Messiah

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Postby TsubasaNoKoikokoro » Sat Sep 24, 2005 8:38 pm

Based on a conversation between me and Shnooks

Alright, so I was talking to Shnooks and we were arguing about wether or not Shinji was the incantation of Jesus in Evangelion.

She said that he was because he got crucified, he saved humanity and she viewed Yui as the virgin mary.

But I argued that Shinji did not save humanity. He saved himself because he decided he didn't want to run away. He wasn't told humans were saved before he chose that. He chose that selfishly in my opinion. I believe Yui was Jesus. Why? Well first off, God is genderless so therfor, his heir and child should be aswell. I wouldn't be suprised if(suposing Christianty is true) Jesus came back as a woman. Now, Shinji isn't crucified, Yui is insied of Unit 001. Shinji just happened to be inside of Yui when that happened. So techincally, it was Yui being crucified. Also, if you remember, in the scene at the beach, she is crucified on a cross over the ocean, dead. Also, Yui "dies and is reborn" her body dies wehn she enters Unit 001 but her sould is reborn inside of it. Jesus' body dies but his soul returns. Also, Eva 001 has many power, like Jesus, it can save lives and end them. I kinda view Gendo as Lucifer in contrast. He was once a beutiful soul, untainted by time. But his jealousy lead him to betray god(Yui and Shinji in this case) Lucifer regreted what he had done and that he was destroyed by good. now quoting Paradise Lost:

"Oh what a fool I was;
To try to become stronger
Than the thrown of his a'mighty;
So if I am to be thrown into darkness
Let evil be my good
And good my evil;
'Till return I to Paradise;"

Isn't that kinda like what Gendo did? He betray his son and loved ones by becoming selfish and intiated the end of humanity, only to reveal that he regreted it in the end. He did this to return to Yui, which could be a symbol of Gendo's paradise.

And if Yui is paradise, that further supports my theory that Yui is Jesus. No quoting the sequel to Paradise Lost, Paradise Regained:

"So ther' stood the man
Who was paradise reborn;
So that man may return all
To their' lost hom';"

And in this case, Shinji could be the Holy Spirit. "The guiding force of light" does he not guide Yui when he pilots Eva 001?

THose are my views, please post yours and feel free to argue.

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Postby Phaze » Sat Sep 24, 2005 8:49 pm

I still think Kaworu is the closest you're going to get to Jesus.
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Postby DatDude » Sat Sep 24, 2005 8:54 pm

I think Eva is more about Anno then anything else.

Other things may have been looked upon to help build it but its his pain his struggle with himself, and others that IS eva to me. Even if not knowing that man or likly to EVER know him I'll ever really know eva.

I don't think Shinji or yui are ment to represent christ I think they represent a boy that missed out on having a mom for what ever reason and suffred for it.

The thing that made eva more then just your avrage anime was the bit of his won struggle anno put into it as he used it to help himself.

Phaze wrote:I still think Kaworu is the closest you're going to get to Jesus.


Am I the only one that thinks angel boy was more harmful then helpful?
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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Sep 25, 2005 3:46 am

Overall -
http://www.evacommentary.org/op/op_1.html - cut 002b - please read.


@DatDude
Good post.

Kaworu did succeed in ensuring that NERV had no active pilots; but whose malice aforethought that might have been is open to debate. While trying not to open the can of theological worms that is the Problem of Evil, I'll say that he comes over more as an angel that has at least sauntered gently downwards.
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Postby TsubasaNoKoikokoro » Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:13 am

Mr. Tines wrote:Overall -
http://www.evacommentary.org/op/op_1.html - cut 002b - please read.


Oh, I already know all that... It is besides my point. My point is that there were religous symbols. So it wasn't unlikely in part of making it "look cool" they put some christian symbolism.

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Postby DatDude » Sun Sep 25, 2005 3:36 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:Overall -
http://www.evacommentary.org/op/op_1.html - cut 002b - please read.


@DatDude
Good post.

Kaworu did succeed in ensuring that NERV had no active pilots; but whose malice aforethought that might have been is open to debate. While trying not to open the can of theological worms that is the Problem of Evil, I'll say that he comes over more as an angel that has at least sauntered gently downwards.


Thanks Tines.

I just had a though on the angel boy angle. Didn't the other angels only hurt people with out realy meaning to? They were either trying to get to their goal, or in some way make contact and caused distruction with out really meaning to? If so it would fit with Kaworu as I see him atleast.
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Postby Zuggy » Sun Sep 25, 2005 3:41 pm

Deleted.
Last edited by Zuggy on Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Olin of Xephon » Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:57 am

It depends on your point of view.

