You think there's never going to be Asuka/Shinji ?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Postby SaltyJoe » Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:39 am

What i'm actually hoping for, if Asuka gets any character development in the following installment(s), is that she manages to sort out most of her problems wihout any intervention from Shinji.

Think about: a female character starting out semi-tsundereish, and after a path of trials and tribulations, she evolves into a stronger person on her own without pining for the main characters schlong. It would be an anime first.

Mr. Tines wrote:From where we are at the moment, it looks like we're more likely to have some Asuka/Kaworu action


You know, if that contamination thing really comes into play, it is possible that Asuka will be attracted to Kaworu on an almost instinctual level.


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Postby The Goose » Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:01 am

Shinji's already realizing Rei=same scent as his mother, so you lost me.


What! Are you telling me you've never been reminded of your mother when you've smelled someone? :toothy:

Its true that Shinji has recognized that there is some connection between Rei and his mom, but that still doesn't give any insight to how he feels toward Rei. Just because someone notices a similarity between two people doesn't mean that they have the same feelings towards both of them.

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Postby DEMOLITION D+ » Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:09 am

The Goose wrote:
Shinji's already realizing Rei=same scent as his mother, so you lost me.


What! Are you telling me you've never been reminded of your mother when you've smelled someone? :toothy:
Its true that Shinji has recognized that there is some connection between Rei and his mom, but that still doesn't give any insight to how he feels toward Rei. Just because someone notices a similarity between two people doesn't mean that they have the same feelings towards both of them.



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Postby Synapsid » Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:32 am

Mr. Tines wrote:Unless and until whatever her deep dark secret turns out to be ends up spoiling things, I'm still quietly hoping for Shinji/Mari. Just because :devil:

Is there any reason in particular? Sakamoto/Ogata sounds interesting but so far Mari’s done nothing more than (acidentaly) pin Wanko-kun and make him whimper :shinji_blush:
The Goose wrote:Its different from EOE where Shinji says that he wants to be with Asuka forever. Its simple to see that he likes her in a romantic sense. In Rebuild, however, Shinji just calls Asuka a friend. Thats way different than what he said in EOE.
I know that Shinji cares about Rei, but there hasn't been any hint to how he cares about her. Does he like her as a friend or something more?
Given the relative position in the series it isn’t really different at all, to be entirely accurate Shinji didn’t throw himself at Asuka till he had lost everyone else,(as late as 24 he really seemed to just see her as an estranged friend) that’s one of the things that seemed to infuriate Asuka during Preinst. But Shinji relations with both Rei and Asuka seem to be hard to just define as friends or something more, he certainly seems to show interest in both of them, and loose his grasp upon losing them...I’d say it’s closer to familial bonds with a element of attraction thrown in.
The Goose wrote: What! Are you telling me you've never been reminded of your mother when you've smelled someone? :toothy:
but in this case along with the talk of replacements it’s an element of foreshadowing ,Shinji's Odeipus really falls alongside ReiII's transient status, and her role as a deliberately designed icon, now that they seem to have fully developed their relation it’s highly unlikely that Anno will let them be happy(asides from being trapped in an EVA condensate, and I don’t know how happy they’ll be), or take the simple way in Shinji’s relations...
Kaname Langley wrote: Gendo/Shinji i mean Like father and son.
Really? I can’t see any sort of bond between them outside of something from a Kadamon fic. Gendo will never show affection and will keep pushing Shin away because of his identification with him and his obsession with Yui. He seems absolutely heartless as far as the emotional well being of his son goes, (even if he’s intentionally pushing him away)… So the only way I could see him letting puppyboy in would be if he identified Shinji closely enough with Yui that he’d see her as a facet of her(something Rei already does), the implications of that probably aren’t pleasant, and since Shinji seems to come to hate Gendo I doubt that he’d want to play Rei’s role in that respect.
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Postby MugwumpHasNoLiver » Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:39 am

SaltyJoe wrote:Think about: a female character starting out semi-tsundereish, and after a path of trials and tribulations, she evolves into a stronger person on her own without pining for the main characters schlong. It would be an anime first.


