The Mystery of Gendo's Office

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Postby Reichu » Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:20 pm

ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:So there is a back wall in the office? But why dooes the glass slope inwards?


Um... because the office is located in a pyramid?

Why is all this stuff in german anyway?


Because somebody scanned the entirety of the German translation of Newtype 100% and I was too lazy to scan from my Japanese copy. :P

Anyway, the production drawing clearly shows us the location of the office. We're dealing with a blooper in #19.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:01 pm

Even before this thread I had already thought that Gendo's office would be "above the line" in the screenie that OMF has supplied. The window has to represent the All-Seeing Eye.

And the perspective looks off in that drawing - it makes the floor look smaller than the ceiling.
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:04 pm

Well, taking a look at the production diagram again, the lamps are very clearly labeled. Now we saw these, very prominent, lamps in Ikari's office in episode #06 (1), but then we never saw them again. In the very next episode we are treated to the familiar view of Ikari's office, embellish as it is with those rather esoteric kabbalistic and quantum mechanical scriptures.(2) Now, you'll note this office is considerably darker than the one we saw Misato standing in. Indeed in episode #19, we can see that the back of the office, opposite Ikari's desk, is rather shrouded and windowless(3).

[URL=http://imageshack.us]Image[/URL]
We know from the production drawings, that the office with the lamps Misato stood in, sits at the apex of the Nerv pyramid. However as mentioned previously, this office would appear to have been destroyed by Zeruel(4). On top of this, Unit-01 was flung against the side of the pyramid during the battle(5). Despite all this, we later see Ikari and Fuyutsuki rather calmly watching this scene outside from within the decorated office(6).

From the above, it seems reasonable to suggest that the office shown in episode #06 is not the one shown in episodes #07,#08,#19 and #20 amoung others. Does Ikari have two offices? It seems possible. But here's another possibility. What if the office we saw, only once, in episode #06, isn't Ikari's at all? Maybe this is Fuyutsuki's office? It would fit most of the pieces at any rate.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:17 pm

Are you sure you're not overanalyzing again?
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:39 pm

Reichu wrote:Are you sure you're not overanalyzing again?

"E pur si muove"
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Postby DatDude » Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:43 pm

ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:
Reichu wrote:Are you sure you're not overanalyzing again?

"E pur si muove"


Galileo you ain't OMF
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Postby Reichu » Tue Jul 26, 2005 6:31 pm

ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:"E pur si muove"


I'll take that as a "Yes".
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Postby DatDude » Tue Jul 26, 2005 6:54 pm

According to legend Galileo wispered that under his breath after he renounced his work to keep his head.

I think it means " but it doens't move"

But my itilian suckls like a clinton intern so don't quote me on that.
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:24 pm

It means "But it does move" or "And yet it moves". It's very unlikely Galileo ever publically stated the words. By it I mean of course, that the above screenshots are actually there. I wouldn't raise a theory unless could give supporting evidence.

I'm a bit puzzled about this over-analysis thing. It seems to be a recent arrival to the forums, coinciding alas with my own arrival. Though I'm not one to believe in coincidence. The main reason for my puzzlement is I'm not quite sure exactly what overanalysis actually is. Could one for example, be accused of overanalysing say, the human body, or the night sky, or the meaning of life? Or indeed Neon Genesis Evangelion. At what point does analysis cross over into overanalysis?

What is overanalysis? I'm failing to see exactly what is meant by the term. Do you mean my analysis is somehow incorrect or illogical? Or do you mean that the subject was not one for analysis in the first place? If the former case, I really cannot see how the post diverged from regular analysis. If the latter case, I'll have to state on a personal note, that to say that there exist things which cannot or should not be investigated is an anethema to just about everything I've ever held my whole life.

All that said, I'll try and make my thoughts a little clearer here so that hopefully I may discover where I have strayed from reasonable investigation.



The problem before us seems relatively straighforward. We have the production drawing explictly given the location of the office in the apex of the pyramid. Then we have the apex of the pyramid shown destroyed only minutes before we are shown Gendou and Fuyutsuki standing in the apparently the same office. There is an clear contradiction here. It's unambiguous. We have here what I take the liberty of naming the "Ruined Office" paradox.

If we look again at the production drawings and episode #06, we can see that the design of the office shown here is distinctly different from the office we are shown in subsequent episodes. Why? Well let us suppose that the office was redecorated or redesigned in the interval. But this would leave us in the same contradictory position we were in before, namely Gendou and Fuyutsuki are standing in the perfectly intact ruins of an obliterated office.

So let us take another road of thought. Let us now assume that the office at the top of the pyramid is not in fact the office we see later. Certainly this, "two offices" solution would resolve the "runied office" paradox present in episode #19, but we have introduced another problem. Why does Gendou have two offices? Seemingly another paradox. Again I'll beg your indulgence and dub this the "extra office" paradox.

So let us now of the moment, accept the seemingly illogical "two offices" solution, on the grounds that it resolves the "ruined office" paradox, while introducing the "extra office" paradox, which is fortunately of a less singular nature than the previous one.

So must we accept the "extra office" paradox? Let us try to extend the "two office" solution in an attempt to resolve the paradox. Let us now assume that though there are two offices, but that they belong to different people. Further assume that the "Lamps" office belongs to professor Fuyutsuki, and the "Symbols" office belongs to Gendou. We seem to have resolved the "extra office" paradox through the "two office, two residents" solution.

However in so doing, we have introduced the problem that Misato meets Gendou and Fuyutsuki in Fuyutsuki's office. Once again I'll dub this the "misemplaced congress" paradox.

How can we adjust the "two offices, two residents" solution in order to resolve the "misemplaced congress" paradox? At this point however, I would ask the reader to note that the "misemplaced congress" paradox is less severe than the "extra office" paradox, which in turn was less severe that the "ruined office" paradox. So it would seem that despite the presence of the "misemplaced congress" paradox, the "two offices, two residents" solution has left us in a better position.

How to adapt the "two offices, two residents" solution to resolve the "misemplaced congress" paradox without introducing a more severe paradox? I'll leave this one as an exercise for the reader.


I hope my thoughts on the matter are now somewhat clearer than before, and hopefully my reasoning in coming to my conclusion is a little clearer. Hopefully as well, the bare bones of my analysis can be examined so that the extent to which it constitutes overanalyis can be most readily demonstrated. That is assumming that overanalysis is a definable term, applicable to our discussion?
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Postby DatDude » Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:44 pm

The overanalysis thing come from me 8) .

I define overanalysis in eva as looking for hidden meaning so hard that you see somthing thats not their.

For gods sake man Anno didn't make the damn show so impossable to understand that you need a phd in astrophysics and human psychology to understand.

Take a step back and stop looking at eva like its a magic eye puzzle, you might find somthing you might like, I did.
8)
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Postby Reichu » Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:03 pm

^ THAT (your last post), OMF, is overanalysis. Rampant, FLAMING overanalysis. What is overanalysis? In this case, I would say "dealving into trivial issues as earnestly and verbosely as OMF is prone to (often combined with conjectures that would sink under the weight of a cave cricket)". I'm not trying to be mean here -- it's just a very frank observation.

My first reaction is that Gendo's office got a makeover in #07, and here we are just dealing with a continuity error. (Did you know that the second half of #19 actually has them!?) But just so that I don't stick my foot into my mouth, I'll do a little more studying before I say anything else.
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:36 am

DatDude wrote:I define overanalysis in eva as looking for hidden meaning so hard that you see somthing thats not their.
Right. Then under this scheme, obviously saying Evangelion is a critique of post war geopolitics is going into the realm of overanalysis. However, what does musing on ruined offices count as?

Reichu wrote:^ THAT (your last post), OMF, is overanalysis. Rampant, FLAMING overanalysis. What is overanalysis? In this case, I would say "dealving into trivial issues as earnestly and verbosely as OMF is prone to (often combined with conjectures that would sink under the weight of a cave cricket)". I'm not trying to be mean here -- it's just a very frank observation.

This overanalysis is subtlely different from the first. Rather than with the result, the trouble here is with the method being too pedantic and formal I guess. Clearly my previous post was facetious, however you'll find the thread of thought is fairly logical, if a little wordy. The "over" in this overanalysis means dragging the argument out too long? Be aware this is sometimes unavoidable.

I'm not quite sure which level of detail is now appropriate. My first one line post on the matter, my later elaboration with images, or the farcically pedantic last post. I couldn't really see anything overly wrong with the middle most to be honest.

DatDude wrote:Take a step back and stop looking at eva like its a magic eye puzzle, you might find somthing you might like, I did.
8)


I consider Evangelion to be a puzzle. An enormous n-dimensional jigsaw puzzle with hyperdimensional pieces, which fit across space, time, events and characters. I consider it our task to make these thousands of whirling and seperate hyperpieces, cohesively fit together into one whole picture or interpretation of the series. I'm being deadly serious by the way.

As with a normal two dimensional jigsaw, my method here is first to "turn over" these hyperpieces, revealing their faces, then attempt to fit them into larger "blocks", which in turn make it easier to fit these blocks to other blocks, thus bringing us closer to completeing the jigsaw.

I consider this office problem to be itself a collection of pieces which we must attempt to assemble into a cohesive block, with the aim of eventually fitting it into the whole. But is this office matter to trivial or inconsequential to bother with? Maybe it's just not important and we shouldn't bother with it? To this I respond, would you be contented to toss aside a few seemingly boring jigsaw pieces so you could better concentrate on the more colourful pieces?

Perhaps this "office" block will never connect to the others. Perhaps it will have no bearing on other "event" blocks. In any case should we not at least make the effort to fit disjoint pieces together? Is it beneath us to muddy our hands with seemingly obscure matters? We are not so lofty as to have completely solved all of Evangelion's mysteries, and we remain as ignorent as ever to some of the most frequent questions asked of the series.

You might say that by focusing so narrowly on petty pieces and blocks that I lose sight of the beauty and mystery of the whole. I might be unweaving the rainbow, but in so doing I'm threading the ribbons into what I consider a more marvelous cloth, one in which I can see and understand both the whole and the part. I haven't lost sight of complete picture. I've mearly gained insight into the smaller sights as well.

I'm going to try and "solve" this puzzle, because I believe it can be done. I'm not going to declare this task intractable and walk away unsatisfied. I'm going to try and do this, as ever, one step at a time. With each assembly of pieces I believe I'm getting one step closer to a better solution. Even if blocks are smashed apart by new revelations, or must be disassembled by the appearance of conflicts, even if I have to tear everything apart and start again, I still think I'll be that bit closer to precipitating order out of the chaos. And I consider my time well spent.


Having harangued you all for far too long, I'll just finish up by saying that I don't consider this office matter of any great significance or importance. Nonetheless I think it is a problem, however small, and I think we can find a solution to it. If not us, then who else?
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Postby DatDude » Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:42 am

OMF wrote:I consider Evangelion to be a puzzle. An enormous n-dimensional jigsaw puzzle with hyperdimensional pieces, which fit across space, time, events and characters. I consider it our task to make these thousands of whirling and seperate hyperpieces, cohesively fit together into one whole picture or interpretation of the series. I'm being deadly serious by the way.


You know that Eva doesn't fit together %100 right? Their plot holes and outright fuck ups that make this idea impossable.
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:55 am

I forgot to add that I seek a solution to the Evangelion puzzle. I actually think there are multiple interpretations of the story that one could fit together. Multiple solutions in this problem so to speak.

As to the supposed "plot holes", which incidently I don't accept as legitimate, I still think we can find an interpretation of Evangelion that takes them into account. Why not? It's better than saying, "It will never make sense. Stop trying."

As to continuity errors, yes if Unit-01's faceplate is colored wrong I'll see it for what it is. But if Gendou's office is seemingly obliterated and reconstructed in minutes, I'll try to seek a better interpretation that my previous assumption rather than pass it all off as the cruel hand of oversight.

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Postby DatDude » Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:07 am

You know the story was not writen out all the way before they started making the show right?

You know Anno didn't start reading the psycology books till after the series started right?

You are looking for somthing that is not their, im sorry.
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Postby AchtungAffen » Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:25 am

I think Overanalysis is when you walk past beyond evidence and start a bootstrap process of suppositions building atop other suppositions into eternity. I think you reached that point (OMF) here:

So let us take another road of thought. Let us now assume that the office at the top of the pyramid is not in fact the office we see later. Certainly this, "two offices" solution would resolve the "runied office" paradox present in episode #19, but we have introduced another problem. Why does Gendou have two offices? Seemingly another paradox. Again I'll beg your indulgence and dub this the "extra office" paradox.


