Now for an uncomfortable topic. Double Standard, anyone?

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:49 pm

^Agree entirely.
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Re: Now for an uncomfortable topic. Double Standard, anyone

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Postby Rock-Slash » Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:46 am

CyberXIII wrote:2. Shinji also synced better with Eva-02 than he did with his own Eva.

If Shinji could synch was because Asuka was there, just a side effect, if Shinji could synch with Unit 02 NERV would have make him do compatibility test in ep14.

3. She also ruined things when she let her ego get in the way and she charged forwards recklessly, not to mention the fact that she was showing off instead of stabbing the big red glowing weak points called cores.

She charged forward as Misato ordered, close-quarter combat, she cut it in half and it got silent it doesn't matter if she was showing off she was doing her job, everyone was stunned when the angel separete in two and that moment was the one in wich Shinji should have fired because he was the back up, Misato also showed incompetence by not adapting to the situation, also there wasn't a big bright red core in that moment Israfel had to be greatly injured in its twin form to show his true core.

4. The handle was fine, Asuka just dropped her knife.

oh really? watch this, it shows perfectly well how the chord that attached the knife with the Eva's leg didn't resist the preasure, and Eva equipment is Ritsuko's responsability.

5. Why she did it does not remove the fact that she abandoned him. In a sense, Yui's no better than Gendo.

If Reichu's theory is correct she was going to get killed, and in dead she wouldn't be capable to help Shinji in any way Shinji's outcome could have been a LOT worse if Yui didn't merge herself with the Eva, it was a hard decision not necessarily the best but in that situation there wasn't one in wich everybody win and are happy forever, she choose the one she thought best.

6.I don't think Gendo is the ultimate evil, nor did I ever try to paint him as such. He's cruel, yes, evil, possibly, but there's no such thing as a pure evil character.

Well in the thread you named "Gendo: Ultimately Good or Evil?" you certainly tryed to portray him in a extremely dark shade of grey.

Eva Yojimbo wrote:I think the "men can be feminine and do what women do and women can be masculine and do what men do" has been so repeatedly ingrained in the social consciousness since the women's lib and civil rights movements that these role reversals are much less shocking than is the complete subversion of the hero archetype. Where NGE takes it a step further - to a degree I've never seen in fiction - is the very clear carving-out of the hero form. Meaning that the hero is given clear external conflicts to overcome and the means to overcome it. He's equally given an inner "flaw" he's supposed to conquer and overcome and grow/learn from it. But Anno repeatedly frustrates these expectations, and Shinji's weakening and retreating from it is the source of the backlash. Much more so than the fact that he's male.

^This, seriously do we still live in the sixties? it really annoys me when people try to base their analysis of a work from a Gender role perspective when is obvious that the work goes way deeper than that.

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Postby Alaska Slim » Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:42 am

Synapsid wrote:
Alaska Slim wrote:
Tell me, what exactly is courage?

"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgement that something else is more important..." - Ambrose Redmoon
I was hoping that you would tell me in your own words just what courage is, but if that's your definition then Shinji certanly is courageous.

Not in the supplied context, no, his fear had to do with how he felt of things, hardly ever the actual danger. He never got over that fear until the end, so he fails.

Synapsid wrote:
To have swallowed his self-reservations and stuck around to begin with, what he was doing was far more important than how it made him feel. ...it was the courage to do what is right, and without always needing someone else or the stronger negative feelings to tell you what that is.
He does just that,

He let other people and his stronger negative feelings tell him what to do, without fail, yes, indeed he did. He was guilted into piloting in the first place by seeing Rei, his fear of death overrided his fear of living in episode 4, and it took Touji allowing him to be beaten to finally realize he owed them something, vindication of the trust they were placing in him.

If not for him openly admitting this and making clear of his guilt, I'd think he was a dead ringer for Flashman.

Synapsid wrote:there was no need for him to stay after Sachiel,

One Eva functional, Rei was still injured, no dummy plug... seems to fit the defintion of "need" pretty well, by my own I'd say he seemed critical, and hell, he realized and admitted to that.