I'm hoping for this, now. But I don't know how likely it'll be now with Asuka being as frail as she is. I'm betting her origins are a bit different and am still hoping for a backstory dump in Q.
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Postby carla » Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:43 am

Synapsid wrote:Is there any reason in particular? Sakamoto/Ogata sounds interesting but so far Mari’s done nothing more than (acidentaly) pin Wanko-kun and make him whimper :shinji_blush:<


Shinji/mari would be hot because anything with mari in it would be hot, IMO ;) and basically because it would be hilarious that every freakin' female in the show is at least somewhat attracted to this spineless little boy who is pretty much terrified of girls in general :lol: (well, no, i guess maya's debatable... and there isn't much mentioned about ritsuko... although if you ask me, it makes sense that she also would...)

Synapsid wrote:Given the relative position in the series it isn’t really different at all, to be entirely accurate Shinji didn’t throw himself at Asuka till he had lost everyone else,(as late as 24 he really seemed to just see her as an estranged friend) that’s one of the things that seemed to infuriate Asuka during Preinst.


it is sort of different, though: whether he considers Asuka just a friend or there's something else there in rebuild, "losing" Asuka is probably one of the things that pushed him over the edge when Rei was similarly threatened. that... didn't really happen in NGE at all. in NGE he did fail Asuka, but he probably blames himself just as much as he blames his father-- which convinces him that he's useless instead of giving him a will to fight harder. in rebuild he pretty much pins the blame squarely on gendo, the fact that he "killed" Asuka is not a deterrent, but an incentive-- i.e. "i won't let someone i care about be taken from me that easily again!"

also, he was a lot more confused by Rei in NGE. thus, as Rei II dies saying "i can be replaced," he doesn't really know what she means and it throws him for a loop. he doesn't agree, but he doesn't know what to say to contradict her. in rebuild, he's a lot more clueless about Rei's "weirdness," i think. he thinks she's just a regular girl-- albeit one that has a close bond with his father, and her odd comments (comparing herself to the creatures in the aquarium, for instance) intrigue him more than confuse him. as such, when she says she can be replaced in rebuild, his reaction is not "what do you mean? i don't understand!" but "NO, YOU CAN'T BE REPLACED. I SAVE YOU NAO."

anyway, my point was, even though it feels the point where Shinji turns to Asuka hasn't come yet if we roughly base a timeline on the original story, if the background changes we can't expect things to stay the same. maybe it won't happen.

then again, maybe it will... i think it all depends on the way things develop when Shinji finds out the truth about Rei. remember, right now he's still pretty clueless. however with the foreshadowing, i'd say it's a safe bet that he will find out eventually and how he takes the shocking news will determine whether he'll take refuge on Asuka like he did in EoE or not.

that's why i like the angel contamination and/or the "i blame you for almost killing me" ideas-- at least that way it's all up to Shinji and Asuka themselves, it doesn't depend on Rei.

BTW, saltyjoe: i agree. i really hope to see Asuka deal with her issues on her own-- none of that insta-magic "i found my mom, so everything's alright now!" thing. AND keeping her issues separate from Shinji, if possible. however, that doesn't invalidate the idea that they may still end up together at all (hey, just because she's tsundereish doesn't mean she should end up alone), it just means that we wouldn't have the spectre of co-dependence and unhealthy "need" casting shadows if it does end with a Shinji/Asuka pairing ;)

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Postby Mr. Tines » Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:09 pm

Synapsid wrote:Is there any reason in particular?
Because it would give the finger to both traditional factions of S/A and S/R.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:32 pm

Modly comment: Leave the topic title as is, anything else is spoilers! We're not joking around about keeping Topic titles spoiler-free.


SaltyJoe wrote:Think about: a female character starting out semi-tsundereish, and after a path of trials and tribulations, she evolves into a stronger person on her own without pining for the main characters schlong. It would be an anime first.


That would be nice to see in an anime, yes.

