Post 3I humans and the nature of the fruits, souls &c.

For serious and at times in-depth discussions only, covering the original TV series, the movies End of Evangelion and Death & Rebirth.

Moderator: Board Staff

Axell
Bridge Bunny
Bridge Bunny
User avatar
Age: 31
Posts: 1618
Joined: Jul 30, 2008
Location: What are you a stalker?
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Axell » Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:01 am

lilin derived organism, sub-lilin, same thing. I was trying to say before that the name doesnt matter, if the official term is LDOs so be it. I guess i just oversimplified them to be lilin in my earlier post, but as i said before, rose by any other name will still get tanged in an anti ATF

"SWEET JESUS, IT'S A ANTI AT FIELD!"

Reichu
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
Posts: 24046
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Sailing for the white shores
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:27 am

Axell wrote:lilith derived organism, sub-lilin, same thing.

NGE is anthropocentric enough as it is; we don't need to make it more so by categorizing all non-human Lilith-based life as "Sub-Lilin" (= "below Lilin").

And there is no official term, hence why a straightforward descriptor is used.

rose by any other name will still get tanged in an anti ATF

I was just correcting you on the "Lilin" thing. You don't need to try to persuade me about the other stuff; I've been ramming it down other people's throats for years whenever they don't get it.
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」
Departure Message | The Arqa Apocrypha: An Evangelion Analysis Blog

Axell
Bridge Bunny
Bridge Bunny
User avatar
Age: 31
Posts: 1618
Joined: Jul 30, 2008
Location: What are you a stalker?
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Axell » Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:22 am

lol my attempts at agreeing with you seem to constantly result in me making a typo that makes me look like an idiot

AuraTwilight
Evangelion
Evangelion
User avatar
Posts: 3317
Joined: Mar 16, 2008
Location: Za Warudo

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby AuraTwilight » Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:25 pm

Only mankind are Lilin. End of story.

As for the original discussion, I was always of the opinion that since all souls are basically the same, then souls are basically "neutral", and the Fruits were biological constructs, not spiritual. Thus why Adam's body was so speshul, but not necessarily his soul. Therefore, Post-3I humanity, once they reembody, should be the same as always.

NemZ
Token Misanthrope
Token Misanthrope
User avatar
Posts: 15804
Joined: Jun 28, 2008
Location: St. Louis
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby NemZ » Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:39 pm

Reichu wrote:You "want to go there" with the Fruit of Knowledge?


I don't see how it can be helped. I expect that either both are objects or neither is... and at the very least -something- about them can be affected physically, even if indirectly.
Rest In Peace ~ 1978 - 2017
"I'd consider myself a realist, alright? but in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist. It means I'm bad at parties." - Rust Cohle
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
"The internet: It's like a training camp for never amounting to anything." - Oglaf
"I think internet message boards and the like are dangerous." - Anno

Synapsid
Pilot
Pilot
User avatar
Posts: 2143
Joined: Aug 05, 2008
Location: NERV Baths

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Synapsid » Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:00 pm

Axell wrote:If your trying to make a point that plants were not included in instrumentality, i agree, they probably werent, but they'd be tanged non the less
I think it would fit in with a Shinto background if we were to consider the plant and paramecia aggregates to comprise spirits, essentially the same as what the humans and Pen2 metaphysically are, after all they to break down without an ATF. If that were so they would also have been pulled into the doors of Gaff…perhaps the reconstitution process for the simpler LDO is innate/instinctive.
Axell wrote:as for sugar, its an organic substance, not organic. Its made by organic processes but is not alive nor does it contain a soul so does not require an ATF and is unaffected by a AATF
of course by this rational the canned goods should still be intact; after all nearly all of them involve already dead material...That said we’ve never seen the contents of a post 3I tin and can’t know what happened...But I’d guess that the AATF disrupted intermolecular bonds; if dipole type principles would cease in a AATF then organic macromolecules would breakdown to the constituent molecules, a protoplasmic soup...