Synapsid wrote:it doesn't mater that his motivations weren't "pure",

Never said it was, what is, is that he let said motivations, or lack there of, turn into excuses not to do what was called of him, three times.

Synapsid wrote:it really is absurd to judge what it as being right or wrong on the basis of "negative" feelings that are a constant in everyone.

What makes it valid, is that his ability to pilot, and then not pilot, was always a choice he made. Asuka's later inability to pilot was based on something she at the time couldn't understand, Shinji never had that problem, and was all the willing to try and pass off the responsibiltiy as "no longer his", until said negative feelings guilted him into doing otherwise.

It should not have taken out right death and destruction to get him back on track, he should have been willing to put his feelings aside to do what was called of him, and what later on proved destiny itself was calling him to do, but no, he always had to learn the hard way, and because of it, people suffered.

Synapsid wrote:
Courage is also necessary in another aspect, it takes courage to wish to live, anyone can die
I'm sorry but that idea just strikes me as nothing more than sanctimonious nonsense

Pity, Evangelion itself is full of just that, so you're at a loss here. Accept it, don't, meh, doesn't matter really. :bored:

Synapsid wrote:
Synapsid wrote:Remember he isn’t some sort of professional soldier like Asuka or Rei ,

Neither was Touji, and Rei had only been in the game since 6 months prior, the timeline of Eva has him involved far longer than that.
Touji wasn't but he was eliminated right after becoming one so he isn't relevant,

He knew the pain that piloting an Evangelion would cause, he was likely afraid of it and the responsibility he knew Shinji himself had to bear, but put that aside so that he could get his sister the treatment she needed, and perhaps even to share Shinji's burden.


Synapsid wrote:and Rei was raised in some sort of bizarre manner by Gendo that did involve some sort of indoctrination that removed any real drive of self preservation, and instilled some sort of absolute obedience
.
And by that logic, her "suffering" is irrelevent as well, since she doesn't even know to be sad about it, not until Shinji himself, more or less, brings attention to it.

Synapsid wrote:
... I see 3 possible things you're saying here, thus am unsure how to respond.
Skill sorry, and it certanly doesn't apply to their characters.

I don't think it's a decisive quality in this case, Cyber apparently just wanted to make about it. However, it is there, in the procederal skills Asuka showed when lowered down, her leadership skills in planning the attack on Matariel, and even her own synch ratio, which for a while likely allowed her to better actualize the commands she put into her Eva.

The point is, she devoted herself to it, made it her whole identity, but it was swep out from under her by someone who barely even tried and ran away half the damn time.

Synapsid wrote:
He eventually becomes as conditioned to the Eva as Rei herself, and Asuka didn't enter into combat like he did until far later, but all the same, she did not run away from it.

She in the end is more sympathetic, because when she is unsure of herself, she keeps going...
There's a difference to forcing a child to fire a gun and indoctrinating them from childhood, and I wonder if you've picked up on it, the two things aren't equal at all.

With Rei, again, she had only been at it 6 months longer, by EoE Shinji had been an Eva pilot for nearly a year.

As to Asuka, her training would not have covered the nature of the foe she was facing, she would have been as new to that as Shinji was.

In the end though, this is also beside the point, it largely had little to do with his ability to kill, and everything with if he was needed, which he was, but constantly tried to convince himself he wasn't, and use as an excuse to run away.

Synapsid wrote:And at any rate Asuka herself does breakdown, and not only does she become unable to fight because of her personal issues but she also tries to take her life, I don't see how the results were any different.

She never stopped trying until it was proven she couldn't do anything, and she couldn't help but feel the way she did, which is why her synch ratio sank, it wasn't a choice for her, it was mere cause and affect.

There's no blame to placed on Shinji for how he felt either, that too what out of his hands, but they do not exuse him for the choices he made because of them.

