@Soul Fire: Just to clarify, I was not saying you're trying to put down other ships or discussing a matter of preference... I'm simply saying that each of us perceives scenes/elements/relationships in the series differently, so what appears obvious to you may not appear as obvious to another person here and viceversa... For example, one person might think the pivotal relationship for Shinji was with Asuka, another one might think it was Kaworu, or Rei, or Misato, all based on different perceptions and interpretations - IMO. ;)

I hope that makes sense.

@GGSS: Open ending?

@Soul Fire: Just to clarify, I was not saying you're trying to put down other ships or discussing a matter of preference... I'm simply saying that each of us perceives scenes/elements/relationships in the series differently, so what appears obvious to you may not appear as obvious to another person here and viceversa... For example, one person might think the pivotal relationship for Shinji was with Asuka, another one might think it was Kaworu, or Rei, or Misato, all based on different perceptions and interpretations - IMO.

I hope that makes sense.

Ye I understand now. I see what you mean.

Soul Fire wrote:Ye I understand now. I see what you mean.

I'm glad we've reached an understanding!
(How very... Evangelion-ish! )

I'm really curious as to what Director Anno might have in store for us... I wonder if he's even decided anything concrete about the ending yet!

I'm sure it'll be trollerific.

Trollerific. I gag at the thought of that word but can't stop laughing at it. So what if it turns out to be ShinjixKaworu again?

Er... Again??

Teague wrote:Welll...it might just be the subs I saw, but I got the impression that Asuka decided to back off in regards to Shinji after the elavator scene with Rei...hence her decision not to go to the party...

That is a good point. IMO, Asuka wouldn't take the initiative in trying for Shinji one more time, because that would feel like crawling back. But the hopeless S/A shippers here root for Shinji taking the first step in approaching Asuka. Different thing.

carla wrote:@saltyjoe & user-iel-- don't hit me for being contrary but i think i wouldn't like Asuka losing her memories, even with the potential for S/A. kinda feels like cheating.

I actually wrote that i would have her having only partial memories about what happened inside Unit-03, but still have them. If she still has her traumatic background, i could totally see the events of Kyoko hanging herself and her getting crushed in Eva-01's jaws being mixed up in her head. That would make for quite the scene, IMHO.

Lucretius wrote:The song specifically mentions being friends forever, so...no.

Wouldn't be the first time that Anno perverts something seemingly simplistic into something different.

LiLi wrote::EDIT: Theoretically, Kaworu should be expected to have a "pivotal" role of some kind, given all the foreshadowing? (i.e. I think it's about time it delivers... )

And you hope that "pivotal role" means getting romantically involved with Shinji? Fangirl:P.

In all honesty, i think Kaworu and Shinji will have powerful (though probably brief) interaction in the coming films, and Shinji will probably be attracted to Tabbi-kun (i mean, on the surface he is a prettier Jesus), but i also think that it will be Kaworu who will deliver the most crushing blow Shinji will have to face.

SaltyJoe wrote:If she still has her traumatic background, i could totally see the events of Kyoko hanging herself and her getting crushed in Eva-01's jaws being mixed up in her head.

Ouch!

Personally, I'm not sure Kyoko still features in Asuka's background at all though...

LiLi wrote:And you hope that "pivotal role" means getting romantically involved with Shinji? Fangirl:P.

Not just that - I'm hoping for something more complex... but it sure wouldn't hurt (me) were it to entail some interesting 'romantic' interaction between the two. However, for the general audience and purpose, I typed "of some kind" - I was genuinely hoping for some kind of input about how others would include Kaworu's role in the count. ;)

Still, S/Tabby seems to have some Troll value left, so it would probably amuse Director Anno to no end to see the reactions...

In all honesty, i think Kaworu and Shinji will have powerful (though probably brief) interaction in the coming films, and Shinji will probably be attracted to Tabbi-kun (i mean, on the surface he is a prettier Jesus), but i also think that it will be Kaworu who will deliver the most crushing blow Shinji will have to face.

I could see that happening, but I'm not too sure about it since it would be basically a repeat of the NGE scheme, wouldn't it?

Hmmm.
Seems like we all want to factor Kaworu into the question. So I want to select EMK, who will try to seduce Shiji. Of course not a few of us expect this.
To date Kaworu has speared shogoki, but I wonder if he damaged one core, and not the other. That is, separate Rei and Shiji with violence. Asuka will be back, but will he use violence to return her to the downward spiral? The worst and squickest way to accomplish this turn of plot would probably have Kaworu take Arael's place and rape her, hiding his role until later. Can Shinji still reach out to Asuka when she can't reciprocate? Could that become a test or a lesson? In the past it has been clear Kaworu's use of moral logic can be as evil or as good as any lillin. This could be subverted from [please don't kill me] original Star Trek ep. "The Empath" [/please don't kill me], and I consider that to be an inspiration for the setting in NGE 25/26 HIP.
Trying to make it a little darker in here for you, LiLi.