And I can't believe I'm saying this, but I find myself agreeing with quite a few things Synapsid has said so far.

carla wrote:i really hope to see Asuka deal with her issues on her own-- none of that insta-magic "i found my mom, so everything's alright now!" thing. AND keeping her issues separate from Shinji, if possible. however, that doesn't invalidate the idea that they may still end up together at all (hey, just because she's tsundereish doesn't mean she should end up alone), it just means that we wouldn't have the spectre of co-dependence and unhealthy "need" casting shadows if it does end with a Shinji/Asuka pairing


Yes!! It would be awesome if Asuka could deal with her problems on her own instead feeling okay (or insane >_>) after realizing Kyoko's with her.

And eliminating the unhealthy need/co-dependence from A/S Is Fine Too! :smirk:
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Postby Kaname Langley » Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:03 pm

@carla: Oo Mein Gott! another S/A Crazy fan.
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Postby NickFury90 » Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:58 pm

SaltyJoe wrote:
Think about: a female character starting out semi-tsundereish, and after a path of trials and tribulations, she evolves into a stronger person on her own without pining for the main characters schlong. It would be an anime first.



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Postby Ark » Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:35 pm

Synapsid wrote:
Given the relative position in the series it isn’t really different at all, to be entirely accurate Shinji didn’t throw himself at Asuka till he had lost everyone else,(as late as 24 he really seemed to just see her as an estranged friend) that’s one of the things that seemed to infuriate Asuka during Preinst.


I agree with this. I think Asuka's accussation in the instrumentality kitchen scene is basically true. He's turning to her because he feels alienated from everyone else. In contrast she's shown to be really hurt by his lack of interest in her even before things turned really bad.

In that sense the relationship is pretty similar in both versions. It's more on Asuka's part.
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Postby Synapsid » Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:16 pm

carla wrote: "losing" Asuka is probably one of the things that pushed him over the edge when Rei was similarly threatened. that... didn't really happen in NGE at all. in NGE he did fail Asuka, but he probably blames himself just as much as he blames his father-- which convinces him that he's useless instead of giving him a will to fight harder.
For the most part that sounds right but I think Bardiel did more damage to him than that: by what we’ve heard it didn’t just traumatize him away from piloting but also put him in his broken EoE state: unlike the TV version with Zeruel he really didn’t care about 3rd impact, but loosing what he had left before his eyes was enough to open that wound and drive him into a blind frenzy.
And Shin does seem a bit less aware of what’s going on this time but it isn’t too different from last time, he did spend scenes in 18 and 22 accompanying Rei and mothering her in his own affectionate way...but it seems that her death in 23 was sudden and surreal enough( and he wasn’t broken enough to throw away everything yet) that his actions were different but losing her and finding out the truth certainly crushed him...they may well set him up for an even crueler reveal this time around, certainly his mother is going to come in play but if they do recover him and Rei it may not be his Rei despite his efforts at saving her (actually thanks to Asuka’s contamination and the glowing Shin all of the pilots coming back changed may well be a theme).
carla wrote: i'd say it's a safe bet that he will find out eventually and how he takes the shocking news will determine whether he'll take refuge on Asuka like he did in EoE or not.
that's why i like the angel contamination and/or the "i blame you for almost killing me" ideas-- at least that way it's all up to Shinji and Asuka themselves, it doesn't depend on Rei. that's why i like the angel contamination and/or the "i blame you for almost killing me" ideas-- at least that way it's all up to Shinji and Asuka themselves, it doesn't depend on Rei.

Shinji really does have a habit of grasping for straws when he thinks he’s been abandoned, so besides throwing himself at Asuka if he finds out she’s alive(It certainly is possible that Asuka’s a mess and she blames Shinji and wants to hurt him, so that would only further leave him alone) it could also be used as a way for Gendo to manipulate him...I suppose if it came to that it could make a good point for Kaworu to intervene, he has been talking about helping Shinji find happiness and it might be more in the sence of being his guardian angel than becoming his husband (that’s not to say that they wouldn’t get some sort of BL scene).

Sailor Star Dust wrote:And I can't believe I'm saying this, but I find myself agreeing with quite a few things Synapsid has said so far.
Ah really? Thanks I guess...see not all of my faggorty is bad ^_^
Sailor Star Dust wrote: Yes!! It would be awesome if Asuka could deal with her problems on her own instead feeling okay (or insane >_>) after realizing Kyoko's with her.
Er, well Shin and Rei are conspicuously absent in the trailer and they’ve shown her empty coffin, and then there’s her smirk so it’s likely that she crawls out of this on her own.