If you wish to blame Asuka for her choice of suicide, well then that's still 1 to 3, and Shinji's choices put far more than his own life at stake.

Synapsid wrote:In fact I'm sure that If Asuka had been a boy the Shonen audience would hate her just as much for falling into uselessness because of emotional problems, and even more in Air for failing to win when it had been built up as some sort of way to a triumphant end (or so it might have seen to them, I'm sure they would have ignored the darker context to Asuka's "die with me" death throws as always, and been even more pissed when their hero fails to deliver)

As Yojimbo said, it was Shinji whom was cast as the hero, it was Shinji whom was given the power, it was Shinji whom hopes itself was riding on. It‘s not about "gender", but who the story and the audience was waiting for to act. Well, in the end, little-miss "I wanna crawl up and die already", acted too little, too late, big shocker there, and guy or girl, it's still all his damn fault, because as the "hero of the story", as the one with the power to make a difference, it was his responsibility more than anyone else’s to have kept the worst from happening.
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Postby Great Genius Shinji-Sama » Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:16 am

As I wrote before:
What I like about Shinji is the fact that he DOES break from the stereotypical, cookie cutter, believe in yourself, love conquers all, badass, kid with superpowers/mecha/etc. cardboard cut out portaganists many western cartoons and other media as well as anime seem to have grown complacent with churning out and is presented as simply a fucked up 14 year old HUMAN BEING. Which IMO is much more easy to relate to sympathize with and really understand then the macho men that the demographic faun over and idolize.


No offense but you just see what you want to see, Shinji was never meant to be Kamina, or Naruto, or any kind of GAR hero, he was meant portray and represent Hideaki Anno's depression that he was going through when he made NGE. You don't sypmathize with him because you expect him to be "the hero". He was a normal civilian, if anything Asuka played more of the "hero" type. I don't sympathize with either one more then the other, they were both fucked up kids thrown into a fucked up scenario thinking they were doing the right thing. And it wasnt till later that they realized what they were really doing; only Shinji had hit rock bottom in his pit of depression. Regardless of each others problems, I say he acted realisticly and he is easier to relate to then say Hiro from Gundam or something. As Shinji portrayed a real person, and not some super badass. And people only lable him as emOH because he breaks away from their ideal fantasy hero of GARness.

EDIT: Also the ONE time he DOES act the way they all expected him to, being cocky and badass, he fails miserably.
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Postby CyberXIII » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:37 am

Alaska Slim wrote:[
Not in the supplied context, no, his fear had to do with how he felt of things, hardly ever the actual danger. He never got over that fear until the end, so he fails.
Synapsid wrote:felt fear over that danger. Besides, in order to fight, he had to get over that fear, if only for a little while. By your definition:Overcoming fear=courage.

Synapsid wrote:
He let other people and his stronger negative feelings tell him what to do, without fail, yes, indeed he did. He was guilted into piloting in the first place by seeing Rei, his fear of death overrided his fear of living in episode 4, and it took Touji allowing him to be beaten to finally realize he owed them something, vindication of the trust they were placing in him.

If not for him openly admitting this and making clear of his guilt, I'd think he was a dead ringer for Flashman.


Not without fail. Shinji could have run away in Ep 19 and that would have been the end of things. He wasn't just guilted the first time, he was manipulated by Gendo. In episode 4, running down recklessly and stabbing Shamshel in the core looked less like fear and more like rage.

What does a time-stopping robot master have to do with this?


Alaska Silm wrote:Never said it was, what is, is that he let said motivations, or lack there of, turn into excuses not to do what was called of him, three times.


And what about all the other times he sucks it up and fights? He didn't want to (who would) but he did what was expected of him.

Alaska Slim wrote:What makes it valid, is that his ability to pilot, and then not pilot, was always a choice he made. Asuka's later inability to pilot was based on something she at the time couldn't understand, Shinji never had that problem, and was all the willing to try and pass off the responsibiltiy as "no longer his", until said negative feelings guilted him into doing otherwise.