@Reichu
Could the LCL Sea possibly have dissolved imperfectly? If that’s the case then maybe some of the compounds (Fats?) have condensed near the coast...Or Hakone could have some sort of estuary.
It's a trap!|Saigo no shisha seitenkan
Genderbending is an important part of any fandom and must be taken very seriously. ZapalacX
If you ever say that name again, I will hunt you down and neuter you with a spork. Sailor Star Dust *cue Shinji's bloodcurling girly scream* LiLi
leave my innocent Shinjiko thread alone! Reichu Asuka would be the one going "SURPRISE BUTTSEKS, BAKA!!!!" while of course in appropriate dress and, *cough, gulp, snort*, with a certain strapped on accessory THE Hal E. Burton 9000

Axell
Bridge Bunny
Bridge Bunny
User avatar
Age: 31
Posts: 1618
Joined: Jul 30, 2008
Location: What are you a stalker?
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Axell » Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:21 pm

the canned goods would not be intact, as a soul is needed to hold an organisms shape. This implies that souls leave the body long after death, but would answer why no one tangs after being shot.

Baz
Leliel
Leliel
User avatar
Posts: 715
Joined: Mar 21, 2009
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Baz » Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:36 pm

Axell wrote:This implies that souls leave the body long after death, but would answer why no one tangs after being shot.

There is a better explanation for the "dead people don't tang" issue. We already that souls are divisible, so you can just say that when the soul leaves the body, a little bit of it gets left behind, just enough so that the body keeps its shape. When the body finally decomposes, even that last little bit is lost.
Last edited by Baz on Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Software Error. Press left mouse button to continue.
Guru Meditation #00000004.0000AAC0

Twsa'teotu
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 100
Joined: Feb 18, 2009
Location: Dressed up like V

Re: Post 3I humans and the nature of the fruits

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Twsa'teotu » Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:37 pm

Axell wrote:
Now to take away from that clever thought heres some fanwankery. When humanity was instrumentalized, could it be possible that since adam's soul was in the mix that when Shinji and Asuka came back they carried with them not only the fruit of wisdom but of life too? This goes back to a silly coment i made about them having to live off of lcl and people juice. But if they had fruits of life that would solve their mortality problem. Otherwise they'd be dead soon and returning would be very pointless.


There is absolutely no sense in that; they said Angels and humans cannot co-exist.

And you notice that things like plantlife have returned after Third Impact is over
Question: "who the hell do you think I am?"
Answer: "My name is Mr. Snrub and I come from some place far away....Anyway, I say we invest that money back in the nuclear plant. "
"I like the way Snrub thinks!"

Axell
Bridge Bunny
Bridge Bunny
User avatar
Age: 31
Posts: 1618
Joined: Jul 30, 2008
Location: What are you a stalker?
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Axell » Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:54 pm

angels and humans cant coexist separately, but as shown by the fusion of lilith and adam, they can be combined into virtual gods.


and where did you see plant life after 3I, only thing left besides lcl and sand was petrified wood. PETRIFIED wood, as otherwise that's not concurrent with 2I

BobBQ
Dyskolos
Dyskolos
User avatar
Posts: 4486
Joined: Jul 21, 2006
Location: Somewhere out there
Gender: Male

Re: Post 3I humans and the nature of the fruits

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby BobBQ » Sat Apr 18, 2009 6:19 pm

Twsa'teotu wrote:they said Angels and humans cannot co-exist.

They once said black and white people cannot coexist, too.

Axell wrote:and where did you see plant life after 3I, only thing left besides lcl and sand was petrified wood.

Gee, I could have sworn I saw a tree or two when Rei's head touched down...

Twsa'teotu
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 100
Joined: Feb 18, 2009
Location: Dressed up like V

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Twsa'teotu » Sat Apr 18, 2009 6:25 pm

Axell wrote:angels and humans cant coexist separately, but as shown by the fusion of lilith and adam, they can be combined into virtual gods.


and where did you see plant life after 3I, only thing left besides lcl and sand was petrified wood. PETRIFIED wood, as otherwise that's not concurrent with 2I


No, those were the Seeds of Life not Angels, and that was the world of Instrumentality that Shinji "rejected". To say that humans were still merged with Angels is to say that Instrumentality never ended

further, I'm simply confused; there's no evidence to support the idea that 'Maybe Adam fused with Shinji and Asuka' other than you opinion that "wouldn't that be really nifty?"
Question: "who the hell do you think I am?"
Answer: "My name is Mr. Snrub and I come from some place far away....Anyway, I say we invest that money back in the nuclear plant. "
"I like the way Snrub thinks!"

Mr. Tines
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar
Age: 63
Posts: 21053
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
Location: This sceptered isle.
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Post 3I humans and the nature of the fruits

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Apr 18, 2009 6:26 pm

BobBQ wrote:Gee, I could have sworn I saw a tree or two when Rei's head touched down...


Now look what you made me do!

