NGE's Status as a Work of Art...

This is a forum for general conversations and casual discussions about all things Evangelion. Chit-chatty conversations like "Pen-Pen is adorable" or "Which Eva kicks the most ass?" also belong here.

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Evangelion217
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Postby Evangelion217 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:15 pm

Where I live, openly liking anime lowers your chances of having sex with attractive people.


You must live in one ignorant place. Where I come from, attractive people do like anime.
The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth.

"Komm Susser Todd" is the most up-lifting song about depression"- Evangelion217

It's stange that "Evangelion" became such a hit. All the characters are so sick!- Hideaki Anno

oOoOoOo
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Postby oOoOoOo » Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:35 pm

You live in New York City! No rule applies to it! Twenty million people live there, which is two-thirds the population of my entire country! That's twenty times more people than my city.

The rest of the world is much, much different. ^_~
~ O-chan is soooo 2D right now.

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Postby Joseph the PRPD » Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:38 pm

Evangelion217 wrote:
Where I live, openly liking anime lowers your chances of having sex with attractive people.


You must live in one ignorant place.


Ignorance and negative generalizations are [damn near] everywhere.


Off topic: 217 where in NYC do you live in?
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Postby NickFury90 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:25 pm

As long as you're not talking about Anime on your first conversation with the girl. Its funny when guys complain the "Women/Relationships" thread at SRK.com, saying shit like "Well, I'd talked about stuff I like like Naruto and Secret Invasion comics, but she didn't go for it."

WELL NO SHIT
"I can't agree with people who believe the mole under Ritsuko's eye represents her fear of inadequacy or some other crap"
Captain_Morgan, on Neon Genesis Evangelion

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:52 pm

oOoOoOo wrote:What? o_O The internet is extroversion for introverts, but that doesn't make it extroverted.
Let's clarify; not THE INTERNET as a whole, but perhaps things like message boards. And even then that's not always the case. Many people get on the internet to pass the time at school or at work and these people aren't necessarily introverted.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Merridian » Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:52 pm

Warning! Approaching terminal agreement! My god! The absolute discrepancy barrier is breaking down! Soon, individual entities will be unable to perpetuate incongruous discourse! Coherency is congealing into form and certainty! :heehee:

Eva Yojimbo wrote: Does Citizen Kane REALLY have great cinematography or do a lot of people simply think so and thus it becomes a kind of standard? Then again, one certainly doesn't have to limit that to art; you can stretch it to morality, for example.

That’s actually where I was going with the argument. Objectivity is built on the agreed-upon subjective standards of a social consciousness.

Eva Yojimbo wrote: Logic follows that if some are made at all, then more will be. It only takes a ripple of a few people falling in love with something like Watchmen and then deciding to dig a bit deeper before you have a much larger number of people than normal getting into comics.

It sounds awesome in theory. But in practice, you only see this on a very small scale. It’s true that movies based on comic books may drag some new people into the medium, but they often only buy what’s readily available and preconceived as being ‘classic’ already, so there isn’t a whole lot that changes. Someone who liked The Dark Knight will probably buy Long Halloween, Dark Knight Returns, maybe Killing Joke and Year One, and if they’re old enough to feel nostalgic, they might even pick up some of the Gold/Silver-age reprints (the Chronicles and the Showcase Presents! stuff). Very few of them start buying comics.

And that leads me here:

Eva Yojimbo wrote: Of course the monthlies will probably always stay on a level similar to soap operas for kids and nerds because, well, that's generally what they're aimed at.

Well… I’ll give you the nerds. Kids only became targeted demographic when the Comic Code Authority became authoritarian and ruled the editors with an iron fist of censorship throughout much of the twentieth century. Before that, Batman carried a gun and Strange Tales had dead bodies being gruesomely torn apart on a near-weekly basis. When that kind of thing returned full-force with stuff like Watchmen, the child-oriented demographic really fell down to Archie Bunker-type material. It’s still published, but no one reads it. Then again, I guess that’s similar to saying that Gears of War is a M-rated game intended for teenagers or adults, but there will always be people buying it for their ten-year-old (who already owns GTA 3 and Manhunt).