What about his rapidly decreasing sync ratio back in ep5? That wasn't a conscious choice.

Alaska Slim wrote:It should not have taken out right death and destruction to get him back on track, he should have been willing to put his feelings aside to do what was called of him, and what later on proved destiny itself was calling him to do, but no, he always had to learn the hard way, and because of it, people suffered.


The only reason Asuka bothers to work so hard is because of her mother's death to begin with. She wasn't willing to put her feelings aside either, or she wouldn't have screwed everyone over when Israfel came calling. She never learned, and because of it, people died.


Alaska Slim wrote:I don't think it's a decisive quality in this case, Cyber apparently just wanted to make about it. However, it is there, in the procederal skills Asuka showed when lowered down, her leadership skills in planning the attack on Matariel, and even her own synch ratio, which for a while likely allowed her to better actualize the commands she put into her Eva.

The point is, she devoted herself to it, made it her whole identity, but it was swep out from under her by someone who barely even tried and ran away half the damn time.


You seem to be ignoring her lack of leadership skills when she got all 3 pilots lost in NERV HQ. Sync ratio increases really only seem to cause more pain after a certain point. You also ignore that the reason it was swept out from under her was because of her own arrogance. Rei tries point-blank to tell her what was wrong, and she still refused to listen. And Shinji most definitely was trying when Zeruel curbstomped everyone, and when Asuka was about to die in that volcano.

Alaska Slim wrote:
She in the end is more sympathetic, because when she is unsure of herself, she keeps going...
There's a difference to forcing a child to fire a gun and indoctrinating them from childhood, and I wonder if you've picked up on it, the two things aren't equal at all.

With Rei, again, she had only been at it 6 months longer, by EoE Shinji had been an Eva pilot for nearly a year.


And Rei had been raised pretty much since she was created with two things in mind: piloting Eva and Gendo's scenario. She had been trained extensively, unlike Shinji.

As to Asuka, her training would not have covered the nature of the foe she was facing, she would have been as new to that as Shinji was.

In the end though, this is also beside the point, it largely had little to do with his ability to kill, and everything with if he was needed, which he was, but constantly tried to convince himself he wasn't, and use as an excuse to run away. [/quote]

Asuka still had some idea of what she was doing. Shinji also knew he was needed, and that's why he bothered to come back in the first place rather than just leave.

Alaska Slim wrote:She never stopped trying until it was proven she couldn't do anything, and she couldn't help but feel the way she did, which is why her synch ratio sank, it wasn't a choice for her, it was mere cause and affect.

There's no blame to placed on Shinji for how he felt either, that too what out of his hands, but they do not exuse him for the choices he made because of them.

If you wish to blame Asuka for her choice of suicide, well then that's still 1 to 3, and Shinji's choices put far more than his own life at stake.


Shinji's sync ratio sank earlier too for a similar reason: depression. He has no control over that either. You can't excuse one without excusing the other. The same goes for their respective choices. Had Asuka killed herself, they would have been short one Eva. That puts more than her own life at stake too.

Alaska Slim wrote:As Yojimbo said, it was Shinji whom was cast as the hero, it was Shinji whom was given the power, it was Shinji whom hopes itself was riding on. It‘s not about "gender", but who the story and the audience was waiting for to act. Well, in the end, little-miss "I wanna crawl up and die already", acted too little, too late, big shocker there, and guy or girl, it's still all his damn fault, because as the "hero of the story", as the one with the power to make a difference, it was his responsibility more than anyone else’s to have kept the worst from happening.


Shinji had no real power throughout the show, that's my point. He isn't a hero, he's an anti-hero. The hope of the world was just as much Shinji's responsibility as it was Asuka's, and he wasn't the one who tried to run away by suicide. Asuka getting slaughtered wasn't Shinji's fault, that was SEELE's fault.

This last point is the real problem here.

Shinji IS NOT A SHOUNEN HERO.

