:As for the romanization, I thought that there was other reasons for it as well as it showing up in Rebuild. I'm not exactly sure where the "Lilim" term originated from, maybe the ADV subtitles? Either way, there isn't a phonetic "m" sound (by itself) like there is with the "n" sound (ん). Maybe Reichu can explain it more.

ADV's subtitles had used it, yes, which resulted in almost everyone else following suit. The actual word used in NGE is Ririn rather than Ririmu, so "Lilin" does make more sense (and this means AWL's script people "actually got something right").
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Postby V » Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:26 am

Providing answers or being part of the original series isn't the question at all- V considered bringing this into a separate, sixth tier of canon.


Actually I didn't know really what to do with it, and I figured that was best left to Reichu.

The Manga was made at the same time as the series but Rebuild was made later so their ideas may have changed....then again it is made by the exact same people, and "ideas changing" could easily be said of "End of Eva"....yeah.......I have no idea. Now I "more or less" consider it on par with the Manga, simply because we haven't had that many shocking departures from the original in Rebuild.....YET. Things will start changing in Rebuild 2.0 --> Thus, yeah, I hope Reichu gets to this.
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Postby Reichu » Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:14 pm

V wrote:The Manga was started at the same time as the series and probably won't be finished until after Rebuild

Fixed.

Thus, yeah, I hope Reichu gets to this.

I did, actually. ("It will be necessary to..." blah blah blah.)
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Postby UrsusArctos » Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:08 pm

Ornette wrote:I think it would be better to take such instances case-by-case. It's possible that somethings that aren't elaborated on in the TV series can be taken as Tier 4, while others can't because of different backstories (what if the soul in Eva-00 is something completely different? A new angel or perhaps none of the Evas have souls?) which make those points contradictory to the series canon.


I've got nothing to add here.

As for the "Lilin" romanization, we'd never seen it in print in any of the publications, so we used the ADV transliteration("Lilim") for the time being. Like Reichu says, the final "n" does make more sense, although the same character becomes an "m" before a "b" or a "p". (Maya calls Ritsuko Sempai and not Senpai, although many romanizations use the latter.)
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Postby Reichu » Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:34 pm

UrsusArctos wrote:Like Reichu says, the final "n" does make more sense, although the same character becomes an "m" before a "b" or a "p". (Maya calls Ritsuko Sempai and not Senpai, although many romanizations use the latter.)

It doesn't exactly become an "m"; the syllabic "n" is simply nasalized in those instances so that it sounds like one. As for transliterations, it's fundamentally a divergence in practice (Google can probably help if you're curious).
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:09 am

I'd like to reopen this issue and in addition take the opportunity to suggest a long overdue update to the tiers of canonicity. The tiers system was first proposed over 6(7) years ago, and there have been some major informational releases which need to be evaluated extensively.

The chief among these are Chronicle, NGE2, and or course Rebuild.

Chronicle

So far, Chronicle has been placed in Tier 3 and this seems correct (though most of chronicle is still untranslated). It was always intended to be a supplemental guide and that is exactly what Tier 3 is for.

There is however potentially a slight problem here. Chronicle is an extremely comprehensive guide to the original series and I can foresee potentially a huge amount of wiki material eventually being sourced from it. It seems to me that Chronicle is essentially a more authoritative source than something like, say, Cardass Cards, which raises the spectre of intra-tier ordering.

Since the tier system is supposed to be a simple system, I think it's better to avoid sub-numbering of canonicity such as tier 2.5/3.5 etc. What we could do—assuming Chronicle is more authoritative—is to simple say just that about it.

Rebuild
Having finally seen Rebuild, my opinion is exactly UrsusArctos' initial one; to place Rebuild firmly in Tier 4 canon.

Rebuild seems to me to in fact be far closer to the Manga in tone and sometimes content than to the original series. While it is a separate continuity, so too is the Manga. The events of 2.0 make clear that while the story of Rebuild may meander about the events from the original series, it is telling its own story and events.

This seems to me to be virtually the same tack that the Manga took and I think that Rebuild is suited to be placed in Tier 4 canon. In this way, while the separate continuity of Rebuild is implicitly acknowledged, material from it can still be considered where details in the original are scant or absent, e.g. regarding plug depth or Nerv second branch, say.

