EoE Instrumentality 101

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Postby Reichu » Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:33 pm

Ramiel² wrote:Maybe jsut the Fact Shinji never was physically connected with other peopled tanged ,due to his entry plug,same for Asuka.

That's kind of making the rather daring assumption that Asuka's entry plug was in any way intact by the time 3I happened, and that, even if it was, GNR's massive powers of persuasion would not draw Asuka's soul into the vortex like everyone else. She gets to deliver the final line in the "Shinji gets rejected by every woman on the planet" sequence, so...

Oedipusfoot wrote:That scene is just one of Shinji's psychic metaphors. It was taking place because he formed it. Neither of them are 'real.'

When Shinji sees Misato and Kaji having sex instead of hanging out with Ritsuko during their college years (which we learned about in episode 21 via audience's privilege), was that one of his "psychic metaphors" too?

In EoTV I always thought that Shinji was 'complemented' and didn't return to the base reality. I'm always impressed with the coral reef world('singular being').

I figured the blue globe was just a stylization for Earth (as opposed to the closed world of Instrumentality, which is escape from reality), and Shinji could not possibly be "shouting 'I' at the heart of the world" if he had instead submitted forever to the singularity. But that is another topic, really...

SSD wrote:2) When exactly does 3rd Impact start after the above (coffee scene)?

One image caption I recall in Eva Chronicle has 3I happening as early as the eye-shaped explosion. Since this is about the same time Eva-01 and the harpies generate an AATF, the event has perhaps acquired the necessary level of severity to have "begun".

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Complementation ends here, the Shekinah starts to disintegrate, and only then EVA-01 emerges.

Strangely, Shekinah's neck rips apart right BEFORE the sequence you cited...
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Postby NemZ » Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:43 pm

Reichu wrote:Strangely, Shekinah's neck rips apart right BEFORE the sequence you cited...


I've never been able to figure that out, actually. Is it just Shinji being frustrated by her non-answer of 'end of your dream' and whatnot? Perhaps that's the moment at which he decided this wasn't working, even if he wasn't yet aware he had decided.
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Postby Oedipusfoot » Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:51 pm

Reichu wrote:
Oedipusfoot wrote:That scene is just one of Shinji's psychic metaphors. It was taking place because he formed it. Neither of them are 'real.'

When Shinji sees Misato and Kaji having sex instead of hanging out with Ritsuko during their college years (which we learned about in episode 21 via audience's privilege), was that one of his "psychic metaphors" too?


Can I get away with saying some are a result of the 'mixing' and some are fabricated for the purpose of catharsis? That seems kind of weak now. Cho' well.

Reichu wrote:
In EoTV I always thought that Shinji was 'complemented' and didn't return to the base reality. I'm always impressed with the coral reef world('singular being').

I figured the blue globe was just a stylization for Earth (as opposed to the closed world of Instrumentality, which is escape from reality), and Shinji could not possibly be "shouting 'I' at the heart of the world" if he had instead submitted forever to the singularity. But that is another topic, really...


Coral reef=single entity composed of many parts. Instrumentality=formation of many people into one. Imagery is too focused (?)(struggling from lack of vocabulary) for it to be just 'style.' I didn't say forever even, but if coming back out of the singularity meant incompletness then...yeah, individuality (which was a major theme here) can't really be consolidated in Instrumentality unless you argue that since Shinji had some identity problems those were just being ironed out instead of played out. Ahhhhhh don't feel like thinking ahhhhhh.

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Postby Reichu » Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:59 pm

Oedipusfoot wrote:Coral reef=single entity composed of many parts. Instrumentality=formation of many people into one.

Interesting. I shall have to ponder this.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:53 pm

Oedipusfoot wrote:Coral reef=single entity composed of many parts. Instrumentality=formation of many people into one.


I know this is for a different topic altogether, but why would Shinji feel the need to say goodbye to his mother in both endings if Instrumentality occurred in the series ending? Also, just because the Coral reef could symbolism Instrumentality, it doesn't mean it was successful.

NemZ wrote:Is it just Shinji being frustrated by her non-answer of 'end of your dream' and whatnot? Perhaps that's the moment at which he decided this wasn't working, even if he wasn't yet aware he had decided.


I tend to think this, myself.

Reichu wrote:One image caption I recall in Eva Chronicle has 3I happening as early as the eye-shaped explosion.


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Postby NemZ » Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:20 pm

Sailor Star Dust wrote:I know this is for a different topic altogether, but why would Shinji feel the need to say goodbye to his mother in both endings if Instrumentality occurred in the series ending?


In EoTV it was Anno saying goodbye, not Shinji.
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Postby Ornette » Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:41 am

Which then leads to, why would Anno be saying goodbye to his mother? She's still around and has been doing just fine. Both his parents still live in the same house back in his hometown of Ube.

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Re: EoE Instrumentality 101

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Postby Mr. Tines » Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:53 am

Oedipusfoot wrote:In EoTV I always thought that Shinji was 'complemented' and didn't return to the base reality.


More like broke on through to the other side, rather than turning around and abandoning the journey, but yes.