Shinji is not Kamina, Simon, Ichigo, Goku or any other hero of that type. He is not be a badass, he is not cut from that mold, and he is not able to pull awesome stunts out of his ass and save the day. Attempting to judge him by that standard is unfair to him. He is a realistic character (iirc, one that you said was very similar to yourself) and that's why people hate him so much. He is a type I-Anti hero, and isn't a GAR hero like you or any of his other haters want. He does make a difference, yes, but unlike a shounen hero (or even a Mary Sue) the plot is geared against him from the start.
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Postby NemZ » Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:24 am

CyberXIII wrote:The hope of the world was just as much Shinji's responsibility as it was Asuka's, and he wasn't the one who tried to run away by suicide.


LOLWUT?

Rewatch episode 4 and EoE; He tried to off himself twice, a third time if you count not resisting in any fashion when the JSDF came for him, and a fourth time if you count his willing dissolution into LCL. The only pilot who doesn't attempt suicide is Toji... and if he had been given more screentime and development 5/5 isn't an impossibility.

he is not able to pull awesome stunts out of his ass and save the day.


Not only does he do this repeatedly, but it seems to be essentially his job function: "in case of emergency, throw Shinji at the problem". Even if you want to give Yui credit for most of his solo efforts, you can't deny the kid jumped in a volcano and kicked the hell out of zeruel when the plot demanded it.

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Postby Xard » Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:25 am

Heck, NERV technician says in one ep flatout (with Ritsuko agreeing) that Shinji was born for the job, that he was natural talent
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Postby toe mash » Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:17 pm

It seems like this is approaching towards (or already is) a "who's the best pilot?" thing. In any case...

If it indeed matters, I think we have evidence showing Shinji is probably the best pilot, or at least a good one:

1) Sahaquiel fight
2) had highest sync ratio (at one point, at least)
3) only one that really put a dent in Zeruel
4) over-powered unit 02 while it was being controlled by Kaworu, which had some ludicrous sync ratio (yeah I know Kaworu wasn't really trying to finish him off seeing as he only stabbed him in insignificant places)

Shinji is very very far from being a regular shounen hero, and is closer to being a true anti-hero. However, he does have his moments proving he actually isn't useless despite how he portrays himself (and what some others might think of him).

Point is when he isn't focused pitying himself and wants to get the job done, he comes through.

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:59 pm

Great Genius Shinji-Sama wrote:Also the ONE time he DOES act the way they all expected him to, being cocky and badass, he fails miserably.
This is one thing people seem to either never remember or don't really care to recognize the importance of. Shinji DOES try; he does play the hero more than once and every time something terrible happens to him. I've heard the argument of "but if he didn't act something WORSE would've happened"; the problem is that human minds don't think that way - especially not in such a traumatizing situation. All Shinji sees is cause and effect, and he can't tolerate and condone the effect and he equates the cause with himself which leads to him shutting down. As if shutting of himself as the cause would stop anything else bad from happening. He says as much in EoE. Whether this thinking is right or wrong isn't the point; what's important is that it IS what he thinks.
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Postby Alaska Slim » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:04 pm

CyberXIII wrote:
Alaska Slim wrote:Not in the supplied context, no, his fear had to do with how he felt of things, hardly ever the actual danger. He never got over that fear until the end, so he fails.
felt fear over that danger.

That isn't what stopped him though, it was never about the danger, it was what he chose to identify himself with hurting those around him, and not being able to stand up to the guilt he felt because of it, that is what he cowered away from, and continued to do so right up to the end.

CyberXIII wrote:Besides, in order to fight, he had to get over that fear, if only for a little while. By your definition:Overcoming fear=courage.

Not at all, he piloted because he realized what he would be guilty of would be far more horrendous if he didn't pilot, versus piloting itself.

CyberXIII wrote:
He let other people and his stronger negative feelings tell him what to do, without fail, yes, indeed he did. He was guilted into piloting in the first place by seeing Rei, his fear of death overridden his fear of living in episode 4, and it took Touji allowing him to be beaten to finally realize he owed them something, vindication of the trust they were placing in him.