What do you mean by that question? I don't think that can pose a doubt on the two offices argument, which is just logic (princiuple of no-contradiction). Gendou might have a second office for reasons that go from having a 2nd office in case the 1st one is destroyed (same as the command center after #19 to that he sometimes likes light or shade, depending on his mood. But no evidence confirms either. That's why, with no evidence supporting a reason to doubt the existance of a 2nd office, and by the need of avoiding contradiction (when searching for a logical explanation of Eva), I believe the 2nd office argument is the most plausible.
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:43 am

Dat Dude wrote:You know the story was not writen out all the way before they started making the show right?

You know Anno didn't start reading the psycology books till after the series started right?


As you can imagine, the view that Anno was making the series up as he went along, hastily scribbling together various threads of thought, does not exactly resonate with me. I don't doubt that certain edits and modifications were made on the fly, as happens in all productions. However I simply cannot extend this to the view that the entire series was a hackneyed hodgepodge of ideas thrown together at random with no attempt at integrity or consistency. There must surely have been certain constants that the director held to. Foundations on which the story rests.

I think at some stage, I think I read someone suggesting that it wasn't initally intended that Shinji's mother was in Unit-01. This is the kind of place such thinking will eventually land you in. A quagmire of doubt and uncertainty, where up is down, left is right and the entire series becomes simply a random series of images, bereft of any deeper meaning whatsoever. No thank you.

If this is the alternative, I'll cling desperately to my forlorn view that Evangelion is a cohesive and interpretable work, made my men with minds who had preconcieved intent for the series. Not by literary hacks idly plucking random plotlines from thin air and bolting them crudely, episode by episode, onto an ever more rickety frame. If this is the truth, then I'd would rather accept the flasehood!


Dat Dude wrote:You are looking for somthing that is not their, im sorry.
What's not there? The office? Isn't that the whole point?


AchtungAffen wrote:
What do you mean by that question? I don't think that can pose a doubt on the two offices argument, which is just logic (princiuple of no-contradiction). Gendou might have a second office for reasons that go from having a 2nd office in case the 1st one is destroyed (same as the command center after #19 to that he sometimes likes light or shade, depending on his mood. But no evidence confirms either. That's why, with no evidence supporting a reason to doubt the existance of a 2nd office, and by the need of avoiding contradiction (when searching for a logical explanation of Eva), I believe the 2nd office argument is the most plausible.

Indeed. The "extra office" paradox, wasn't in fact a paradox at all. I was of course being satirical. There are umpteen reasons why Gendou has two offices, but the key point here is that to resolve the paradox in episode #19 we need to assume that there are in fact two offices. Our "one office" assumption is not consistent.

This discussion could become an interesting and rather fruitful one on the use of logic and reason in argument, as well as its application to Evangelion. However in our wanderings one thing shall remain constant. That thing being, the assumption that Gendou's decorated office lies at the apex of the pyramid leads inevitably to a paradox. Despite the methods used in its description, this fact remains unaltered.
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Postby Reichu » Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:48 am

But where the hell would this supposed second office be?

Considering the 'first office' is seen once and never again, and the scene in #19 had already been plagued by one continuity error (it was actually corrected in Renewal, but correcting G and F's place of vantage seems a bit less practical), I think you're clearly making a huge deal out of a mere blooper. At this point, I'm obligated to quote the Monkey: "IT'S A FRIGGIN' CARTOON!"
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:05 pm

Reichu wrote:But where the hell would this supposed second office be?

Atop the reflector tower would seem a likely spot to start with. There may be other locations to be sure.


Reichu wrote:Considering the 'first office' is seen once and never again, and the scene in #19 had already been plagued by one continuity error (it was actually corrected in Renewal, but correcting G and F's place of vantage seems a bit less practical), I think you're clearly making a huge deal out of a mere blooper. At this point, I'm obligated to quote the Monkey: "IT'S A FRIGGIN' CARTOON!"

"I find your lack of faith disturbing."

If this is a blooper, then it would appear to be one which spans multiple episodes. We see Gendous office in episode #20 (1), yet in the very same episode we are again show that the pyramid's apex has been destroyed.(2) In fact the apex has still not been repaired by episode #22! (3)-(4)
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Postby Reichu » Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:10 pm

What "reflector tower"? Are you talking about the train terminal?

"I find your lack of faith disturbing."


What can I say. I'm a disturbing person.

BTW, my little "cropped thumbnail with CROP written on it" technique is patented! I want my money!
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