In short, Tier 4 sources differ from Tier 3 in that they are telling their own story of Evangelion, rather than being about the original story.

NGE 2 and the CI files
I think this is where problems arise.

Based on what I have learned about the game so far, and considering how much more in depth it is compared to the usual Eva game fare, one might at first glance be inclined so say that as a complete package, the information and scenarios that occur in NGE2 should be considered Tier 4 canon for much the same reasons that Rebuild should be. While the game is an "Interactive Eva Universe Simulator", its scenarios are still more or less scripted alternative takes on Evangelion in the same way as the Manga or Rebuild.

But there are two key differences here. Firstly from what I understand NGE2—as a "universe simulator"—consciously restricts itself to the world of the original series. In this sense, it would differ from the Manga and Rebuild in that it is presenting "what if" scenarios rather than a different story. At least if my understanding is correct.

This would have serious consequences for any information from the game, even very superfluous information. For example, what if there was a map of the Geofront in the game? Or a schematic of the Evas internals? Or information on the ranks and uniforms of Nerv? Such material would seem to me to be more suited to Tier 3 canon, as supplemental information on the original series, rather than Tier 4.

The Second key difference is of course the Classified Information files. So far, these have been given very elevated status (Tier 2.5), but this presents a problem. While the CI files are highly detailed and useful, strictly speaking there is no official reason to distinguish information from the CI files from any other information we can garner from NGE2. We've had discussions about this very point in this (recent) thread. In short, the problem is that in treating the CI files differently from the rest of the game, we could be accused of making an unjustified distinction.

My current thinking on this is that NGE2, if it is indeed restricting itself to the universe of the original series, should be taken as a Third Tier canon source. In addition to this, to avoid the problem of intra-work distinction, I think that the CI files should also be placed in Third Tier canon.

Production Materials
Once final, slightly unrelated point I'd like to bring up is the matter of production materials; the proposal, scripts, images, etc. Now, currently these reside in Tier 1 canon, but only if they were the production materials related to the final product. Again, the distinction is slightly artificial.

One problem here is what to do with production material which didn't make the final cut, or which shows significant alterations? It's can't go in Tier 1, but as it was made by the creators themselves, it's not exactly Tier 5 stuff. Real complications could exist here. The best example being the #24 script drafts.

My point here is that there is a very wide spectrum of production materials which aren't really dealt with currently, except on a case by case basis. Perhaps we should looking into trying to formalise this situation somewhat.

That's all I can think of for now. What are people's thoughts on the above, in particular on the matter of the canonicity of Rebuild and NGE2?
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Postby NemZ » Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:52 pm

I don't understand why anything other than the show and films themselves are tier 1. It seems to me that scripts, storyboards and the like should be tier 2, since at best they were internal guides to the creation of the show, not part of it.

I also disagree with the implicit statement that 21'-26' are essentially more official than the original version. I consider them the equivalent of 2nd tier to each other at best.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:24 pm

I agree that the distinction being made between the Classified Information and the rest of Neon Genesis Evangelion 2 is completely artificial, and it was a distinction I originally made entirely out of ignorance. I've revisited my position more recently.

If midway tiers are to be deemed out of bounds, I propose that the relevant information contained within NGE2 be given greater precedence than, say, Chronicle. This is due to the fact that we know Anno played a role in NGE2, which I cannot confirm for Chronicle and the like. This will be important in the event of intra-tier sources of conflict (for example, NGE2 and Chronicle disagree on where the Spear of Longinus came from).

Putting Rebuild in 4th Tier seems misplaced to me, the reason being that its departures from NGE are so great. Sadamoto's manga adaptation is, unlike the new movies, still Neon Genesis Evangelion. Additionally, the new movies, due to their scale and sufficient differences, will essentially end up generating their own tiers. Stuffing them into NGE's tiers makes no real sense to me. It's not as if they even contain that much information that is even the least bit pertinent to the original continuity anyway.