Shinji could have run away in Ep 19 and that would have been the end of things. He wasn't just guilted the first time, he was manipulated by Gendo.

1. And without fail, was guilted into doing the "right thing", instead of merely being there to do it.

2. He was still guilted into doing it, and that is the point. As I had said, I'd give him some credit for being forced so suddenly into it, after that, it was all on him.

CyberXIII wrote:In episode 4, running down recklessly and stabbing Shamshel in the core looked less like fear and more like rage.

Episode 3, and it was misdirected rage over having to be there, which he didn't want at the time, as passive as he tried to make himself.

CyberXIII wrote:What does a time-stopping robot master have to do with this?

:facepalm: Just... meh. My fault I suppose for not keeping it "American".

CyberXIII wrote:And what about all the other times he sucks it up and fights?

What of it? He should have just kept on doing it, instead of making excuses.

CyberXIII wrote:What about his rapidly decreasing sync ratio back in ep5? That wasn't a conscious choice.

Irrelevant, he could still pilot.

CyberXIII wrote:The only reason Asuka bothers to work so hard is because of her mother's death to begin with.

So she at least found a willingness to fight, and we applaud her for it.

CyberXIII wrote:She wasn't willing to put her feelings aside either, or she wouldn't have screwed everyone over when Israfel came calling

She and Shinji were not in any making of a "team" at that point, they had no training for doing so either. Without the plan they later developed, or EVA-01 going berserk, there was little chance that they were going to defeat it anyway. Hell, in retrospect, pretty much them winning nearly any time was wishful thinking, so failure was to be expected.

At the very least they got then, in part, thanks to Asuka, the data they needed to formulate the plan that finally defeated it.

CyberXIII wrote:She never learned, and because of it, people died.

The only time this could be said in any sense is episode 8, and even then, she was left with little recourse herself.

CyberXIII wrote:You seem to be ignoring her lack of leadership skills when she got all 3 pilots lost in NERV HQ.

That was navigational skills, she criticized Shinji for not taking a side which would have decided the matter, and she absolved herself of it with her later actions.

CyberXIII wrote:Sync ratio increases really only seem to cause more pain after a certain point. You also ignore that the reason it was swept out from under her was because of her own arrogance.

Which was well-earned, she had been training to pilot for much of her life, and when she first arrived, and sometime after, she had the highest synch ratio.

CyberXIII wrote:Rei tries point-blank to tell her what was wrong, and she still refused to listen.

She couldn't hear it from someone who embodied her worst fear, it is credulous to expect her to listen to someone like that, nor did she likely have the ability to recognize what Rei was getting at, they understood the Eva from two very different viewpoints

CyberXIII wrote:And Rei had been raised pretty much since she was created with two things in mind: piloting Eva and Gendo's scenario. She had been trained extensively, unlike Shinji.

Wrong, he eventually went through the same training she must have, hell, they never even put her into an Eva until a month before Sachiel's attack, and that was a failure, and as evident of her injuries, so was her first experience with EVA-01.

CyberXIII wrote:
As to Asuka, her training would not have covered the nature of the foe she was facing, she would have been as new to that as Shinji was.

In the end though, this is also beside the point, it largely had little to do with his ability to kill, and everything with if he was needed, which he was, but constantly tried to convince himself he wasn't, and use as an excuse to run away.

Asuka still had some idea of what she was doing. Shinji also knew he was needed, and that's why he bothered to come back in the first place rather than just leave.

He bothered to stay because of Touji and Kensuke's arrival, had they not done so, he would have left.

CyberXIII wrote:Shinji's sync ratio sank earlier too for a similar reason: depression. He has no control over that either. You can't excuse one without excusing the other.

Irrelevant, He NEVER lost the ability to pilot, never, Asuka didn't stop piloting until she physically could not do it anymore, not by any choice of her own.

