Shin(ji)ko - WHY?

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Postby EVAANS » Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:39 am

I always found it interesting when the gender of well known characters is swapped (for want of a better word). I apologize if this point has already been made, but could it be that some people relate better to their own gender and therefore swap the characters gender to suite? Or they like particular traits of the character but don’t want to be branded as being "effeminate" or "masculine" so switch the characters gender to get around those issues? Im not trying to cause offence, just a thought..

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Postby Synapsid » Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:51 pm

EVAANS wrote:I always found it interesting when the gender of well known characters is swapped (for want of a better word). I apologize if this point has already been made, but could it be that some people relate better to their own gender and therefore swap the characters gender to suite? Or they like particular traits of the character but don’t want to be branded as being "effeminate" or "masculine" so switch the characters gender to get around those issues? Im not trying to cause offence, just a thought..
Don't worry, you aren't offending anyone at all, in fact I think what you have to say is very interesting, thanks ^_^

The reaction is certainly a funny thing, since Shinji is already very well known as a disgusting and or faggy according to Otaku male character it surprises some people that brush him away to find out that changing a few superficial traits easily makes him an moe female character (which seeing as how Shin's a feminine looking bishonen it needs little more than putting him in a dress) and having something like that make a bishoujo character does manage to provoke interesting reactions from people, (/a/ as a whole doesn’t like being confused by what essentially is a trap of something they despise.

And like you said, it seems that Shin-chan is sometimes made a girl by some fujoshi that might identify better with a girl but don’t want to see Kaworu with anyone but Shinji, so a minor change in Shin-chan’s design normally can address that, a similar thing applies to making him a trap, except that his anatomy doesn’t change then (so it’s still yaoi, and he does get turned into a trap during the show so there isn’t any suspension of disbelief needed there). It doesn’t actually change any of the K/S character dynamics since Shinji was essentially the girl in that relation, so playing and wearing the trappings of that role isn’t a problem. It also is interesting to see how changing something like Shinji’s gender might affect the dynamics in the show and the way fans would have seen him (Of course he’s already seen as one so genben has a different effect on viewers than if Shin would have been female from the start)
Image Sorry, I guess all the talk about Shinji being Kaworu's princess kind of got me to drop this here.
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Postby EVAANS » Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:58 am

Synapsid wrote:
EVAANS wrote:I always found it interesting when the gender of well known characters is swapped (for want of a better word). I apologize if this point has already been made, but could it be that some people relate better to their own gender and therefore swap the characters gender to suite? Or they like particular traits of the character but don’t want to be branded as being "effeminate" or "masculine" so switch the characters gender to get around those issues? Im not trying to cause offence, just a thought..
Don't worry, you aren't offending anyone at all, in fact I think what you have to say is very interesting, thanks ^_^

The reaction is certainly a funny thing, since Shinji is already very well known as a disgusting and or faggy according to Otaku male character it surprises some people that brush him away to find out that changing a few superficial traits easily makes him an moe female character (which seeing as how Shin's a feminine looking bishonen it needs little more than putting him in a dress) and having something like that make a bishoujo character does manage to provoke interesting reactions from people, (/a/ as a whole doesn’t like being confused by what essentially is a trap of something they despise.

And like you said, it seems that Shin-chan is sometimes made a girl by some fujoshi that might identify better with a girl but don’t want to see Kaworu with anyone but Shinji, so a minor change in Shin-chan’s design normally can address that, a similar thing applies to making him a trap, except that his anatomy doesn’t change then (so it’s still yaoi, and he does get turned into a trap during the show so there isn’t any suspension of disbelief needed there). It doesn’t actually change any of the K/S character dynamics since Shinji was essentially the girl in that relation, so playing and wearing the trappings of that role isn’t a problem. It also is interesting to see how changing something like Shinji’s gender might affect the dynamics in the show and the way fans would have seen him (Of course he’s already seen as one so genben has a different effect on viewers than if Shin would have been female from the start)
Image Sorry, I guess all the talk about Shinji being Kaworu's princess kind of got me to drop this here.