@LiLi, re: Shinji/suzuhara-chan-- oook, i'm suddenly getting harry potter-shipping vibes from that paragraph... haha but i'm just strange. also, i didn't watch utena, so i wouldn't know about that. but it did give off seriously shoujo vibes right there.


synapsid said: "she may see Bardiel incident as her “friends” having abandoned or hurt her (That’s sadly ironic in that she was finally talking about opening herself up to others)"
i say: YES. THIS.


and @synapsid, re: angels being human: yes, i agree they were... quite close to "human" by the end, i was just saying that we can't chalk up to Shinji the fact that he killed them without any regret and say it's proof that he has serial killer instincts because at the time he was killing them, he didn't know they were so human-like. we sort of had hints of that truth, but as the audience we're entitled to a wider view of the situation than Shinji is. he just thought he was killing big alien things that wanted to destroy the earth. of course when he found out that it wasn't as black-or-white he was quite shaken by it, but i think it's unfair to use that as a basis to call him serial-killer-ish when it was only serial-killer-ish in retrospect.

SaltyJoe wrote:That is a good point. IMO, Asuka wouldn't take the initiative in trying for Shinji one more time, because that would feel like crawling back. But the hopeless S/A shippers here root for Shinji taking the first step in approaching Asuka. Different thing.

actually... no. well, i wouldn't be opposed to Shinji taking the first step (especially if it turns out Asuka comes back from bardiel being all kinds of messed up and hating him for almost killing her). but i could still see Asuka coming back and giving it a try, if she's somehow not traumatized and pre-disposed against Shinji for the bardiel incident.

i think she could still do it without it being "crawling back" mainly because her relationship with Rei in rebuild is a lot less... hateful, and a lot more of a rivalry. she considers her a rival because:

a) she believes Rei was chosen because she's "the favorite" and
b) the whole Shinji deal.

there's still the "doll" remark, but it didn't seem as emphasized on as it was in the original series, or at least that's how it felt to me. besides, Asuka's "doll" concept seems to be given a whole different angle.

anyway, if Asuka vs. Rei is taken as more of a rivalry than outright hate, there's always the possibility that she may be thinking "ok, i'll let her have her moment now, but just wait, i'll come up with a plan that will be 10 times better than hers! baka-shinji won't know what hit him." i think this also fits with her development so far in rebuild-- NGE Asuka would consider it "crawling back" because as much as she would love to upstage wondergirl, she doesn't allow herself to like Shinji either. rebuild Asuka, on the other hand, had already started to believe that maybe being with other people isn't so bad (which probably had a lot to do with Shinji anyway). so i think it's one angle that could be taken.

of course, this is all shot to hell if she comes back from bardiel pissed off at Shinji and the world and swearing that she doesn't need anybody-- which is likely, i think-- but in that case i would hope for a reconciliation scenario (whether initiated by Shinji, Asuka or just the circumstances).

SaltyJoe wrote:If she still has her traumatic background, i could totally see the events of Kyoko hanging herself and her getting crushed in Eva-01's jaws being mixed up in her head. That would make for quite the scene, IMHO.

oooohh, i like that. very interesting idea. would make for a lot of angst, that's for certain. and it wouldn't make things too easy for S/A either, so i'm fine with that. very interesting... this is all if the kyoko thing happened at all, of course. (i'm really, really curious about that now. even more than during the mari-in-eva-02 discussion in... some other thread?).


also, re: kaworu-- i think we can expect more trolling from anno there. he obviously enjoys creating opportunities for fanwankery. kaworu wouldn't be kaworu if he was... normal, and it's his... abnormality (i mean in terms of what he is and what that means to Shinji) what makes him perfect as a device to mess with Shinji's mind some more. even if he's not an angel, he's still with SEELE and he seems to be very entwined with SEELE's plot, so i think he'll still be up in that role.

i want to see if we'll get some sort of interaction between kaworu and Asuka, myself. their appearances were cut so cleanly in NGE, and i thought there was a lot of potential there to make things worse-- not only in how their interaction relates to Shinji/Asuka (those are some dark, daaaark ideas you've got there, user-iel) but just what it might do to Asuka's psyche in general. bardiel can get her pissed off at the world, but kaworu could be the drop that broke the camel's back here. not sure if anno's going for this since Asuka seemed less messed up initially in rebuild than she was in NGE, but it could be a golden opportunity.[/quote]

LiLi wrote:@GGSS: Open ending?

