Is Rei or Kaworu made of "Particle wave matter"?

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Postby Shin-seiki » Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:25 am

Eva Yojimbo wrote:And he says he and Rei are exactly the same. Ergo...
Also note this scene in the manga:
(Stage 71, p07-08)
[URL=http://img340.imageshack.us/my.php?image=evangelionvol11stage710rf9.jpg]Image[/URL] [URL=http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=evangelionvol11stage710nq3.jpg]Image[/URL]

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Postby Semisubtle » Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:07 pm

Well, that settles that.

Don't those scans also kind of support the idea that Rei I was formed during Yui's CE? Kaworu was made when the Katsuragi Expedition tried to make contact with Adam, and now Kaworu has Adam's soul. I'm not so clear on this theory, so am I totally wrong in saying that?

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Postby V » Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:37 pm

thank you, Shin Seiki

although I'm never 100% on something like this that is good evidence

****moving on: so what about "they're pulling little Rei's out of Lilith" vs "they're just growing Rei's in a vat"

I kind of go with the later....though we never see "premature" Rei clones only fully developed ones....maybe because they were just finished cloning them all already though...hmmm....
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Postby Semisubtle » Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:54 pm

If Rei I WAS pulled from Eva 01 during Yui's contact experiement, then I'm more inclined to think the additional Reis are coming from Lilith as well. True, we don't see anything more than legs growing out of Lilith, but perhaps when one is yanked out it grows into a fully developed Rei in the same way Rei III regenerates her arm in EoE.

On the other hand, when Gendo questions Ritsuko about destroying the Rei clones, he makes it sound as though it's a done deal and now there won't be any more. Plus, if they were just snagging Reis from Lilith, why would they have bothered to keep the development room (other than the sake of plot, of course)?

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:19 pm

Semisubtle wrote:but perhaps when one is yanked out it grows into a fully developed Rei in the same way Rei III regenerates her arm in EoE.

On the other hand, when Gendo questions Ritsuko about destroying the Rei clones, he makes it sound as though it's a done deal and now there won't be any more. Plus, if they were just snagging Reis from Lilith, why would they have bothered to keep the development room (other than the sake of plot, of course)?
Former: That's unlikely. They are referred to as "clones" afterall. There has to be some process that goes into "making" The Reis.

Latter: I always thought Gendo was more upset at Ritsuko over the gesture than the actual destroyed clones part. By that time it's so close to 3I that Gendo probably new he wouldn't need any more clones anyway. As far as the development room, it was likely where they turned the hunks of Lilith PWM into Reis.
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Postby V » Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:26 am

On the other hand, when Gendo questions Ritsuko about destroying the Rei clones, he makes it sound as though it's a done deal and now there won't be any more. Plus, if they were just snagging Reis from Lilith, why would they have bothered to keep the development room (other than the sake of plot, of course)?


Rei is a clone, they still have one Rei so they can just use her genetic material to make more, so logically the entire cloning process hasn't been destroyed, but its so close to Third Impact that they have no time to make another Rei so if Rei 3 dies she dies.

Still....yanking the little legs out of Lilith? I'm not sure.
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Postby Reichu » Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:35 am

Plant a "Rei Seed" into Lilith, wait for it to grow up, and then pull out a nice, fresh Rei and dump it into a tank. :tongue: If you get a 'bad one', just leave it in as a hint for the audience later.

There are much more difficult ways to explain away those little legs. The way Gehirn developed Eva-01 already indicates that their methods make absolutely no sense.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby V » Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:03 pm

err....are you being sarcastic? ( I can't tell with the happy face)
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Postby Reichu » Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:13 pm

The smiley face was there because of the "playful wording", and the second paragraph refers back to the first as if it's something I'm serious about regardless.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby Semisubtle » Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:33 pm

That actually does make sense. Lilith did create Lilin, after all, but if it were that easy I doubt they'd keep so many in the tank.

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Postby Count A'ight » Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:55 pm

Continued from another thread (thanks for the link, Reichu):

Reichu wrote:
Count A'ight wrote:I see absolutely nothing in the scan that is even remotely indicative of PWM.

Pretty rainbow colors.


Pretty rainbow colors = PWM? When was that established?
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Postby Reichu » Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:45 pm

Very, very relevant post.

The adjacent-ish posts are probably relevant, too. I need to fix some of those broken images.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby V » Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:03 pm

Reichu wrote:Very, very relevant post.

The adjacent-ish posts are probably relevant, too. I need to fix some of those broken images.
\

I am....openly surprised to the point of disappointment that anyone would consider "flashing lights in Rei's medical scan" to be anything approaching solid evidence that she's made of "particle wave matter". It was just how the animators chose to show a medical scan, and we don't exactly have ones from other characters as a point of contrast.

Really.....this was the lynchpin of the argument?

Pretty rainbow colors = PWM? When was that established?


I don't think it ever was "firmly established". More discussion appears to be needed.

A more sensible argument would be the "how does Rei 3 in EoE have her arm fall off only to regrow it" thing......but I don't think that proves "Particle Wave Matter" at all; in both human and Angel bodies, the cohesion of the body is a product of the AT Field (which is generated by the soul)

either way....were there OTHER reasons for thinking she's made of Particle Wave Matter, beyond the Pretty Rainbow Lights?

Shin-seiki wrote:
Eva Yojimbo wrote:And he says he and Rei are exactly the same. Ergo...
Also note this scene in the manga:
(Stage 71, p07-08)
[URL=http://img340.imageshack.us/my.php?image=evangelionvol11stage710rf9.jpg]Image[/URL] [URL=http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=evangelionvol11stage710nq3.jpg]Image[/URL]

"The matter comprising us is the same"


I only have raw versions of the manga. This may require detailed linguistic analysis for what the Japanese literal word for "matter" being used here is.

Further....Sadamoto isn't always right about everything.

Be that as it may, we've also got the basic comment "Eva-02 and I are composed of the same matter"

and I do generally consider that "whatever Kaworu is, Rei must also be, physically"

but I'm not sure if that's what was meant, I thought Kaworu could control Eva-02 because his AT Field/Soul is that of the powerful Adam.
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Postby Reichu » Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:24 pm

V wrote:I am....openly surprised to the point of disappointment that anyone would consider "flashing lights in Rei's medical scan" to be anything approaching solid evidence that she's made of "particle wave matter".

"Flashing lights"?

We're talking about the rainbow gradient that features in Rei's physical scan. Shin-seiki explained why this is relevant, in attachment to the rainbow gradient in the Angels' own physical scans, along with the direct comparison made by Ritsuko between the matter comprising the Angels and light (with the light visible to the human eye composing the visible spectrum, or "rainbow"). A pretty straightforward take on the clues; and definitely not so off-the-wall as to merit the melodramatic response you provided.

This may require detailed linguistic analysis for what the Japanese literal word for "matter" being used here is.

物質 = busshitsu = matter (in the physics sense), substance
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Postby Ornette » Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:32 pm

V wrote:Really.....this was the lynchpin of the argument?

No, it was a response to "I see absolutely nothing in the scan that is even remotely indicative of PWM." See 2 posts above yours.

V wrote:but I'm not sure if that's what was meant, I thought Kaworu could control Eva-02 because his AT Field/Soul is that of the powerful Adam.

Because it came from Adam like him, and that the soul of Eva-02 has "shut itself away", was the reason Kaworu gave.

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Postby V » Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:35 pm

as its because Eva-02's soul is "shut away" (because Asuka is gone) then I think we can attribute it to another "fun with AT Fields" trick by Kaworu

We're talking about the rainbow gradient that features in Rei's physical scan. Shin-seiki explained why this is relevant, in attachment to the rainbow gradient in the Angels' own physical scans, along with the direct comparison made by Ritsuko between the matter comprising the Angels and light (with the light visible to the human eye composing the visible spectrum, or "rainbow"). A pretty straightforward take on the clues; and definitely not so off-the-wall as to merit the melodramatic response you provided.