Now that we’ve mentioned it I do think that Asuka’s “recovery” in the start of Air was a bottle of antifreeze from Anno. She did finally her open her heart to mother, like Rei mentioned before Arael but it did nothing to address all of her crushing problems or her fragile sense of identity, and all sorts of context foreshadowed that it would have a horrible end, not in the least was Kyoko’s “die with me” pleas, which really was how it ended...but it seems that slipped by at that time, everyone had been shown a ray of light so they stared at it rather than the shadows behind it.
I don’t think anything light in EVA won’t have shadows to its side...so if we get fed anything nauseatingly sweet it’s really toxically bitter.

Kaname Langley wrote: Shinji/Gendo
Um I'm sorry but were you talking about Shinji being the seme to Gendo? I don't know how that could be...Unless... unless if Shinji's been posessed by momy and Yui's set out to hurt her Gen-chan.

Mr. Tines wrote:Because it would give the finger to both traditional factions of S/A and S/R.
Uhuh, but wouldn't Kaji/S work for that matter too, and seeing as how they had a more colorful scene shouldn't they be above Mari?
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Postby SaltyJoe » Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:50 am

Utterly off-topic, but i just have to respond.

@NickFury90:
Faye is semi-tsundereish?

Sure, she had her bouts of immaturity (well, lots of them) but she was mostly a woman of her own.

Also

*tagged only for NickFury90, should he read this*
SPOILER: Show
There have been "tweaks" regarding Asuka's personality in Rebuild. She is far closer to the textbook definition of a tsundere. In one scene, she kicks Shinji in the face for seeing her in the nude, and in another, she tries her hand at cooking food for Shinji, to show her affections (which come out of absolutely nowhere). So seeing her evolve past this would be a bigger break, IMHO.


And about the "pining for the main characters schlong" thing: well, if you take a peek at the Bebop section on FF.net, you can get an idea of what the viewers thought about Faye longing or not longing for Spike.

I want a female character to do the impossible, and be beyond the shadow of a doubt about secretly being in love with the male protagonist.


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Postby NickFury90 » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:55 am

Well, I mostly thinking about how Faye faced her problems and her lost family, but realizes she was with her family all along at the Bebop.

Which is why I believe she didn't want Spike to leave in the final episode, or when she comes to his rescue with Pierrot Le Fou, OR when she tries to heal him up after the church fall. Not because she had the hots for him, but because thats what family members DO: they take care of each other, watch each others back, and if one of them is about to do a one-man assault on an enemy stronghold with certain death looking them in the face, then they damn sure they won't them to leave.

I think Faye becomes a stronger character IN SPITE of Spike, because she lets go of the past and lives on, while Spike can't seem to let it go, until his past demons kill him. Similar for Jet, who had an opportunity to kill the bastard who set him up. Jet doesn't and lives, Spike does and dies. The really badass cool guy everybody wants to be ends up living a lifestyle that no one wants to have.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:07 am

Synapsid wrote:Shinji really does have a habit of grasping for straws when he thinks he’s been abandoned, so besides throwing himself at Asuka if he finds out she’s alive
Or at least re-enacting the hospital scene from EoE, only now it's fapping to /d/ material rather than /s/.

Synapsid wrote:wouldn't Kaji/S work for that matter too
That would have its amusement value; but it depends whether this version of Shinji is in to full-on necrophilia.

SaltyJoe wrote:I want a female character to do the impossible, and be beyond the shadow of a doubt about secretly being in love with the male protagonist.
That only happens in series with female leads (and these days, that is often accompanied by a lot of the secondary female characters crushing heavily on her, in a continuation of the old trope).
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Postby SaltyJoe » Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:13 am

Final off-topic jab:

NickFury90 wrote:Well, I mostly thinking about how Faye faced her problems and her lost family, but realizes she was with her family all along at the Bebop.


I agree with most of what you wrote regarding the Bebop crew. I also prefer to think of their dynamic this way than what the shippers enforce.

However, the main point i was trying to make is that Faye not only becomes, but also starts out as a stronger person, more removed from the classic harem anime roles than either iterations of Asuka.