I hope so, it seems far more fitting that Anno give us something with more than one path rather than spoon feeding us sugar. For what it’s worth I do think that most of the things we’re shown in EVA aren’t limited to simple single answer interpretations and that includes Shinji’s relations of course...what we see is really up to what angle we’re looking at it from.

SaltyJoe wrote: That is a good point. IMO, Asuka wouldn't take the initiative in trying for Shinji one more time, because that would feel like crawling back. But the hopeless S/A shippers here root for Shinji taking the first step in approaching Asuka. Different thing.

That certainly sounds like her, in some ways that might parallel Asuka’s vague relation with Shin-chan during the action and her later disillusionment with him...Although it probably might come out darker this time, Asuka was more open with her friends and did seem to have an infatuation with Shin-chan but after being “betrayed” I’m sure she’ll never let them past her barriers now. If a crushed Shinji does turn to her expecting some sort of solace I’m sure she won’t hesitate to tell him how much she hates him and everyone in the world before chasing him away.

In all honesty, i think Kaworu and Shinji will have powerful (though probably brief) interaction in the coming films, and Shinji will probably be attracted to Tabbi-kun (i mean, on the surface he is a prettier Jesus), but i also think that it will be Kaworu who will deliver the most crushing blow Shinji will have to face.
… Shinji will probably be attracted to Tabbi-kun (i mean, on the surface he is a prettier Jesus), but i also think that it will be Kaworu who will deliver the most crushing blow Shinji will have to face.

Ah, well Kaworu’s interaction marked a key turning for Shin the first time around, and from all of Kaworu’s talk of meeting Shinji it does really look like their connection is being built up. Although I don’t think the exact nature is the same Kaworu’s motivations were more vague last time around but now he keeps talking about meeting Shinji and helping him find happiness, so it’s possible he might not be going out to crush Shinji this time around...
Besides I’m sure that loosing what he has left (Rei) and then learning that Asuka’s alive but she hates him and blames him for what happened might do a good enough job at breaking Shinji. It’s already rather apparent by the end of 2.0 that he really is coming apart and jumping for a lifeline, taking away his lifeline and denying him a new one should be more than enough to finish breaking his eggshell.
Uh, and on a tangent I don’t quite think that Kaworu fits neatly into a Jesus role, there are parallels of course, certainly as far as sacrifice and resurrection go...But EVA things don’t work like how their outer appearance implies, the messiah role is really Shinji’s part even if he doesn’t play it in a normal way. I would say that as far as ultimate roles go Kaworu is actually Judas, after all his betrayal was needed for the Messaiah to move forward and be crucified.

I was genuinely hoping for some kind of input about how others would include Kaworu's role in the count.

Um, well I might be wrong, but I do see some echoes from the manga (Kaworu’s plugsuit wouldn’t be the least of them) so some sort of interaction along that vein might be possible (I know that clingy Shinji wouldn’t really act like tsundere manga Shin, but if everyone he cares about ends up hurt and he sees himself at fault for that then he might try and push away any affection, even if it’s something he wants).

Still, S/Tabby seems to have some Troll value left, so it would probably amuse Director Anno to no end to see the reactions...

I still think that if Shinji is recovered in Q it might be a good place to set up their meeting: Kaworu could act out Rei’s role from the manga and be the one to call Shin back from the eva (Shinji can then drop on to Kaworu while naked, and do one of his little screams). I suppose it could allow Khara’s obligatory comic relief and fanservice without forcing the story of its path. ..
Um and isn’t it a bit confusing to refer to Kaworu as Tabby (Tabby-chan kind of happens to be a fan name for one of Kaworu’s splinters) unless if we’re going to nickname them Tabby/Puppy from now on?

User-iel wrote:Hmmm.
Seems like we all want to factor Kaworu into the question. So I want to select EMK, who will try to seduce Shiji. Of course not a few of us expect this.

I choose you, EMK! ;)

Well, Kaworu's seduction attack in NGE did work much better in terms of penetrating Shinji's AT Field than the physical assaults attempted by those other clumsy Angels...

To date Kaworu has speared shogoki, but I wonder if he damaged one core, and not the other. That is, separate Rei and Shiji with violence.

That seems a possibility... However, doesn't the trailer for Q say that Eva 01 is freezed with Rei and Shinji still trapped inside? Maybe only one of them will be able to come back from Eva 01?