Reichu wrote:I MUSN'T FORGET MY INTESTINAL FLORA!


Don't they get to imagine themselves separately? :D

While the inherent moprhic field or whatever could restore one's normal form, trying imaginative revisions sounds like a trickier proposition (perfected will-driven shells aside).
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Postby NemZ » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:02 am

Ornette wrote:Which then leads to, why would Anno be saying goodbye to his mother? She's still around and has been doing just fine. Both his parents still live in the same house back in his hometown of Ube.


Who said she was dead? Maybe it was more of a 'letting go' kind of goodbye... moving on with his own ideas or something.

Regardless, it definately struck me as more of a author's postscript/dedication kind of ending.
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Postby Ornette » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:49 am

NemZ wrote:Who said she was dead? Maybe it was more of a 'letting go' kind of goodbye... moving on with his own ideas or something.

Regardless, it definately struck me as more of a author's postscript/dedication kind of ending.

There's no doubt that Anno was speaking through Shinji a lot throughout the show, but I don't think you can say that it was Anno and NOT Shinji, seeing as right before the eyecatch Shinji is saying "Thank You".

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Postby VoidEater » Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:13 pm

Ornette wrote:Which then leads to, why would Anno be saying goodbye to his mother? She's still around and has been doing just fine. Both his parents still live in the same house back in his hometown of Ube.

I thought it was releasing her from the role he assigned to her in his mind (goodbye to the mother in his mind).
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:18 pm

Dunno if means anything, but I saw the final scene from EoTV online in.... Spanish I think it was, and Shinji is actually NARRATING the whole "thank you to my mother, goodbye to my father" instead of there being subs on the bottom of the screen.

Besides, I think the fact we get "goodbye, mother" in both endings is pretty telling it is meant to be Shinji. (Plus, Shinji's "Thankyou, father" COULD be a reply to Gendo's "I'm sorry, Shinji" in EoE).

Okay so back on topic, I still find myself confused about certain things regarding Instrumentality in EoE (same with EoTV actually) but some things have been made clear.

For one thing, it's confusing just WHERE the LCL Sea is. Supposedly it's within Lilith, but then it's on Earth once people are able to return....

I'm also confused on when exactly Shinji reembodies. Although it seems to be after he clasps Lilith's hand and thanks her, given the fact of the color switch from red/orange tint (representing souls/LCL?) back to regular coloring once we get the green colored sea.
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Postby NemZ » Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:48 pm

Sailor Star Dust wrote:For one thing, it's confusing just WHERE the LCL Sea is. Supposedly it's within Lilith, but then it's on Earth once people are able to return....


Depends which sea you mean. I actually kinda suspect that the Shinji/Rei overlap scene takes place within the stream of her neck geyser... spraying between the earth and moon, just as you see them floating between the two.

I'm also confused on when exactly Shinji reembodies. Although it seems to be after he clasps Lilith's hand and thanks her, given the fact of the color switch from red/orange tint (representing souls/LCL?) back to regular coloring once we get the green colored sea.


I'm pretty sure it happens right at the moment of the 'drop' motif, after the big musical finish with GNR parts raining hell upon the earth. It also seems like Yui gave him a helping hand putting himself back together.
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Postby Legendary » Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:09 pm

LCL Sea should be in the Black Moon, where everyone was being returned to. When it blew up, everyone inside it was able to return.

Proof that people were in the black moon:

The egg of Lilith... the genesis of human life... the Black Moon...
We have no desire to return to that empty shell,

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Postby Reichu » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:59 pm

NemZ wrote:Perhaps that's the moment at which he decided this wasn't working, even if he wasn't yet aware he had decided.

It's still rather weird, isn't it? Show GNR's neck burst open, and THEN have the whole explanation of what's going on. If nothing else, what's the narrative reasoning for ordering things like that (if any)?

SSD wrote:Wow. You learn something new everyday.

You know, I could have sworn I told you about that one before...

Sailor Star Dust wrote:it's confusing just WHERE the LCL Sea is. Supposedly it's within Lilith, but then it's on Earth once people are able to return....

There's plenty of room for confusion here, but try to keep the concept separate from the physical oceans of Earth. I think this is something very different, albeit kind of "parallel".

First of all, consider the whole aspect of "where?". Shinji got there by entering GNR's body. We know that he's still technically inside Eva-01, but, at the same time, he's with the souls of all humanity. Recall, too, that when GNR harvested the souls, they were funneled both directly into the Black Moon and taken into her body through her palms, but later on we see pretty much all of them emerge from the Black Moon. (Some pop out of her neck when her head falls off, but those are the only ones we see emerge from her body in any obvious way.) Makes you wonder, no?

Image

This cut, too, with its three streams of Rei heading towards a Moon in a red domain filled with floating human corpses, poses a few questions about just what the hell is going on.

Image

Since Shinji doesn't go anywhere between the time he sees this uncanny sight and the time we see him and Rei "coupling" (Eva-01 is still inside GNR):

Image

...and since it's still this vague, weird, red place, it's probably, well, still the same "place".

Let's return for a minute to what Rei says about it being the "LCL Sea" and the "sea where life began" (bochan_bird translated it a bit less literally as "the primordial soup of life"). This obviously isn't the primordial ocean of Earth, where life as we usually think of it began. So what could she be talking about?

Souls, maybe? A 'primordial sea' for souls? Seele wanted to return to the beginning, after all.

Check out the beginning of the show's OP, which could be read like a sort of creation story.

Image
The cosmic spark. The universe is born.

Image
Out of nothing, "red space" emerges. This imagery is a recurring motif in the show. Looks familiar, right?

Image
The image of the angel appears. For our purposes, this will signify the idea of 'expulsion from paradise' or suchlike. Mostly I'm thinking of the "cherubim keeping Adam and Eve out of the garden" bit from here (although I guess Sammael himself can relate to the whole "expulsion" thing, can't he?).

Image
So now the color transitions and a source of light appears.

Image Image
And we go up the Tree of Life... (Wait... that doesn't make any sense, we should be going down it... Oh, well, bear with me...)

Image Image
Then the flickering light appears, which the camera approaches until it is overwhelmed by light. The implication is that... well, just look at the original storyboard, which took a much less subtle (but more expensive to animate) approach.

Image

We're in the water heading towards the sun, and by the end of the cut we're broken through the surface.

I bring this up because it could possibly be interpreted to show both phases of life's origins. At least, it provides some romping great inspiration to explain the bizarro stuff in the rest of the show. So here's the "story as I imagine it", for your consideration.

First, souls are born in "red space", essentially a parallel plane of existence (what would string theory call it?), which is "paradise" and the original "primordial sea" or "womb". For mysterious reasons apparently involving angels and upside-down trees (or something symbolically relevant to the two, or vice versa), we were cast out of "paradise" into the universe we're more familiar with (depicted with a blue color). The souls Lilith was provided with, or drew out of "red space" herself, were cast into a second "womb", the primordial ocean of Earth, where they would react with organic molecules from the LCL, birthing physical life. And some of that life would eventually leave the ocean, and you know how it goes from there...

So why would a parallel universe be called an "LCL Sea"? Well, here's a little something I'll leave you with:

Image

Remember some of the things Ritsuko said about Leliel.

And another thing to think about: We see LCL come out of Eva cores on three occasions. Think about what the "inside" of an Eva core looks like, and if we've seen that kind of thing anywhere else... (Besides other Eva cores.)

I have to end it there, but I hope that didn't come across as utter gibberish. I've had this line of thought in my head (and pretty much nowhere else) for years, partially because it's so difficult to articulate properly. I imagine I'll wrap this up formally later, but those are some things for you to think about, at least.

I'm also confused on when exactly Shinji reembodies. Although it seems to be after he clasps Lilith's hand

Considering the whole contrast between holding hands (a gesture requiring physical distinction) versus bodies simply melding into each other, he had probably reembodied by then.
Last edited by Reichu on Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:21 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby NemZ » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:14 pm

Reichu wrote:BRILLIANCE


:thumbsup:

...I still disagree on the timing of Shinji's embodiment though.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:38 pm

I had a feeling Shinji's reembodying was what we talked about at some other point (after he held Rei's hand in thanks) but it's good to get confirmation on such.

Also, brilliant job with your post about the LCL Sea and such. :yippee:
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Postby NemZ » Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:04 pm

If that's when it happens, how do you explain the drop/ripple effect later when he appears in a new place with Yui, floating up and out of the ocean?

If he already reembodied, why does Rei say he must regain his lost form through his own volition shortly after that? Seems kinda redundant, eh?
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Postby Baz » Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:20 pm

The Genesis described in the post makes a lot of sense, but the comments about the Garden of Eden threw me off a bit. Mainly because, whatever a "sea of souls" is like, it sure ain't anything like the usual description of the Garden of Eden.

I'm going to provide another take on instrumentality that's more aligned with a Buddhist way of thinking. The "nirvana" of Buddhism is the complete denial of self, i.e. the acknowledgment that "self" is just an illusion. Sounds familiar, right? Upon reaching nirvana the soul is no longer reincarnated and is instead just out there, everywhere, as part of the spiritual stuff of the universe.

So my hypothesis, then, is that the HIP had the ultimately altruistic goal of forcing nirvana upon everyone, and NGE (i.e. Anno) is telling us that nirvana is in fact the lie and that the self (us and others) is the truth. Because why would we have come from the red stuff in the first place, if not to enjoy some selfhood for a while?

P.S. I'm not a Buddhist and have only a vague knowledge of Buddhism.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:40 pm

Baz wrote:The Genesis described in the post makes a lot of sense, but the comments about the Garden of Eden threw me off a bit. Mainly because, whatever a "sea of souls" is like, it sure ain't anything like the usual description of the Garden of Eden.

Did you read the blurb of explanatory text I linked to when the angel came in? That may help clarify. Otherwise I'll try to explain it better after I've slept and am thus more cogent.

I know the concept of nirvana is used in Instrumentality, but it didn't quite fall into the line of thought I was treading. But we'll see where things go. :wink:

Thanks for the positive feedback so far, all. I really had no idea how people would react to this.
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