Getting to my point: the monthlies still have the stigma of being nerd and/or child oriented, regardless of what the demographics actually are. This being the case, it really doesn’t change a whole lot in terms of how soon the public is introduced to so-called masterpieces, since they’re STILL going to wait until it gets endorsed by people they trust (such as the New York Times or TIME or PEOPLE magazines) or turned into movies/TV series—and that stuff only happens until a few years after said comics have been compiled into trades.

All of this gets back to the whole idea that circles of people within these artistic niches decide on their own various ‘canons’. Comic book canon has its loosely-defined group of books that are ‘MUST READS’, but there are also sub-canons of these as well—DC canon, Marvel canon, countless others that range from Top Cal canon to general Indie canon. Same applies to anime, and Evangelion’s already in the upper-echelon of Anime Canon alongside Akira and GitS and Lain. At this point, literature is no different, and neither is cinema or music. I’m still of the opinion that High Artistry is something that is being eclipsed in favor of a much more noticeable (and louder) pop-art approach to expression.

…which leads right into another point:

Eva Yojimbo wrote: Well, if we're talking about "last 20 years" recent then we can't really talk about canon but can only predict future canon. Since canon is something that's formed over time, picking it in the present is incredibly hard, because opinions on aesthetics change with the generations and what lasts is generally what gets canonized.

All of this is true, as far as I’m concerned. It also means that Evangelion simply isn’t yet old enough to be recognized in such a manner.

Eva Yojimbo wrote: I'd actually like to read some of these if you have any links. I always like reading reviews about relatively niche works from places that don't focus on those things.

I thought the GitS review was in an IEEE magazine, but I can’t remember for sure. Anyway, I tried to Google this stuff but came up with shit. Sorry. If I ever come across some links, I’ll contact ya.

Eva Yojimbo wrote: That, plus you also have to consider there's a great amount of unconscious, intuitive creation that goes into art. Artists rarely consciously grasp 100% of what they're saying and how they're saying it (much like people in real life).

YES.

Eva Yojimbo wrote: They may see something like Spirited Away or Bebop but ONLY because it's marketed more towards them. NGE is very much a product of its culture and medium so I can see a certain kind of limiting appeal through no fault of its own. And people outside it can certainly find it appealing on any number of levels (characters, drama, action, mysteries, etc.) that have nothing to do with its more limiting contexts.


This all comes back to something I said earlier, about Eva being easier to digest if you expect typical anime tropes to show up right off the bat. Spirited Away and Bebop don’t rely quite as heavily upon the standards clichés of anime in order to be enjoyable—in fact, Bebop seems more sci-fi oriented than Evangelion, just as a good majority of the early-90’s cyberpunk material is. Evangelion is instead framed and marketed as a mecha-oriented program—and most people tend to see only the mechas rather than the character dynamics. Its target audience is people who have watched anime before, are familiar with anime, and don’t mind the tropes it reinforces through the first half of its presentation. I’d say that is a fault of its own, but a mighty fine fault that deserves to exist and be recognized.

Eva Yojimbo wrote: But part of me hopes that this new generation is going to go a long ways in demolishing such ignorant stereotypes about anime (and comics) in the West. I already see it happening with comics and if people are able to start accepting smarter and smarter comics (and comic book films) then it shouldn't be more difficult to accept smarter and more serious animation.

Ahh, now that’s my kind of baseless & ungrounded optimism! I’d love to believe that, but seeing how the anime industry’s doing (and the movie industry… and the comic industry… and just about all the other industries…), I think we have a LONG way to go before the West, as a culture, starts pushing for quality over quantity. And by ‘LONG way to go’, I mean post-nuclear apocalypse and revitalization of civilization.

Eva Yojimbo wrote: Social change can be a very slow thing even when the change is urgent (civil rights), so I really worry about something where people aren't even aware that things DO need to change.

One last thing before I forget about it: anime has yet to be recognized as valuable a medium as traditional cinema or literature, and I’ve found that it’s even more downplayed in importance than comic books are. I think general cultural appreciation of animation is going to have to improve before Evangelion stands a chance of being accepted into any kind of canon beyond Anime.

Eva Yojimbo wrote: It would be a monumental task and I'd certainly have to have help.

If there’s anything you think I could help out with, you can get my email from my profile. I do my best to reply to this kind of stuff.

I hope this made sense. I should be asleep and I’ve been listening to a bizarre mix of music while I typed this up, so if the topic-shifting seems somewhat illogical, it’s probably due to my inability to retain coherent thought patterns.

...And Mew's nothing. Go for Missingno! Glitch dat shit!

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:46 pm

Merridian wrote:Warning! Approaching terminal agreement! My god! The absolute discrepancy barrier is breaking down! Soon, individual entities will be unable to perpetuate incongruous discourse! Coherency is congealing into form and certainty!
Sig'd.

Merridian wrote:That’s actually where I was going with the argument. Objectivity is built on the agreed-upon subjective standards of a social consciousness.
Yep; that's my take on it.

Merridian wrote:But in practice, you only see this on a very small scale. It’s true that movies based on comic books may drag some new people into the medium, but they often only buy what’s readily available and preconceived as being ‘classic’ already, so there isn’t a whole lot that changes.
Well, the 'change' is that it starts creeping closer to mainstream acceptance and appreciation among circles who may have typically spurned them.

And that leads me here:

Merridian wrote:Well… I’ll give you the nerds. Kids only became targeted demographic when the Comic Code Authority became authoritarian...
Guess I should've said "kids of all ages". :D But you're quite right, obviously. Most of the people I used to see hanging out at comic shops weren't kids.

Merridian wrote:All of this gets back to the whole idea that circles of people within these artistic niches decide on their own various ‘canons’.
Which is true, but I guess my only complaint is that with many of these works (and NGE and Watchmen/Sandman are great examples) is that they've really outgrown the rather small/limiting canon of their respective mediums. What I mean is that they are great enough to be considered masterpieces not just of their medium but of all art. They also have enough relevance to appeal to people outside those niches, and I really see NGE fitting into a film canon and being popular among cinephiles the same way Watchmen/Sandman could/should be among bibliophiles.

Merridian wrote:It also means that Evangelion simply isn’t yet old enough to be recognized in such a manner.
Which I can accept but I guess I'm more concerned about the process of it happening, which might not without some active promotion.

Merridian wrote:This all comes back to something I said earlier, about Eva being easier to digest if you expect typical anime tropes to show up right off the bat.
Actually, I almost think the reverse. Those who expect those tropes are often the ones who have the most trouble with the series since it certainly doesn't conform to the expectations they produce near the end. Those who don't have these expectations would, naturally I think, have an easier time accepting the direction it takes without wanting it to do something else.

Merridian wrote:Spirited Away and Bebop don’t rely quite as heavily upon the standards clichés of anime in order to be enjoyable
True, but Spirited Away is heavily rooted in classic Japanese art and themes and Bebop is very strongly rooted in, surprisingly, American film tradition.

Merridian wrote:Its target audience is people who have watched anime before, are familiar with anime, and don’t mind the tropes it reinforces through the first half of its presentation. I’d say that is a fault of its own, but a mighty fine fault that deserves to exist and be recognized.
I think that was the target audience because those would be the people who would naturally watch NGE when it premiered, yet NGE clearly has more to it that can appeal to people outside that target audience and while I can understand it not being marketed to them there's no reason that its audience can't spread the word outside that context; which goes back to my 'keeping it in the family' point.

Merridian wrote:now that’s my kind of baseless & ungrounded optimism! ...And by ‘LONG way to go’, I mean post-nuclear apocalypse and revitalization of civilization.
Well, I'm not talking about a revolution... What I see is that more and more young aesthetes are becoming more and more open to comics and anime as a valid art-form. Granted that the 'young aesthete' is a very small/limited group in itself but it's precisely that group that grow up to be scholars and professors and art critics that can usher in new eras of study and criticism. And it often only takes one to make radical changes in the perception of these things; look at TS Eliot's critical influence on how people approached literature.