The worst and squickest way to accomplish this turn of plot would probably have Kaworu take Arael's place and rape her, hiding his role until later.

...

...You don't mean mind-rape here, or do you?

But, as... interesting as the idea is, what would Kaworu gain from doing that? Would he do that to ensure Asuka wouldn't pursue Shinji anymore due to the trauma? But wouldn't it entail too large a risk of compromising his relationship with Shinji, should the secret come out?


I do wonder if Kaworu would try to stand in the way of A/S or R/S... Maybe if Shinji and Kaworu do get to interact, Kaworu will wait until the worst possible moment to launch his attack on Shinji's psyche? Or maybe this time around he's really working for Shinji's happiness...

This could be subverted from [please don't kill me] original Star Trek ep. "The Empath" [/please don't kill me], and I consider that to be an inspiration for the setting in NGE 25/26 HIP.

I think I need to rewatch that episode now...

Trying to make it a little darker in here for you, LiLi.

Someone get me a light!! ;) (You ever thought about writing shoujo manga? You know, the really dark, disturbing type that makes the cast of Eva seem almost well-adjusted? I think you could pull it off nicely... )

@Carla: I also wanted to see Kaworu interact with Asuka - even though since the premises are different this time around it may not be as much fun as in the NGE timeline... Then again, if Hideaki Anno really decides to keep following the ATE CD Drama script, maybe we can hope... ;)

Synapsid wrote:Asuka was more open with her friends and did seem to have an infatuation with Shin-chan but after being “betrayed” I’m sure she’ll never let them past her barriers now. If a crushed Shinji does turn to her expecting some sort of solace I’m sure she won’t hesitate to tell him how much she hates him and everyone in the world before chasing him away.

Somehow, I think if the Bardiel incident didn't leave any emotional scars crippling her ability to open up to others and enjoy life, a lot of the powerful irony from that whole sequence would be lost (I'm sorry Asuka... )

but now he keeps talking about meeting Shinji and helping him find happiness, so it’s possible he might not be going out to crush Shinji this time around... Besides I’m sure that loosing what he has left (Rei) and then learning that Asuka’s alive but she hates him and blames him for what happened might do a good enough job at breaking Shinji.

I would say that as far as ultimate roles go Kaworu is actually Judas, after all his betrayal was needed for the Messaiah to move forward and be crucified.

This makes sense...

I still think that if Shinji is recovered in Q it might be a good place to set up their meeting: Kaworu could act out Rei’s role from the manga and be the one to call Shin back from the eva (Shinji can then drop on to Kaworu while naked, and do one of his little screams). I suppose it could allow Khara’s obligatory comic relief and fanservice without forcing the story of its path. ..

I could totally see Khara pulling that one...

unless if we’re going to nickname them Tabby/Puppy from now on?

That's actually kind of cute...

I have no idea if this is offtopic or if anyone has mentioned this before, but Asuka coming back in 3.0 leaves her a chance to deliver a few lines that were replaced with the infamous "Kimochi Warui" line.

"I'd never want to be killed by you of all men, absolutely not!" or was it, "I'll never let you kill me."

Either way, I thought it was funny that the situation of Asuka returning in 3.0 leaves opportunities of her being able to say the "original" ending lines of EoE, before they were of course changed to Kimochi Warui.

Belated reply, wheee.

With the series/EoE, Misato did come onto Shinji after Kaji's death and Rei 2's death but.... By the time EoE rolls around, Asuka is the one Shinji is turning to. Kaworu's dead, while both Rei and Misato terrify him at that point. I'd say that's enough to speak for itself.

Also, Rei 2's lines of "Do I want to become one with Ikari-kun? ...No." can be taken as a reference to Instrumentality, considering what we see in EoE.

Lili: We already have an open ending with EoE (EoTV too considering some out there don't believe EoTV and EoE are different ways of telling the same ending), so something more concrete this time around would be nice (though EoE's ending fit beautifully given what happened).

Wonderboy: That'd be amusing if Asuka in 3.0 gets a chance to say that. I wouldn't mind it one bit.

Personally I think if Shinji was to romantically "end up with" anyone in either the original or Rebuild continuity, it'd be Asuka. I'll have to watch 2.0 again to get a better grasp on things, as I'm surely influenced a lot by the events of the original series and their dynamic as portrayed in that, but...