First off, Shinji is but one in a growing list of Christ figures that have appeared in many movies since the dawn of Cinema (fiction for that matter) he is a single person forced to make a Christ like decision, one he struggles with constantly. This decision is simple. Sacrifice yourself to save those you love/the world.

Like Neo in the Matrix, Donnie Darko in well, Donnie Darko, Jean Crey in X-men 2, Luke Skywalker in Star Wars, and those are just popular examples, the list goes on and on.

As to wether or not Shinji is a reincarnation of Christ himself, that's a lot more dificult. According to Fuyutski the Eva had taken both of the fruits (Knowledge and Life) into itself and thus the pilot "Has become God."

Does that make him the Nazarene, son of God himself, no.

But then again, if we are all sons of God are we not all potential Christ figures?
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:57 am

I can't recall Shinji sacraficing himself for anyone. Unless that is you count his general acceptance of the misery that is piloting.
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Postby DatDude » Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:40 am

ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:I can't recall Shinji sacraficing himself for anyone. Unless that is you count his general acceptance of the misery that is piloting.


For once im with OMF
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Postby Fainne Roisin » Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:29 pm

I tend to think this discussion is just a Western culture overanalyzing things because they appear to have Christian symbols, but the concept is interesting nonetheless.
I've always percieved Shinji to be a Christ figure; his father tells him he must, so he is pushed into it even though he really doesn't want to, and ultimately the fate of the world is in his hands. In a general sense, it works fairly well, especially when we see the crucifixion.
I've never heard the Yui theory, but admit that it is compelling. However, I have to say that as a character, I don't think she is developed enough to warrant her being a christ like figure.

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Postby bp32 » Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:32 pm

ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:I can't recall Shinji sacraficing himself for anyone. Unless that is you count his general acceptance of the misery that is piloting.


We shouldn't be too caught up by the official 'story' the Vatican propogates about how Christ came to 'accept' his fate and die for the sins of humanity--I think its just as plausable that Christ behaved in much the same way as Shinji when faced with death. Shinji didn't want to pilot the Eva but he does in an effort to gain his father's approval. Inadvertantly he also suffers for humanity. However, if we suspend for the moment the notion that Christ did what he did for self-less reasons, maybe the two aren't that disimilar. Maybe Christ's behavior was undertaken more for the seeking of approval, for love, for some kind of recognition, especially from those who seemed eager to crown him the messiah (remember, others call Jesus such before he does). It is possible that he did what did in an effort to gain approval, recoginition--the same way that Shinji did. In the end he suffered for humanity, but it may have been inadvertant, much like Shinji.

There is a part of the Christian narrative which suggests to me that Christ was more of a pawn, much like Shinji--someone who was valued for what they could do to further someone else's objectives. In the end, when he tried to reach out to others he was met with coldness, pain, and punishment--again, how Shinji views the world. At this point, it is not unreasonable to imagine that Jesus may have felt much life Shinji on the cross, wanting to wish away his seperate/earthly existence given the pain he endured--just a thought...
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Postby DatDude » Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:34 pm

Fainne Roisin wrote:I tend to think this discussion is just a Western culture overanalyzing things because they appear to have Christian symbols, but the concept is interesting nonetheless.
I've always percieved Shinji to be a Christ figure; his father tells him he must, so he is pushed into it even though he really doesn't want to, and ultimately the fate of the world is in his hands. In a general sense, it works fairly well, especially when we see the crucifixion.
I've never heard the Yui theory, but admit that it is compelling. However, I have to say that as a character, I don't think she is developed enough to warrant her being a christ like figure.


I like the way you think keep posting here :)
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Postby Olin of Xephon » Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:55 pm

By sacrifice, I meant the act of giving himself to a larger and more important cause. The same way a soldier would lay down his life for his country. Wether or not his motives were pure is another discussion entirely, but the fact remains that it was his job to save the world. He became a means to humanity's freedom, or for that matter, it's destruction.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:20 pm

Olin of Xephon wrote:By sacrifice, I meant the act of giving himself to a larger and more important cause. The same way a soldier would lay down his life for his country.