Merridian wrote:anime has yet to be recognized as valuable a medium as traditional cinema or literature, and I’ve found that it’s even more downplayed in importance than comic books are. I think general cultural appreciation of animation is going to have to improve before Evangelion stands a chance of being accepted into any kind of canon beyond Anime.
Well, anime as an entity perhaps hasn't, but I'd say animation has. I've never really seen anyone denigrate animation as an art form beyond them saying it doesn't appeal to them, personally. And with works like Persepolis, Triplets of Belleville, Waltz with Bashir, I do see it gathering even more critical appreciation. I think the problem is that there isn't ENOUGH artistically great animation to keep it in the critical consciousness. It seems more like that the great, critically acclaimed works are forever the exception rather than the rule, and critics lose patience looking for the exceptions. If anime consistently produced masterpieces I think it would be different.

Merridian wrote:If there’s anything you think I could help out with, you can get my email from my profile. I do my best to reply to this kind of stuff.
Well, I don't see myself attempting it anytime SOON. Like I said, more of a "bucket list" thing.

Merridian wrote:...And Mew's nothing. Go for Missingno! Glitch dat shit!
God, Pokemon was so silly but it sure was FUN when I was younger! My knowledge basically doesn't extend past the first gen stuff.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Merridian » Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:41 pm

Eva Yojimbo wrote: Sig'd.

:peace: I am honored.

Eva Yojimbo wrote: my only complaint is that with many of these works (and NGE and Watchmen/Sandman are great examples) is that they've really outgrown the rather small/limiting canon of their respective mediums.

I see what you mean. Certain works do deserve to be elevated out of subgenre canon, but the masses are fickle things that often can’t even decide on concrete genre-encompassing canon anyway. In time, NGE might get there, but I still think that it is too dependent upon the tropes of the genre. Something like Texhnolyze will get to that point first, if only because it bears little resemblance to other popular anime. I think Akira and GitS have already attained that status, but I also think their acceptance is a different story since they’re movies rather than full series.

Eva Yojimbo wrote: It seems more like that the great, critically acclaimed works are forever the exception rather than the rule, and critics lose patience looking for the exceptions. If anime consistently produced masterpieces I think it would be different.

This is true. There are definitely some things that deserve to be considered masterpieces within anime--even recent stuff--but a lot of that tends to fly under the radar of the mass market, so most of the public fails to see them. It'll always be easier to market something like Love Hina or Elfen Lied than Kino's Journey, and even though there is a small market for things like Kino's Journey, it's pretty difficult to get the right people watching the right stuff--especially when the 'right people' are already pretty disheartened about most of the medium we're dealing with. I know I am, but I still have that bizarre streak of optimism that keeps me looking for gold, regardless of whether I actually find any.

Eva Yojimbo wrote: My knowledge basically doesn't extend past the first gen stuff.

Didn’t you ever try the Missingno glitch by Cinnebar Island to get 99 Masterballs? Hahaha man, I’m geeking out right now with all the memories of Blue version flooding back. I need to play that again…

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:33 am

Merridian wrote:In time, NGE might get there, but I still think that it is too dependent upon the tropes of the genre. Something like Texhnolyze will get to that point first, if only because it bears little resemblance to other popular anime.
Well, you know, Ben Johnson said of Shakespeare "he wasn't for a time but for all time", yet it's hard to completely extricate his work from his historical context (as all those explanatory footnotes are a testament to). You would think that NGE being a commentary on its genre tropes would allow it to become one of those transcendental works that manages to comment on a context while containing content/themes which clearly doesn't rely on it; which is clearly the case for its success in the west and among new fans who aren't aware of such tropes.

Merridian wrote:but a lot of that tends to fly under the radar of the mass market, so most of the public fails to see them.... it's pretty difficult to get the right people watching the right stuff--especially when the 'right people' are already pretty disheartened about most of the medium we're dealing with.
Well, I've found that one good way to get these 'right people' to see them is to build a good reputation and then recommend them. There's really no other way. Though I'd say Texhnolyze also falls under that "under the radar" thing...

Merridian wrote:Didn’t you ever try the Missingno glitch by Cinnebar Island to get 99 Masterballs?
You bet I did! Took it to go get all of the super rare and hard to catch 1st gen Pokemon. Awesome glitch, even better than the one in Ocarina of Time that allowed you to get unlimited Spider-thingies (I forgot what they were called).
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James


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