NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

For serious and at times in-depth discussions only, covering the original TV series, the movies End of Evangelion and Death & Rebirth.

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Postby Reichu » Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:41 pm

Shin-seiki wrote:Also, is it just me, or does the notion that there were only seven Seeds going out into the whole wide galaxy make the fact that two of the seven ended up on the same out-of-the-way little planet seem a bit much to swallow? I mean, I know there's no story without it, but still...

Yeah, I had the same thought. (I'd typed it up to post, as well, but I'm not quite sure what happened there...) Kind of makes me wonder if there is more going on than mere "bad luck".

I haven't started any other endings yet, but I know that the PSP stuff for Rei has her Lilith consciousness telling her to get the Fruit of Life. Maybe...? We'll see.

Legendary wrote:In the TV show, they aren't even mentioned.

Not by name or anything, but we were thrown two (arguably three) hints that something sci-fi progenitor-y was going on.

Aura wrote:Also, @7 Seeds/Carriers: I find myself kind of doubting that the FAR only sent out seven Carriers through the entire frickin' universe. Could there be some other possible meaning, like...Seven TYPES, Seven REMAINING, etc?


???:君や僕を含めて、故郷の民を乗せたキャリアは7つあった。
???: Kimi ya boku o fukumete, kokyou no min o noseta kyaria wa 7tsu atta.

Bolded part very straightforwardly says, "there were seven carriers". There's no way to interpret this as anything else; "(noun) wa #tsu" is a basic grammatical structure for saying how many of something there are/were. If you want to say "types of" or "remaining", additional language would have been included
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Postby Grimmjow » Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:43 pm

Is it just me or am I the only one who finds, the theory, "The aliens(FAR) did IT) completely unsatisfactory. I mean its like the whole aliens made the pyramids theory(which is kinda funny considering Nerv built a pyramid in the Geofront).

Regardless, the 7 different Seeds thing doesn't really surprise me. After all, it makes sense for FAR to produce more than one Seed.

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Postby Reichu » Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:06 pm

Grimmjow wrote:Is it just me or am I the only one who finds, the theory, "The aliens(FAR) did IT) completely unsatisfactory.

What would satisfy you? In the show itself, Gendo tells Fuyutsuki that the Geofront had already been excavated when they found it (i.e., preexisting), and scans made by the Katsuragi Expedition of the White Moon indicate that its surface has an artificial structure (i.e., not natural, i.e., somebody made it). Would you prefer that some kind of super-powerful Terran protohumans or the Abrahamic God or the Flying Spaghetti Monster were responsible?

Extraterrestrial protohumans fit much better thematically, considering that Yui sends herself out into space at the very end, and could possibly one day create life (in keeping with her status as a copy of a source of life -- which is known from completely in-show material) for whom we would be the progenitor aliens.

Regardless, the 7 different Seeds thing doesn't really surprise me. After all, it makes sense for FAR to produce more than one Seed.

Adam and Lilith made it clear that there were at least two (= more than one).
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Postby AyrYntake » Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:43 am

Putting aside for the moment the question of whether we believe it or not, doesn't this undermine our common conception of an Impact as necessarily a bad thing?
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Postby Azathoth » Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:52 am

AyrYntake wrote:Putting aside for the moment the question of whether we believe it or not, doesn't this undermine our common conception of an Impact as necessarily a bad thing?


Didn't the fact that it returns humanity to a state of bliss and joy already undermine that?

SEELE are a nefarious-looking bunch, but they weren't about to kill the entire human race unless they genuinely believed it was a good thing to do.
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Postby AyrYntake » Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:04 am

Azathoth wrote:Didn't the fact that it returns humanity to a state of bliss and joy already undermine that?

That's if and only if it can still be defined as humanity. Swimming around in a soup where my soul is--for all effects and purposes--unbounded, impotent and strictly non-physical is not my idea of living.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:46 am

I think we are wandering off topic here as well and should relocate to somewhere like this -- viewtopic.php?t=3328
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Postby NAveryW » Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:56 pm

Reichu wrote:The FAR were only powerful through technology.
If that's the case I missed something important. Please cite your source so I may consume it fangoriously.
Reichu wrote:Kaworu is told that all of his children have to abandon their forms in order to make the journey to the other Seed's Moon. So if the Evas go with Kaworu, but without their "forms", what's left? Souls, I'm guessing.
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Postby Allemann » Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:21 pm

Legendary wrote:I'm not seeing a lot of existential dread. And really, they're only a background detail. They don't, for example, have a lot to do with Asuka's attempts to be seen as the best.