Cheers :)
Thats a very interesting point. I didnt think about how the changing of the characters gender would have to be done with regards to the characters position within the series (ie Kaworu and Shinji or Shinji and Asuka), and also that changing Shinji's gender might be peoples attempt to like the character (although this is perhaps falling into gender stereotypes...). I agree, it would be very interesting to see peoples reaction to Shinji if he was female from the get-go..I wonder if people are really struggling with all of the characters disfunctional interaction with each other and it is easiest to project that dislike upon Shinji because of his personality despite his gender.. Thats why I love NGE it always generates interesting discussions!

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Postby Synapsid » Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:33 pm

Sorry, I guess the post kind of ended up becoming a bit longer than I intended, and I was late in my reply(like usual), I hope that isn't too much of a problem :sweatdrop:
EVAANS wrote:Cheers :)
That's a very interesting point. I didnt think about how the changing of the characters gender would have to be done with regards to the characters position within the series (ie Kaworu and Shinji or Shinji and Asuka), and also that changing Shinji's gender might be peoples attempt to like the character (although this is perhaps falling into gender stereotypes...). I agree, it would be very interesting to see peoples reaction to Shinji if he was female from the get-go..I wonder if people are really struggling with all of the characters dysfunctional interaction with each other and it is easiest to project that dislike upon Shinji because of his personality despite his gender.. Thats why I love NGE it always generates interesting discussions!
I certainly agree with you, the way that labels characters like "boy" or "girl" (or pilot) are tagged on change the way the characters deal with each other, and the what the audience sees them as and expects from them is very interesting, especially with something that messes with gender roles like EVA. In this case it'a bit funny since Shinji's androgynous enough that ("minor differences" aside) nothing would have to be changed in his design and personality to make him an an androgynous girl. As a whole I think that had Shinji been female from the start the way EVA was perceived(enough so that the original audience might have seen it as a really fucked up bishojo show) ,even if nothing else changes: the original shonen audience would have been more nonchalant about Shin-chan's behavior and they might not have identified with the vulnerable/weak elements in as personal a manner (probably one of the reasons behind Anno deciding to make his girl pilot a girlish boy instead), and I can guess that the shonen fans as a whole wouldn't have been as bothered by an expression of bisexuality from Shin. They probably would have also been in inclined to see kakkoii Kaworu as Shin-chan's white knight and that relation would probably not bring up any sort of kneejerk repulsion from fans, it might also mean that the relation with Asuka would be seen as some sort of dead end yuri relation that yandere Shin-chan digs up in desperation after she kills her angel (the masturbation scene and instrumentality sex scenes would probably be regarded as some sort of massive fanservice on Anno's part, so there probably wouldn't have been as many angry /a/nons when it came to EOE, if nothing else but for that reason). It might mean that Anno's intent would all slip by the shonen audience if they can't identify with a girl protagonist as well though...


It probably would also have changed Shinji’s way of interacting with the others, possibly for the better, Shinji already looks like his mother but it seems that the “son” part results in Gendo projecting his self hate on to him (and in the manga he did basically say that he didn’t want a son) so he might have identified a daughter with Yui (and if he did decide to send her away “Fuyutsuki-sensei” would probably have volunteered to care for her...that might be a bad thing though). Also it most likely would have meant that the awkward attraction Misato has towards the puppy would have probably not been in play and her relation with Shinji might have been closer to an older sister role than the messy one from the show (although it means that she might project even more on Shin-chan which could be a problem, especially if the angels are involved). It probably would also mean that the sexual and role tension Shinji has with Asuka might be lessened, I don’t think Asuka would expect Shin-chan to act like Kaji, and not holding her probably wouldn’t be as much of a problem,(then again Asuka could also be into girls, or Shin-chan might not like to wear skirts so she meets episode8 happens with her dressed in boy clothes and Asuka thinks she’s a bishi for that reason, and trol/fujoshi Misato might intentionally work to fool her...of course once it gets out Asuka would be enraged at the “lie” and vent it all on Shin-chan.) :asuka_geh: :shinji_boohoo:

It also would change her interactions with male friends and classmates: Touji wouldn’t hit a girl,(or if Touji hit her because he thought she was a boy because she wasn’t wearing a skirt he’d feel horrible once he finds out) and since Touji seemed to have a rather protective demeanor towards his friends, and he was rather understanding of Shinji’s circumstance so it’s possible that T/S of some sort would have developed if Shin-chan was a girl(they did say that Rei was attractive and Shinji already looks almost like her), it would also mean that the incident with Bardiel might hurt Shin-chan more(Shin might have made good on her threat then) and Hikari might also resent the pilot girl for leaching Touji’s affection from her and then crushing him.(It’s possible that Shin-might feel guilty enougth that she doesn’t dare face Touji afterwards :shinji_boohoo: ). Kensuke would probably also end up with a huge crush on the pilot girl, and he’d probably be thrilled that she gives them the time of day, it probably would be a totally once sided crush though (despite the Jacques/Nadia background), and as a whole the boys at the school would probably have kept up their interest longer as her evasive attitude towards them would have been seen as normal shyness, and Shinji’s personality kind of keeps up with the normal for a Japanese girl so it’s possible that she might have been as popular as Asuka(something that might annoy Asuka).
It also would have changed some of the specifics of the relation with Kaworu although I doubt all that much would have changed within the show, I don’t think Shin-chan would really fell all that many reservations at going with him, so she might be more open and affectionate with Tabby-kun(especially with the tsunderemanga version, although Shin-chan would probably freak out a bit if Kaworu follows her to the baths), Misato might also identify Shin-chan having to kill Taby with her own loss, and might be more sympathetic afterwards.
ImageSorry, I guess I just wanted to use the "Shinji wanted to be the little girl" image after it made it's way to /a/
As far as genben of the character goes though it seems that people that already dislike Shinji aren't going to like seeing something sexual with him, and might only see skirt wearing as even more confusing in a trap type way, so the genben normally seems to come from individuals that already like him and wouldn't mind changing a certain trait for whatever reason. As whole it seems like the overwhelming majority of genben/trap stuff is done by the Japanese side of the fandom(like it’s been said before that type of “onagata” stuff seems to be much more routine there) and it seems like the groups most involved will be BL groups that will Ship Shin-chan with Kaworu,(Touji and Kaji to a lesser degree) often in some sort of AU world where Shin-chan was a girl and the two aren’t fated to kill each other, often Shin(ji)ko’s design will be some sort of reverse trapish look that keeps Shinji’s girlish boy design but is really a girl this time around and Kaworu sometimes finds out about that only by accident.
There’s also /d/ type stuff
(which seems to be more comon than BL stuff when it comes to the western fandom) behind some of the material, which normally couples Shin(ji)ko/trapji with the female characters, it’s most comonly with Asuka who normaly tends to sadistic domination in them, or Twincest with Rei(it seems to sell better if both twins are or look the same gender) or exploitation from Misato.
Of course there’s no rigid division and many groups will publish material that falls outside of the trends; for example, Kumausagi seems to normally produce moeish Kaworu/Shinji material but she released two Asuka/Shinji doujins that involved Shinji turning into a girl
[URL=http://s528.photobucket.com/albums/dd325/Synapsidia/EVA/?action=view&current=book4-2.jpg]Image[/URL]* cue Shinji's bloodcurling girly scream*.[
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Postby supershinjiasukashipper » Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:18 pm

okay, here are my main problems with this.

1. Shinji is made to be a male, just a male trying to find himself and define jimself as one. him as a female takes away from the story.

2. i see this as a ploy by yaoi fans to justfy the Shinji / kaowru relationship, it still dosn't fly though with people who oppose it.

3. i think Shinji went through enough without having to be imasculated.

this being said, that Shinji / Asuka gender switch thing sounds disturbing too. poor shin. :shakehead:

now i have a question, and a point to make with this, why is it in all Shinji / kaowru yaoi, all yaoi related to Shinji for that matter, i have heard of, why dose Shinji play the female role during their, umm, relations. aren't you trying to force an ideal on him based upon his effeminacy, why can't he take the dominant role?
think about that please. thats reason #52 why that train of Shinji relationship related though bothers me.
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Postby Joseph the PRPD » Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:21 pm

Gender-bending fandoms aren't limited to Evangelion. It's all in good fun even if you don't agree with it. Don't take it seriously.
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Postby supershinjiasukashipper » Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:25 pm