In my, however limited, experience with various anime tropes and cliches, a tsundere is a character that is faced with two possible routes: either she (he?) opens up to the love interest de jour and becomes a beautiful submissive butterfly, or is pushed away by the plot in favor of the "real" couple, either in ingominy or with pathos. And that is the end of the line for most of them.

However, since we already had a more tsundereish Asuka already completing this sequence
SPOILER: Show
when she steps down from pursuing a relationship with Shinji once she realizes that Rei's affections for him are more genuine (yes, that actually happens)
, there is an opening for an age old anime cliche to be pounded into the ground. It would be big break, i think. (BTW, i'm only tagging the spoilers for you, NickFury90. Do i need to? This wouldn't be required in the first place within this thread.)


Mr. Tines wrote:That only happens in series with female leads (and these days, that is often accompanied by a lot of the secondary female characters crushing heavily on her, in a continuation of the old trope).


Two age old anime cliches.


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Postby User-iel » Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:31 am

I would love to be able to better speculate about this, but the massive plot compression of RoE has left me with less significant screen time.
As of now, prediction is that A/S is still on for 4.0. Reasoning is thus:
Asuka has closed the gap with Shinji in different and more normal terms compared to NGE.
Shikinami iteration has more functional mental resources and greater internal dialog. Her possibility for sanity is much higher, IMO from the phone dialog with Misato.
Unless Shinji goes very Sis-Con (more so than Toji), the sibling relation has been magnified in RoE, to the extent that it will be consciously manifest, and dealt with in dialog. Not so triangular this time.
Even if Bardiel left her with a few screws loose (These are my gifts! they're all my gifts! He gave them to me!), Shinji behaves like a good little plot element, and ignores the other NORMAL girls.
She can just blame the doll from here on out, avoiding ego destruction. Unless Bardiel!hallucination takes the form of her doll from her POV.

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Postby Vegeta 20XX » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:00 am

Joseph the PRPD wrote:I still want to see RoE end with ShinjiXRei.


So? I wanted there to be some Shin n' Sachi in 1.0, but it didn't happen. I'd be surprised if Shinji gets paired up with ANYBODY (it'd be hard with the current setup), though then again, maybe the Shinji/Asuka kiss happened off camera or something. Not hoping for it, just a suggestion (it means check 2.0 for any small implications of such).

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Synapsid wrote:Is there any reason in particular?
Because it would give the finger to both traditional factions of S/A and S/R.


I'm with Tines on this one. While I wish it could be done WITHOUT pairing or shipping, I guess you have to lose some to win some. Now to prepare a sig that expresses this properly...
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Postby LiLi » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:44 pm

The Goose wrote:Does he ever say that he considers Rei a friend out loud or in his mind during the two movies?


Not as far as I can remember. It's all open to interpretation as far as I can tell.


Synapsid wrote:Given the relative position in the series it isn’t really different at all, to be entirely accurate Shinji didn’t throw himself at Asuka till he had lost everyone else,(as late as 24 he really seemed to just see her as an estranged friend) that’s one of the things that seemed to infuriate Asuka during Preinst.


I agree with the above.

now that they seem to have fully developed their relation it’s highly unlikely that Anno will let them be happy(asides from being trapped in an EVA condensate, and I don’t know how happy they’ll be),


I tend to agree with this... ;_;

It makes me feel sorry for Rei, but at this point I'd also like to see the Kaworu-relation-to-Shinji angle explored a bit...

Interestingly, Shinji hasn't kissed anyone so far... I guess I'd rather leave that privilege to Kaworu... :lol: (well, at least if Rei isn't around... ;_;)

However, I think it needs to be pointed out that 1) unless some really major change has been made in Rebuildverse, Rei is NOT Shinji's mother - she might be his Mom's (part-)clone(type-thing), but she didn't give birth to him. 2) Just because the Oedipical undertones squick out some (many?) people, it doesn't mean that "it cannot happen".

Personally, I'm not looking forward to an "A/S Kiss" type-development.