I could go with scripts, storyboards, production drawings, etc., all falling under #2. But this gets messier the less contemporary the production materials are. Scripts proper tend to be very finalized, but what about screenplays, which can contain significant divergences? And stuff as old as the Proposal -- well, that's pretty old, and while bits and pieces might have made it through unscathed, or are otherwise still useful, most of it is just historical.
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Postby UrsusArctos » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:57 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Putting Rebuild in 4th Tier seems misplaced to me, the reason being that its departures from NGE are so great. Sadamoto's manga adaptation is, unlike the new movies, still Neon Genesis Evangelion. Additionally, the new movies, due to their scale and sufficient differences, will essentially end up generating their own tiers. Stuffing them into NGE's tiers makes no real sense to me. It's not as if they even contain that much information that is even the least bit pertinent to the original continuity anyway.


I agree with all of this.

OMF, I had the idea of placing Rebuild in Tier 4 after watching 1.0, which diverged from the old series only in small details. But now...

SPOILER: Show
2.0 diverges so much from the original series that lumping it in Tier 4 would make no sense at all. It's now a completely different animal.
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:52 pm

I'm in disagreement that Rebuild departs so extensively from the series that it cannot be considered in Tier 4. Certainly, while its differences from the series may be greater in degree than the Manga, I don't think they (yet) constitute an order of magnitude difference. I found Rebuild to actually be quite close to the Manga in tone if not in content.

Obviously Rebuild is not yet done, and the differences which yet emerge could be greater still. But for now, I'd like people to reconsider what it means to be in Tier 4; fairly far down the chain of canonicity only one step above the ADV Platinum commentaries. My feeling is that however much Rebuild diverges, whenever it has something to say that is relevant to the original series it should have a higher canonicity than Tier 5 statements.

For example, in 1.x there is—if I remember correctly—footage of Shinji's piloting seat actually descending down the plug while "plug depth" is being mentioned in the background. I don't ever recall such footage being shown in the series and the manga is a sequence of static drawings. Perhaps I am dense, but it never really occurred to me before that plug depth actually referred to the physical seat depth within the plug. Anyway, without wanting to get into a debate on this issue here, my point is that Rebuild material may still have canonically relevant material to consider which merits its placement on the Tiers system.
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Postby cyharding » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:05 pm

View Original PostObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:One problem here is what to do with production material which didn't make the final cut, or which shows significant alterations? It's can't go in Tier 1, but as it was made by the creators themselves, it's not exactly Tier 5 stuff. Real complications could exist here. The best example being the #24 script drafts.


Because the materials almost seem to defy classification; maybe instead of putting them in a distinct tier, perhaps it is best to show how these materials evolved into the final tier 1 episodes. What we could do is something similar to what scholars do with various editions of a work of literature. What a person or group of people could do is take these earlier scripts of a particular episode and collate them to show all the variants starting from Proposal all the way to what we can call the final shooting script. This would create a pseudo-variorum edition of the scripts.

While this is in the realm of possibility, I do admit is has its drawbacks. It would be very time consuming and in some ways as much work as the commentary. It would also require a general knowledge of Japanese and multiple people willing to participate. I know this might not be a feasible idea for the wiki at this time, but I still believe that it's an idea that is worth sharing, if only to generate discussion. At least, that's what I think.
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Postby BattleMonkey » Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:58 am

It's best to put it in it's own universe and not try to connect it with the others. When anime/sci fi fans try to mesh multiple versions of a story together, it usually is just a mess and created arguments.

You have different versions of a story with different backgrounds, events, production staffs, etc, etc... it's best to have them considered separate.

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:17 pm

View Original Postcyharding wrote:What a person or group of people could do is take these earlier scripts of a particular episode and collate them to show all the variants starting from Proposal all the way to what we can call the final shooting script. This would create a pseudo-variorum edition of the scripts.
And I think such a creation would find a good home in Third Tier canon, or at least a lot of it would.

Clearly, your suggestions would be difficult, but overall I like the idea of giving some sense of order to the production materials. At the moment we have no systematic way of treating them without which they are difficult to properly assess.

View Original PostBattleMonkey wrote:It's best to put it in it's own universe and not try to connect it with the others. When anime/sci fi fans try to mesh multiple versions of a story together, it usually is just a mess and created arguments.

I'm not suggesting that we attempt to mesh the stories in any way. What I am suggesting is that, like the Manga, Rebuild may have useful things to say about the original series which are not contradicted by higher tier canon. We already know this to be the case for the Manga and NGE2, which I would argue differ only by degree.
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