In short, he chose not to, she was merely forced to, and that why she isn’t at fault, and he is.

CyberXIII wrote:The same goes for their respective choices. Had Asuka killed herself, they would have been short one Eva. That puts more than her own life at stake too.

No, she already lost her ability to pilot, and as she figured, she was replaced, when she attempted to take her life, the only life she was risking was her own.

For all intents and purposes, she should have never been put in an Eva again, that was Misato's decision, and there, she was finally able to re-discover her piloting ability.

CyberXIII wrote:Shinji had no real power throughout the show, that's my point.

Wrong, when push came to shove, it was his Eva that defeated the target, either by blind fury of his own, or his Eva going beserk, so yes, he had the power, and he knew it, he just didn't want to believe it.

CyberXIII wrote:He isn't a hero, he's an anti-hero.

He an anti-hero in action, but he's the "hero" of the story, that is his role, don't confuse the two.

CyberXIII wrote:The hope of the world was just as much Shinji's responsibility as it was Asuka's, and he wasn't the one who tried to run away by suicide.

Asuka fought until she couldn't get the Eva to move anymore, Shinji left just when he couldn't deal with his own guilt. And oh yes, suicide, look at NemZ's post, and it doesn't matter, such a thing is acedemic when you consider in episode 19 that he was trying to leave, and had he been able to do so, not even him changing his mind again would have saved anyone. In EoE, that's exactly what did happen, he was too f*cking late.

CyberXIII wrote:Asuka getting slaughtered wasn't Shinji's fault, that was SEELE's fault.

And his fault for not acting sooner.

CyberXIII wrote:Shinji IS NOT A SHOUNEN HERO.

He is the hero, he just chooses to skirt his responsibilities as one.

CyberXIII wrote:Shinji is not Kamina, Simon, Ichigo, Goku or any other hero of that type. He is not be a badass, he is not cut from that mold,

But he does have the power to bring about a "miracle" when he cares enough, that didn't change, as pessimistic as the universe is, him + Eva near always equaled that the "bad guy" was going down.

CyberXIII wrote:and he is not able to pull awesome stunts out of his ass and save the day.

Episode 19, did just that, episode 16, did just that, episode 11, did just that, episode 10, did just that, episode 8, did just that (along with Asuka), episode 3, did just that, episode 1, did just that.

He has the power to affect chance, that was one of his revelations in instrumentality, that he has power, and he needn't be so afraid of that. If you wish to understand further, I suggest you read here.

CyberXIII wrote:but unlike a shounen hero (or even a Mary Sue) the plot is geared against him from the start.

No, the plot is never geared against him, he's geared against himself, and that is the problem, why he is that way. All the same, his ability to affect change is ever present, and the fact he doesn't recognize it is what pisses people off and what makes them believe that, if switched in, they could do a far better job of it.

Now next time, please edit your message better, that was a real headache to sort through.
Last edited by Alaska Slim on Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Great Genius Shinji-Sama » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:14 pm

:thehand: whatever I give up. :whiteflag: Shinji is just whiny Emoh beyotch, happy now? :smirk:
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Re: Now for an uncomfortable topic. Double Standard, anyone

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Postby DatDude » Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:06 pm

CyberXIII wrote:I've seen this touched on briefly in two other threads, but never really seen this talked about.

This applies to both the series and audience perception.

(Warning, rage-filled rant coming.:soapbox: )

Shinji whines constantly, and is generally seen as an angsty, useless wimp. That is a fact. Now then, just because he seems to be one doesn't mean he is one. In fact, he has the best track record against the Angels, puts up with Asuka, and gets nothing but flak for it. He catches hell constantly, and understandably whines about it. This has resulted in people labeling him an e.m.o teen, some of whom haven't even watched NGE.

Asuka whines just as much as he does (with good reason, but that's not the point), and pretty much acts like a caustic, rancid c*nt. And yet, she gets (I can't stress this enough with text)far, far, far more sympathizers than Shinji does.