Setting aside the fact that for most of EoE, the Passion-equivalent, Shinji was simply being nigh-catatonic; the only things he does where he takes the initiative are essentially selfish. He ends Complementation for himself, not for everyone else; and if he was prepared to lay down his life, that was because he couldn't commit suicide in any other fashion.
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Postby TsubasaNoKoikokoro » Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:15 pm

Fainne Roisin wrote:I tend to think this discussion is just a Western culture overanalyzing things because they appear to have Christian symbols, but the concept is interesting nonetheless.
I've always percieved Shinji to be a Christ figure; his father tells him he must, so he is pushed into it even though he really doesn't want to, and ultimately the fate of the world is in his hands. In a general sense, it works fairly well, especially when we see the crucifixion.
I've never heard the Yui theory, but admit that it is compelling. However, I have to say that as a character, I don't think she is developed enough to warrant her being a christ like figure.

True, I am not saying I am right or anything but I am just putting up a theory I had in my mind out.

And as for the christian symbols, yes we all know they were put in to make it look cool. But being Christ is a dominant Christian symbol, I wouldn't be suprised if they mixed that reffrence into the story.

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Postby Oblivious » Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:35 am

Olin of Xephon wrote:It depends on your point of view.

First off, Shinji is but one in a growing list of Christ figures that have appeared in many movies since the dawn of Cinema (fiction for that matter) he is a single person forced to make a Christ like decision, one he struggles with constantly. This decision is simple. Sacrifice yourself to save those you love/the world.

Like Neo in the Matrix, Donnie Darko in well, Donnie Darko, Jean Crey in X-men 2, Luke Skywalker in Star Wars, and those are just popular examples, the list goes on and on.

As to wether or not Shinji is a reincarnation of Christ himself, that's a lot more dificult. According to Fuyutski the Eva had taken both of the fruits (Knowledge and Life) into itself and thus the pilot "Has become God."

Does that make him the Nazarene, son of God himself, no.

But then again, if we are all sons of God are we not all potential Christ figures?


Pretty much what I wanted to say. Only that there is an overemphasis on religion, especially since Anno was simply using it to spice up his creation. We cannot say that Shinji is indeed Jesus, all we can do is draw paralells.

Continuing from that last quoted line, we should also stop trying to guess who is Jesus, because as Sons and Daughters of God, all of us are capable of sacrifice. Rei sacrificed her life to destroy an Angel and protect Shinji. Misato Sacrificed her life to get Shinji into Unit 01 in EoE, and would have done it to stop Jet Alone.
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Postby TsubasaNoKoikokoro » Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:30 am

Intresting point... I have to agree there.

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Postby Shnooks » Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:10 pm

Okay. I wasn't saying Shinji "saved the world" or sacrificed himself or anything crazy like that.

I was noting the similarities between Jesus and Shinji in EoE.

I got the impression that, in SEELE's point of veiw, third impact would save the world. Shinji was the one who was used to push forward 3rd impact. Thus, if you took the eyes of SEELE, Shinji would be the world's "savior".

I also saw a resemblance between Gendo, Shinji and Yui as God, The Son, and The Virgin Mary, respectivly. I got the impression Gendo was trying to be a God, by creating a God. Shinji, born from a man who desired to have the powers of God, and from a woman naive to his powers - almost virginal in the aspect that she had desired good, and Gendo had desired something else, though she did not notice - that there was a slight resemblance to The Father, The Son and The Virgin Mary. Not saying Yui was a virgin or nothin' like that.

I also said about him being "crucified" on a "cross" as a sign, because as he was "saving the world" he was being crucified. I believed it a symbolic thing to do. I'm going to assume here that most people, when they look at crosses, think of Jesus Christ - a savior.

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Postby TsubasaNoKoikokoro » Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:13 pm

Shnooks wrote:Okay. I wasn't saying Shinji "saved the world" or sacrificed himself or anything crazy like that.

I was noting the similarities between Jesus and Shinji in EoE.

I got the impression that, in SEELE's point of veiw, third impact would save the world. Shinji was the one who was used to push forward 3rd impact. Thus, if you took the eyes of SEELE, Shinji would be the world's "savior".

I also saw a resemblance between Gendo, Shinji and Yui as God, The Son, and The Virgin Mary, respectivly. I got the impression Gendo was trying to be a God, by creating a God. Shinji, born from a man who desired to have the powers of God, and from a woman naive to his powers - almost virginal in the aspect that she had desired good, and Gendo had desired something else, though she did not notice - that there was a slight resemblance to The Father, The Son and The Virgin Mary. Not saying Yui was a virgin or nothin' like that.

I also said about him being "crucified" on a "cross" as a sign, because as he was "saving the world" he was being crucified. I believed it a symbolic thing to do. I'm going to assume here that most people, when they look at crosses, think of Jesus Christ - a savior.

Again, i point out that Yui was crucified not Shinji.... Shinji just happened to be inside Yui when it happened.


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