....the nucleotide list images just happen to be multi-colored. I see no direct visual relationship between those images and the Rei medical scan ones, and I am again, baffled that you considered this in any way a "strong" hint or clue.
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Postby Ornette » Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:59 pm

V wrote:as its because Eva-02's soul is "shut away" (because Asuka is gone) then I think we can attribute it to another "fun with AT Fields" trick by Kaworu

Not Asuka being gone, Kyoko being gone.

Episode 24' wrote:KAWORU:
The Eva are made of the same body as I am.
Because I am born from Adam as well.
I could merge with them, if only they didn't have souls.
Unit 02's soul has shut itself away for now.

Which also can be attributed to why Asuka wasn't able to sync with Eva-02 anymore.

The images from Rei's scans are just visual cues. Where else do you see them used in the series? If it's only in these instances, could they be linked? Maybe. If Rei is supposed to be made of PWM, could this link be intentional?

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Postby Count A'ight » Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:17 am

Pretty rainbow colors are also present when...

Image
Image
Image
Image

(this is just from the first six episodes. I don't feel like combing through all of them, but there are probably other instances)

EDIT: Oh look...

Image

Is Jet Alone made of Particle-Wave Matter? Last time I checked, JA was just a conventional nuclear-powered robot. But there are pretty rainbow colors anyway.

The same applies to slide-projectors...

Image

...NERV's "subcomputer 1", which I assume is made of normal matter...

Image

...and the occasional random background:

Image

Meanwhile, whenever an Angel is scanned, there is a complete absence of pretty rainbow colors:

Image
Image
Image
Image

This leads me to believe that maybe NERV/Gainax just likes pretty rainbow colors, and they have nothing to do with PWM.
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Postby V » Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:10 pm

Count A'ight wrote:
This leads me to believe that maybe NERV/Gainax just likes pretty rainbow colors, and they have nothing to do with PWM.


Indeed: they use "pretty rainbow colors" for everything, from unrelated computer displays to slide projectors.

Stop using that as evidence of anything.
Who is "Codename V"?....
I'm pleased to meet you and I hope you guessed my name, but what's puzzling you, is the nature of my game...so catch me if you can!! (0:50)
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You say you say you want a REvolution?...
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Postby Legendary » Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:33 pm

Your first pictures are of Evangelions and INSIDE Evangelions, which are artificial humans MADE OUT OF PARTICLE WAVE MATTER. You're proving the point with these two.

The third is of reality. I call BS here, we're talking about machines and scanning.

The fourth and fifth are backgrounds to the data. If they were rainbow-y in the data itself, you might have a point.

I'm not sure what the slide projector is a picture of, so you'll have to excuse my stupidity there, but I can't refute it.

The rainbows in the graphs are ways to allow humans to easily see what's happening at a glance. This is a normal way of making graphs.

Call me color-blind, but I'm seeing lighting effects that don't cover a whole spectrum in your Misato pic. Please correct me if blue and red are included.

Your first two Angel pics I can't refute as I don't know the context of either.

The third is a scan designed to let humans see through the egg, and is probably real color. None of the Angels were rainbows in the visible spectrum, that is true. The fourth pic is another example of that.

As for the picture of Rei itself, there is only one time I can think of when normal human beings are given rainbow-color treatment in medical procedures: when infrared is being used. That is NOT the case here. If it were, the red would be more centered on Rei's core (er, her chest in fancy-terminology, not the Angelic kind) and would be present in her head, parts of the body that retain heat and keep hotter than the rest of the body even as hypothermia sets in.

I'm not a doctor though, so if there's another case where such a thing is done, please let me know and tell me if the scan is consistent.


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