WHY?

It can't be her fighting skills. Bardiel floored her so badly Anno couldn't be bothered to show her getting beaten. She only beat Gaghiel with Shinji's help. She's the reason they didn't kill Israfel the first time, Zeruel slaughtered her, and Arael raped her soul.

Is it simply because she's a girl? Are dudes not allowed to feel sadness about their lot in life? If Shinji was a girl, would he be more sympathetic? (Reichu mentioned this other one, so I won't go there. :deadhorse: )

The point I'm trying to make here is this: how badly did the Double Standard affect NGE, and/or your perception of it?


Well Shinji was deigned to be everything the stereo type mecha anime hero isn't. Take the likes of hiro yui and reveres him and you get Shinji.

Seeing as stereo type mecha anime heros for the msot part sell I can see why people would have issue with Shinji. Asuka however is a hottie jailbait red head so she get sympathy.
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Postby GAP » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:05 pm

Asuka gets sympathy because she is hot? That is a double standard.
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Re: Now for an uncomfortable topic. Double Standard, anyone

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Postby Alaska Slim » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:09 pm

DatDude wrote:Well Shinji was deigned to be everything the stereo type mecha anime hero isn't. Take the likes of hiro yui and reveres him and you get Shinji.

Just to be clear, Heero Yuy is also an anti-hero, just the homocidal maniac variety, he's like The Punisher, and considering his name, quite literally liabel for this.

He does however learn to move on from it, where Shinji in his own camp... it's rather debatable, and even if he does, it may very well be too late.

DatDude wrote:Seeing as stereo type mecha anime heros for the msot part sell I can see why people would have issue with Shinji. Asuka however is a hottie jailbait red head so she get sympathy.

It's far more than that, and we've collectivly listed several things to that end. :smokin:
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Re: Now for an uncomfortable topic. Double Standard, anyone

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Postby child of Lilith » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:21 pm

Alaska Slim wrote:It's far more than that, and we've collectivly listed several things to that end. :smokin:


Yes there is more to it then just gender, but I’d have to say gender plays a significant part in peoples dislike of Shinji.

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Postby DatDude » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:43 pm

True their is the fact that he's a wuss that plays chello and does house work.

Face it people their are x y z traits we see in the average anime hero because thats what sells. Shinji contrasts with all that.

Sorry folks.
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Postby Alaska Slim » Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:00 pm

DatDude wrote:True their is the fact that he's a wuss that plays chello and does house work.

That's glazing over a bit much, it's that he has a responsisbility as the hero of the story to perform, and both the story and the audience are forced to wait on him twice for this.

It isn't just that "Oh I'm not enjoying what I do while making sarcastic/badass one liners", but that he gets so caught up in his own problems that he consistently fails to take notice of those of the world and the other characters around him, and it always takes an utmost extreme for him to finally do so, and then go do the right thing, if he does it at all. :smokin:
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Postby NemZ » Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:32 pm

Alaska Slim wrote:twice


He fails to rise to the occasion a lot more often than that...

ep1: no, screw you and your robot
ep4: run away + suicide attempt
ep6: tells Rei he doesn't want to pilot again
ep18: can't punch toji unless he asks for it
ep19: you can't fire me, I quit!
EoE: attempt #2 and just makes a burden of himself
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Postby GAP » Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:13 am

Great Genius Shinji-Sama wrote::thehand: whatever I give up. :whiteflag: Shinji is just whiny Emoh beyotch, happy now? :smirk:


I don't know if that will be enough.
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Postby Mongoosedog » Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:20 pm

so much text....i didn't read past the 3rd post but anyway.

i find nothing wrong with Shinji's whining, i think most of it is completely justified. how the hell would you expect a 14 year old boy to act in real life if his father that abandoned him called him for the sole purpose of fighting horrible aliens in a giant robot. for those who think Shinji has no balls, would you really do any better in the same situation? Shinji deserves way more sympathy than he gets.
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