I can't imagine Shinji discovering that Rei is one of many near-identical clones engineered from his mother and Lilith and then not being horribly freaked out by the whole thing; a sort of siblingesque relationship (at least until that discovery) I could see, but...ehh. Even ignoring that issue, there's Rei's evident complete lack of knowledge of human emotions. Plus, Shinji and Rei's personalities seem almost too compatible in their soft frailness...I'm not entirely sure how to explain it, but it just doesn't seem to quite fit, in my mind. Rei's own interest in Shinji seems to lean more towards wanting to reconcile his relationship with his father, than an attempt at his affections.

And of course in Rebuild there's also the possibility of Mari to throw a new wrench into things, but I'm not thinking too hard about that yet since we still barely know her, and Shinji's barely met her as well. (In addition to the issue of her possibly being a spy.)

As for the issue that's been brought up a few times here about Asuka blaming Shinji for what happened to her during the Unit 03 disaster, that just doesn't seem like a realistic scenario to me without relying on some sort of poor/forced writing in that direction, with Shinji somehow finding himself incapable of finding the words to tell her that there was nothing he could have done. I'm reminded of some particularly frustrating scenes in a few episodes of 24 (the television series, not the Eva episode) in which a major misunderstanding or disaster would have been easily averted if it weren't for blatantly forced writing in that direction to make a character unrealistically speechless at the critical moment to prevent it.

Assuming hopefully that Asuka wasn't contaminated by Bardiel to the point of either insanity or the need for her to be killed, I could potentially even imagine Shinji's response to the dummy system's brutal beating as a means for her to realize, if nothing else, that he at least somewhat cares about her existence.

Of course it's unlikely that anything is going to progress into a full-on relationship, both due to the limited length of the movies and due to this being Evangelion, but...I think one of the things that's kept me interested in Eva is just the desire to see some of its characters find some amount of happiness and understanding of each other, considering how often the chances of it get pulled out from under them in the series. I do think that Asuka and Shinji make an adorable pair, but a decent familial and/or friend relationship would probably be just as good from the perspective of the characters' issues.

(...and love can eventually come out of a close friendship, too, of course ;) )

(no homo)

esselfortium wrote:I do think that Asuka and Shinji make an adorable pair, but a decent familial and/or friend relationship would probably be just as good from the perspective of the characters' issues.

If Rebuild at least ends up affirming their friendship instead of FINALLY solidifying them as a couple, I'd be happy.

Also: excellent points.

Thanks! :)

I think there's a few things I mentioned in there that I could have clarified a bit better, but I figure I've already spent more than enough time writing that post, so I'll just leave it be for now unless someone actually brings up any questions about it :P

Not that Iike the idea, but does anyone else see the possability that Asuka could take Kaworu's place in the assault on terminal dogma? I'm just concerned about this whole "contamination" angle. What if Asuka comes back, "forgives" Shinji, grows closer to him, and then when her angel infection takes over, Shinji is forced to kill her. It would be the most gut-wrenching plot twist ever, and would push Shinji into a mental state much like he was in EoE.

Ugh, that sounds depressingly plausible.

Sailor Star Dust wrote:With the series/EoE, Misato did come onto Shinji after Kaji's death and Rei 2's death but.... By the time EoE rolls around, Asuka is the one Shinji is turning to. Kaworu's dead, while both Rei and Misato terrify him at that point. I'd say that's enough to speak for itself.

I'm sorry, would you mind elaborating on this? I'm not sure I see your point.

It sounds to me like Shinji simply turned to Asuka because she was the only option left other than being alone, which terrifies him - which is exactly what angered her in the first place, IIRC.

Also, Rei 2's lines of "Do I want to become one with Ikari-kun? ...No." can be taken as a reference to Instrumentality, considering what we see in EoE.

Is that the dub translation of those lines? Because I remember it differently in Japanese... IIRC she recognised that her heart wanted to be one with Shinji and said "Dame!" (No!) because she knew it would lead to the assimilation of the Eva 01 on the angel's part => she chose to self destruct. That's how I always read that scene, at least...

Also, esp. considering Rei II hasn't merged with Lilith yet, I think the "heart wanting to become one with _" line seemed a rather obvious allusion to (being in) love (though Rei probably can't put a name on the feeling - yet again - she describes it perfectly). *cue RoE elevator scene xD*

Finally, I think Instrumentality would have been, if anything, a consequence of Rei's wanting to become one with Shinji of all people, rather than the other way around...

Open Ending: Oh, I'm not too deadly set on that one either - personally I would love to see a pairing or two of my liking, even though pairing-wise, demanding for Shinji to be all set up for forever love at the tender age of 14 might be a bit too much? I just thought the open ending might have its merits (and much trolling potential).