Legendary, these entities determined humanity's entire destiny and nature. It is their actions and decisions that motivated SEELE to bring into motion all the events that constitute Evangelion. There would be no NERV, no Human Instrumentality Project, no Evangelions, and, most of all, no such personalities like Shinji, Asuka, Misato, Gendo, or others.

And by this, I do not state the obvious basic existential dependence. What I mean is the way humans exists in Evangelion. It is hard to think the FAR was unaware of how their creation would turn out. Contrary to some, in this case, essence does precede existence. The essence the FAR gave to humans and what defines human as such. In a quite direct way, the FAR is responsible for how Shinji feels, Asuka feels, Misato feels, Yui feels, Keel feels, how everybody feels. The effect of such essence is clearly seen and articulated by SEELE's Human Limitation Theory.

With the FAR, it is easy to explain what SEELE's main impetus is, and why are they capable of doing anything to achieve their goals. What SEELE does can be described as a creation's act of rebellion against its creator, motivated by their rejection and frustration at the mode of existence with which their creator endowed them. And only anger at existence itself can generate such evil.

That someone can make beings capable of such myriad of actions as conveyed in Evangelion makes them a little bit more the non-entities and generic aliens. The only emotions that can come to me are sheer fear and trembling.

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Postby Legendary » Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:29 pm

Actually, they are INdirectly responsible for everyone. Yes, they sent Lilith. But the entire scenario was an ACCIDENT. If Lilith had gone where she should have gone, none of the characters would be as messed up as they are in the series, with the possible exception of Gendo. They are a prime mover, yes, but that DOESN'T mean that by their actions, the world is shaped.

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Postby Reichu » Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:41 pm

NAveryW wrote:
Reichu wrote:The FAR were only powerful through technology.
If that's the case I missed something important. Please cite your source so I may consume it fangoriously.

Implication of this:

CI wrote:Within a carrier known as a "Moon", the First Ancestral Race fabricated a perfect cavity (also referred to as a "Moon"), at which point the Seed, or "Progenitor Entity", would be placed inside and sent out into space. That was their technology, and, from the perspective of Angels, humans, and others, they might be called gods.

Even that technology appears to have limits, though, since they apparently can't rescue planets from cosmic doom.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:19 pm

Legendary, these entities determined humanity's entire destiny and nature. It is their actions and decisions that motivated SEELE to bring into motion all the events that constitute Evangelion. There would be no NERV, no Human Instrumentality Project, no Evangelions, and, most of all, no such personalities like Shinji, Asuka, Misato, Gendo, or others.


Where in the bloody effing hell are you getting this from? You make it sound like the FAR are hovering nearby controlling everyone's actions.

And by this, I do not state the obvious basic existential dependence. What I mean is the way humans exists in Evangelion. It is hard to think the FAR was unaware of how their creation would turn out. Contrary to some, in this case, essence does precede existence. The essence the FAR gave to humans and what defines human as such. In a quite direct way, the FAR is responsible for how Shinji feels, Asuka feels, Misato feels, Yui feels, Keel feels, how everybody feels. The effect of such essence is clearly seen and articulated by SEELE's Human Limitation Theory.


See above. Where are you getting this from? FAR has no responsibility for the individual character of humans, they just planted the seeds and didn't stick around to observe.

With the FAR, it is easy to explain what SEELE's main impetus is, and why are they capable of doing anything to achieve their goals. What SEELE does can be described as a creation's act of rebellion against its creator, motivated by their rejection and frustration at the mode of existence with which their creator endowed them. And only anger at existence itself can generate such evil.


Contradicts their actual intent.
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Postby NemZ » Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:00 pm

I believe Alemnan is just saying they are the base cause, not that they actually planned every single detail out like it was a predestined intent. However the problems of the human condition in general, specifically a need to connect with others but never able to truely do so, may have been an intentional design choice.
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Postby Octahedron » Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:12 am

I've always thought the FAR as being more than just generic aliens. It would seem pretty likely that since they posessed the knowlege on creating both the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowlege, they may have posessed both themselves, making them beings with Angel-like power and Lilim-like intelligence. But even if you are a race of physical gods, there isn't much you can do to stop, say, a sun going nova. Ofcourse if there were only 7 Carriers, it raises the question of how did two end up on the same planet. You'd think they'd have taken precautions to launch them to different directions.

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Postby AyrYntake » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:11 pm

If there are seven Seeds what does this tell us about the "fruits" of Knowledge and of Life? T'would be a little boring if just two existed, and some had one and some the other.
Could there possibly be more fruits? Perhaps some combinations are fatal, and some not? If that were the case, it would solve the problem of the unidentified Seed beckoning Kaworu to join him with impunity since, well, maybe their merging/coexistence might not be so bad a combination after all. Maybe only certain combinations create a godlike being, and some don't.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:49 pm

View Original PostAyrYntake wrote:If there are seven Seeds what does this tell us about the "fruits" of Knowledge and of Life? T'would be a little boring if just two existed, and some had one and some the other.
Could there possibly be more fruits?

Judging from this:

You and I were designers to the people whom we had brought with us.
After implanting into a world somewhere, we either bestowed upon them shapes as any form of life, or acted as representatives and chose the forms.

...they're suggesting the kind of dichotomy with Fruity tie-ins. But, honestly, who knows. If there are others, I'm not sure if there is any religio-symbolic precedent for what they possibly could be.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:50 pm

View Original PostAyrYntake wrote:If there are seven Seeds what does this tell us about the "fruits" of Knowledge and of Life?


O seven apples on a witch's tree
With seven seeds to plant inside of me
In springtime I grew a magic song
Then skipping along, oh I sang the song to everyone


Sorry, couldn't resist.
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Postby Allemann » Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:08 pm

View Original PostOctahedron wrote:I've always thought the FAR as being more than just generic aliens. It would seem pretty likely that since they posessed the knowlege on creating both the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowlege, they may have posessed both themselves, making them beings with Angel-like power and Lilim-like intelligence.


This should be one of the most obvious and plane facts available to every viewer.

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Postby Reichu » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:10 pm

View Original PostAllemann wrote:This should be one of the most obvious and plane facts available to every viewer.

If you're not trying to troll, you should be a little more consistently tactful and non-abrasive. I'm serious.

On topic, the reason it may not be obvious and plain is because we quite simply do not know, which leaves different possibilities open for consideration.

We know the FAR had stupendous technology, which means they needed a reason to develop this technology. A logical reason would be that they are intrinsically limited, hence the need to overcome these limitations, hence the development of technology. If they were never limited in the first place -- e.g. had Angel-scale powers -- this would make the pursuit of technology somewhat unlikely.

A common theme with limited and technological beings is the desire to create or become gods = to have an existence that is timeless and extremely powerful and so forth. This would play some role in their motivation to create Seeds and the S2 Engine (= Fruit of Life), and to enable some of the humanities of the future to enjoy such an existence, at the expense of the unique existence that accompanies limitation.

Now, you ask, if they developed the technology to make and become gods, wouldn't they have all become a double-fruited super-race long before their planet was in danger?

First off, the only source of info on them gives no indication that this is the case; it says that they're humanoid, and that they're perceived as gods on account of their technology-based achievements. Nothing implying supernatural abilities.

Second, they all entrust their souls to Seeds who ostensibly have one Fruit apiece, so that they can be reborn later.
- The Seeds are one of the FAR's prided technological achievements. Why would this be so, if the Seeds are essentially lesser than the FAR themselves?
- Why would the FAR, upon viewing their collective existence as endangered, entrust themselves to lesser beings?
- If the FAR had possessed both Fruits at once, why would they separate the Fruits in descendant forms of humanity? Why would uniting the fruits be considered forbidden or undesirable?

Third, Eva-01, who is a double-fruited entity, is capable of surviving in space. Double-fruited FAR could have made an exodus through deep space or something and not bothered with all that Seed and Moon nonsense.

Hope that gets the idea across.
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Postby Teague » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:23 pm

Perhaps the right place, perhaps not...but I can't get over the feeling that there's a connection between the FAR sending out the seeds before, for all intents and purposes vanishing, and the great big 'DON'T CROSS THE SEEDS' warning in the manual they send with them...
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