Image
Reminder: Play nicely <<>> My vanity publishing:- NGE|blog|Photos|retro-blog|Fanfics|🕊|🐸|MAL
Avatar: Whatever happens in 𝄆, we will always have the original Neon Nova Exceed!

Axell
Bridge Bunny
Bridge Bunny
User avatar
Age: 31
Posts: 1618
Joined: Jul 30, 2008
Location: What are you a stalker?
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Axell » Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:56 pm

hmm, if those are actual trees thats a big continuity error since as i said before, if you compare 3I to 2I there should be no living things left, nothing but tang.

Twsa'teotu wrote:No, those were the Seeds of Life not Angels, and that was the world of Instrumentality that Shinji "rejected". To say that humans were still merged with Angels is to say that Instrumentality never ended

further, I'm simply confused; there's no evidence to support the idea that 'Maybe Adam fused with Shinji and Asuka' other than you opinion that "wouldn't that be really nifty?"


First off, I'd like to point out that main point of my opening post was that fruits were attached to souls. If you had read it carefully, you would notice that after i make that point, i say

Axell wrote:Now to take away from that clever thought here's some fanwankery.
I went on a tangent from my original point, partly to voice other thoughts that had led me to my main point, but mostly to ask a question of what others thought about the possibility of Shinji and Asuka having s2 organs. I brought up that thought because i wondered what they could possibly eat in a post 3I world. I proposed this as an alternative to my other thought of them just drinking lcl/people juice as it would contain all the nutrients they would need.

I don't need hard evidence for this as i am not stating it as a fact but as a possible answer to my question of what do they eat. I myself am not backing it up 100% either as i do have an alternate theory as stated before. My point was to generate discussion about the possibility.

Reichu
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
Posts: 24046
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Sailing for the white shores
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:14 pm

Axell wrote:hmm, if those are actual trees thats a big continuity error since as i said before, if you compare 3I to 2I there should be no living things left, nothing but tang.

Not really a continuity error. The trees just "imagined themselves in their hearts" (so to speak).

I proposed this as an alternative to my other thought of them just drinking lcl/people juice as it would contain all the nutrients they would need.

The ocean is still the ocean. If you want to subsist for any extended period of time, you do not want to be drinking ocean water, even ocean water with biological soup and souls mixed in.

I tried advancing a hypotheses a couple years ago about how some humans (including Gendo and Fuyutsuki) chose to "board the Eva Ark" (= Yui's Chamber of Guf) and will be reborn on some other planet as a new "two-ty Fruit-y" human species. The proposal didn't get very far, though, and it was quickly swept away by the tides.
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」
Departure Message | The Arqa Apocrypha: An Evangelion Analysis Blog

Axell
Bridge Bunny
Bridge Bunny
User avatar
Age: 31
Posts: 1618
Joined: Jul 30, 2008
Location: What are you a stalker?
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Axell » Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:25 pm

silly intelligent trees messing with my fanwanking. If they could imagine themselves back wouldnt they end up in the ocean too?

good point about the ocean salt, but lakes would probably still have fresh people juice. ( I vote for post 3I lcl to now be called people juice)

hmm, maybe shnji was actually going cannibal on Asuka. Would make the original "I won't let you kill me" line fit more.
Last edited by Axell on Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Baz
Leliel
Leliel
User avatar
Posts: 715
Joined: Mar 21, 2009
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Baz » Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:38 pm

Speaking of cannibalism, maybe salty GNR bits kept washing ashore to provide Shinji with sustenance.
Software Error. Press left mouse button to continue.
Guru Meditation #00000004.0000AAC0

Lucretius
Nerv Employee
Nerv Employee
User avatar
Age: 31
Posts: 1398
Joined: Jul 31, 2008
Location: Italy, EU
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Lucretius » Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:02 pm

I am I the only one who thinks the "fruits" Kozo was talking about are just a metaphor? I mean, Classified Information says this about Angels: "Compared to organisms born from Lilith, the Angels are predisposed towards enormous size and individualistic existences." Maybe the "fruit of knowledge" means knowledge of the other? Judging from Armisael, Angels lead completely solipsistic existences. She doesn't realize what loneliness is until Rei explains it.

He shuddered a bit, remembering the somewhat creepy level of detail Kaji had gone into, while rubbing a watermelon in a disturbingly sexual way.

Life is a continuous nut-kicking contest where your turn comes last if ever. -majlund

Proud supporter of Shinji x Sachiel

Reichu
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
Posts: 24046
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Sailing for the white shores
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Sat Apr 18, 2009 11:01 pm

Lucretius wrote:I am I the only one who thinks the "fruits" Kozo was talking about are just a metaphor?