Joseph the PRPD wrote:Gender-bending fandoms aren't limited to Evangelion. It's all in good fun even if you don't agree with it. Don't take it seriously.
i don't usually, its just i relate to that character more than any i've ever known, and i think he gets too much crap.
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Postby Joseph the PRPD » Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:31 pm

How do these pictures show that "he gets to much crap"? You say it like someone is bashing him.
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Postby supershinjiasukashipper » Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:34 pm

Joseph the PRPD wrote:How do these pictures show that "he gets to much crap"? You say it like someone is bashing him.

its hard to explain. its just like taking what made Shinji good old Shinji, the fact he was an ackward teenage boy who didn't know what he wanted, but learned over time what he wanted, and what was good in life. (even if he ended the world before he realized it.)
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Postby Mongoosedog » Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:40 pm

shinjidoggysasuka wrote:
Joseph the PRPD wrote:How do these pictures show that "he gets to much crap"? You say it like someone is bashing him.

its hard to explain. its just like taking what made Shinji good old Shinji, the fact he was an ackward teenage boy who didn't know what he wanted, but learned over time what he wanted, and what was good in life. (even if he ended the world before he realized it.)

dude, just close your eyes and fap, it'll be awkward at first and you may feel some shame but after that everything will feel just right
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Postby supershinjiasukashipper » Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:44 pm

Mongoosedog wrote:
shinjidoggysasuka wrote:
Joseph the PRPD wrote:How do these pictures show that "he gets to much crap"? You say it like someone is bashing him.

its hard to explain. its just like taking what made Shinji good old Shinji, the fact he was an ackward teenage boy who didn't know what he wanted, but learned over time what he wanted, and what was good in life. (even if he ended the world before he realized it.)

dude, just close your eyes and fap, it'll be awkward at first and you may feel some shame but after that everything will feel just right

shin beat you to the punch with that, probably many a time. :nyao:
or was that another kind of referance, that asprin i took earlier is kicking in.
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Postby Joseph the PRPD » Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:48 pm

shinjidoggysasuka wrote:
Joseph the PRPD wrote:How do these pictures show that "he gets to much crap"? You say it like someone is bashing him.

its hard to explain. its just like taking what made Shinji good old Shinji, the fact he was an ackward teenage boy who didn't know what he wanted, but learned over time what he wanted, and what was good in life. (even if he ended the world before he realized it.)


It wouldn't be all that different if he was a chick.
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Postby supershinjiasukashipper » Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:03 pm

Joseph the PRPD wrote:
shinjidoggysasuka wrote:
Joseph the PRPD wrote:How do these pictures show that "he gets to much crap"? You say it like someone is bashing him.

its hard to explain. its just like taking what made Shinji good old Shinji, the fact he was an ackward teenage boy who didn't know what he wanted, but learned over time what he wanted, and what was good in life. (even if he ended the world before he realized it.)


It wouldn't be all that different if he was a chick.

nah, cause then he would be perfectly defined in that role. imperfection is what made Shinji so amazing.
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Postby Joseph the PRPD » Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:08 pm

shinjidoggysasuka wrote:nah, cause then he would be perfectly defined in that role. imperfection is what made Shinji so amazing.

Joseph the PRPD wrote:It wouldn't be all that different if he was a chick.

I stand by my statement.
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Postby supershinjiasukashipper » Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:09 pm

Joseph the PRPD wrote:
shinjidoggysasuka wrote:nah, cause then he would be perfectly defined in that role. imperfection is what made Shinji so amazing.

Joseph the PRPD wrote:It wouldn't be all that different if he was a chick.

I stand by my statement.

lets do what right minded people do best, agree to disagree. ^_^
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Postby GasmaskAvenger » Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:40 pm

with all of this stuff going on, I might as well share my whole AU concept in which Rei is the main character, rather than Shinji

though her entire background, character arc & the events surrounding her have to be altered (As well as that she starts off being all introverted like she is normally, but as the series progresses, she & Shinji end up help each other become less closed off & eventually, Rei is pretty much acting like how she really is. Well, AU-wise)

SPOILER: Show
Also. She's not a clone of Yui, since Yui's alive for a good part of the series, until she dies from some kind of illness.

One last thing. Rei & Kaowru are actually regular kids that had angel DNA injected into them because of an experiment concocted by Seele to create a new race of people by injecting angel DNA into undevelop fetuses. While Kaworu (Who has the DNA from Adam injected into him when he was a fetus, thus making him a year older than Rei) doesn't go really well, Rei does (She has the DNA taken from Lilith. Same situation) & her birth mother flees & puts her into an orphanage, in which she's adopted shortly after by a family that are friends of the Ikaris, which is how she's later selected to be an EVA pilot, as well as being the first child
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Postby Teague » Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:33 pm

shinjidoggysasuka wrote:now i have a question, and a point to make with this, why is it in all Shinji / kaowru yaoi, all yaoi related to Shinji for that matter, i have heard of, why dose Shinji play the female role during their, umm, relations. aren't you trying to force an ideal on him based upon his effeminacy, why can't he take the dominant role?
think about that please. thats reason #52 why that train of Shinji relationship related though bothers me.


Because Shinji is innately submissive, the only times he tries to act dominant are when he feels he's compelled to (You are numbah wan!), is angy/frustrated (i.e having a spiff with Asuka), or having a mild bout of psychosis (read: Falcon Kick to Zeruel's face, stangling Asuka etc),

in turn, part of the whole relationship between Shinji and Kaworu is that Kaworu is one of the few people that doesn't agitate Shinji (unless we're talking evil manga kaworu)
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Postby GAP » Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:38 pm

@Syanpsid, I guess it all ties in the double standard again and how we supposedly changed that when we became "civilized".

GasmaskAvenger wrote:with all of this stuff going on, I might as well share my whole AU concept in which Rei is the main character, rather than Shinji

though her entire background, character arc & the events surrounding her have to be altered (As well as that she starts off being all introverted like she is normally, but as the series progresses, she & Shinji end up help each other become less closed off & eventually, Rei is pretty much acting like how she really is. Well, AU-wise)

SPOILER: Show
Also. She's not a clone of Yui, since Yui's alive for a good part of the series, until she dies from some kind of illness.

One last thing. Rei & Kaowru are actually regular kids that had angel DNA injected into them because of an experiment concocted by Seele to create a new race of people by injecting angel DNA into undevelop fetuses. While Kaworu (Who has the DNA from Adam injected into him when he was a fetus, thus making him a year older than Rei) doesn't go really well, Rei does (She has the DNA taken from Lilith. Same situation) & her birth mother flees & puts her into an orphanage, in which she's adopted shortly after by a family that are friends of the Ikaris, which is how she's later selected to be an EVA pilot, as well as being the first child


^ This.
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Postby supershinjiasukashipper » Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:44 pm

Teague wrote:
shinjidoggysasuka wrote:now i have a question, and a point to make with this, why is it in all Shinji / kaowru yaoi, all yaoi related to Shinji for that matter, i have heard of, why dose Shinji play the female role during their, umm, relations. aren't you trying to force an ideal on him based upon his effeminacy, why can't he take the dominant role?
think about that please. thats reason #52 why that train of Shinji relationship related though bothers me.


Because Shinji is innately submissive, the only times he tries to act dominant are when he feels he's compelled to (You are numbah wan!), is angy/frustrated (i.e having a spiff with Asuka), or having a mild bout of psychosis (read: Falcon Kick to Zeruel's face, stangling Asuka etc),

in turn, part of the whole relationship between Shinji and Kaworu is that Kaworu is one of the few people that doesn't agitate Shinji (unless we're talking evil manga kaworu)

still seems that your pushing the gender sterotype to him on the way he acts. also, if thats so, then that relationship is harmful to shin, he needs to be pushed so he can grow and become an adult.
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Joseph the PRPD
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Postby Joseph the PRPD » Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:54 pm

Because Shinji is innately submissive, the only times he tries to act dominant are when he feels he's compelled to (You are numbah wan!), is angy/frustrated (i.e having a spiff with Asuka), or having a mild bout of psychosis (read: Falcon Kick to Zeruel's face, stangling Asuka etc),

shinjidoggysasuka wrote:still seems that your pushing the gender sterotype to him on the way he acts.


That's the way Shinji is.
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