For Asuka, at this point Touji/Asuka (which I'd be interested in) doesn't seem too likely to happen (even though I'm not saying it's impossible)... but I'd like to see some focus on the relationship between her and Mari at least - I'll admit I probably wouldn't mind some Yuri undertones between them... :tongue:

But no romance for Asuka might very well be plausible, what with the contamination deal and everything...
Last edited by LiLi on Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby carla » Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:02 pm

Synapsid wrote:by what we’ve heard it didn’t just traumatize him away from piloting but also put him in his broken EoE state: unlike the TV version with Zeruel he really didn’t care about 3rd impact, but loosing what he had left before his eyes was enough to open that wound and drive him into a blind frenzy.


true that he didn't care about 3I at all, but if i have to be honest, i just never got that EoE feeling in rebuild. this is, of course, just my very personal impression of it, but i didn't feel Shinji was "broken." he was, to put it simply, damn pissed. and scared, and determined to get Rei the hell out of there. "broken" to me implies a state of helplessness and, well, "brain short-circuiting" that he just didn't have in 2.0. in EoE he was so beaten down by everything that happened, by everybody he had lost, by the fact that the world was ending around him, that he wanted to be put out of his misery, he wanted to just die. in rebuild he didn't care if he died-- these are two fundamentally different concepts.


Synapsid wrote:but it seems that her death in 23 was sudden and surreal enough( and he wasn’t broken enough to throw away everything yet)


right, you're right. i had forgotten about kaworu. however, since kaworu's already here, all that does is reinforce in my mind the thought that we can't parallel this timeline to the NGE one.


Synapsid wrote:(actually thanks to Asuka’s contamination and the glowing Shin all of the pilots coming back changed may well be a theme).


...angel!Asuka, glowing!Shinji, digested!rei-II, and then mari going "beast mode"? :chuckles: yeah, i'd say.


Synapsid wrote:they’ve shown her empty coffin, and then there’s her smirk so it’s likely that she crawls out of this on her own.


that's what i thought when i saw her smirking, as well. that feeling of "the old Asuka is back!" that we got in EoE after she discovered kyoko, only this time she's not in her eva so maybe she does get better by herself. which would make absolutely ecstatic :nyao:


Mr. Tines wrote:Because it would give the finger to both traditional factions of S/A and S/R.


lol, "fight the power"? :sweatdrop: can't say i disagree with the approach. at least you always know where you stand.


@kaname-- *salutes* yep! at your service, ma'am.

@nickfury90-- saltyjoe's right, i for one happen to think faye wasn't exactly pining, but she wasn't completely indifferent to spike either. the "family" approach is, of course, the idea behind it all, but interpretation is subjective... (i like your username, BTW. yaaaay, marvel!)

@saltyjoe-- there will always be doubt. statistically speaking, at least one person will have doubts. even when the female character ends up with some other dude (or girl), there are still doubts.

i guess it's your prerogative if you want there to be no romance between them (and i see the appeal-- it would be interesting to see if they could pull it off), i just don't particularly see how her "ending up with Shinji" and her "dealing with her issues on her own" have to be mutually exclusive. there's no reason why tsundere's "dere" side can't be extended to something beyond romantic feelings... that's just the most common take on it, and the literal meaning of the word. but since we're talking about breaking tropes... that's the way i would choose to go, personally. in my mind, she doesn't have to end up alone just to prove a point.

hmm. i guess it really depends on whether you're plot-driven or character-driven...


User-iel wrote:Asuka has closed the gap with Shinji in different and more normal terms compared to NGE.


funny you say that, because i just remembered that the first time i saw the "bed" scene, i remember going "wow. they just shared more in one scene than they did in the whole of NGE put together." it was only upon rewatching that i noticed Asuka at least hadn't really ventured that much information about herself. but it does kinda leave you with that feeling somehow.

which is why i'm not bothered that they left the kiss out-- they're just doing this in a different way. Asuka's a lot less desperate than she was in NGE, so i think the kiss would be almost overkill.

they could put in a different sort of kiss. would make me happy. :kawaii:

@LiLi-- i've been dying to see some Asuka/mari interaction ever since i saw this pic. (eh, somehow i can't find the original version atm). i swear, it would be so freakin' epic...
Last edited by carla on Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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