The Fruit of Life is not a metaphor. You can literally eat it.

I mean, Classified Information says this about Angels: "Compared to organisms born from Lilith, the Angels are predisposed towards enormous size and individualistic existences." Maybe the "fruit of knowledge" means knowledge of the other? Judging from Armisael, Angels lead completely solipsistic existences. She doesn't realize what loneliness is until Rei explains it.

One thing that isn't quite addressed is the plot construction whereby Angels simply aren't ALLOWED to meet one another and interact. One shows up, gets killed, another shows up, it gets killed, and so on. The Angels are basically all members of the same race, and if not for Lilith they would have had Earth to themselves and billions of years to get to know each other. Is it really the case that they are inept loners, or is what we see in the show no more than an artifact of their circumstances?

Axell wrote:silly intelligent trees messing with my fanwanking. If they could imagine themselves back wouldnt they end up in the ocean too?

Unless you think GNR collected the trees' souls, too, they would have just sat around wherever they went splat. Imagine something like this (just the bolded part; other crap just included for context):

Old RP thread fagg0try wrote:Akira quickly lost track of how long he’d been walking.... Even though the vista was clearly populated by some amount of flora, there was still that undying sense of desolation, an utter silence carried on the currents of air. Contributing to this sense of eeriness were those occasional patches of ground that felt different from the rest… A familiar stickiness. Every time, it conveyed the immediate and unshakable sense of walking on a grave, and Akira was fairly certain he knew why.

...Intermittent clusters of trees and brush gave way to a forested area. ... It was nice, this sense of being embraced by life. And the voices of stirring fauna intensified in here, as well.

Still, the number of “graves” underfoot… Akira thought he could feel even more of them. At a point, he crouched down to touch the soil, running his fingers through it. He raised his hand, and brushed off superfluous clumps of earth with his thumb, but something remained strung across his fingers, some kind of stringy, agglutinated material, apparently amber-colored. And, as he scanned the ground, he could see more of it.

The red color of the ocean had thrown him off, but the stuff that had come to saturate its waters — it was the same as what Akira had been encountering. ...

At that moment, the stuff on his hand suddenly fell off — but not under the influence of gravity. There was something else, some other force compelling it, and Akira watched, entranced, as the agglutinated material scattered all over began to draw together, towards a central point. As more of it assembled, it began to take on an increasingly fluid quality, and it began to rise up, form a pillar.

Then, in a sudden, swift motion, the fluid was gone. In its place stood a small shoot.

Akira was stunned — but he understood. A smile formed on his face, and he stared at the tiny tree for a brief time, feeling some kind of admiration he couldn’t quite explain. Then, at last, he arose, and went on his way.

It was an angsty shoot, you see. That's why it took longer to return.

good point about the ocean salt, but lakes would probably still have fresh people juice.

Strictly speaking, it would be the juice of whatever was in there. Fish, frogs, insects, algae, plants, miscellaneous microbes, the occasional human swimmer, etc., etc. Most of the "people juice" would still be lying around wherever individuals had gone POP -- in most cases, on dry land. Since NGE wanted to do this whole "humanity being reborn" thing, though, our souls get dumped into the ocean, so we're forced to reembody from the LCL in there. "My new body is made of ex-plankton."

[Posts following this one split to here.]
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」
Departure Message | The Arqa Apocrypha: An Evangelion Analysis Blog

Synapsid
Pilot
Pilot
User avatar
Posts: 2143
Joined: Aug 05, 2008
Location: NERV Baths

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Synapsid » Sun Apr 19, 2009 4:04 pm

@Mr. Tines
Oh, I'd forgoten about those trees...But does that mean that they weren't liquified? That doesn't fit in with the total removal of life down to the bacteria from 2I (Unless if those trees returned early). God, I'm just confused now :shinji_boohoo:
It's a trap!|Saigo no shisha seitenkan
Genderbending is an important part of any fandom and must be taken very seriously. ZapalacX
If you ever say that name again, I will hunt you down and neuter you with a spork. Sailor Star Dust *cue Shinji's bloodcurling girly scream* LiLi
leave my innocent Shinjiko thread alone! Reichu Asuka would be the one going "SURPRISE BUTTSEKS, BAKA!!!!" while of course in appropriate dress and, *cough, gulp, snort*, with a certain strapped on accessory THE Hal E. Burton 9000


Return to “Evangelion TV Series + EoE Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest