Reichu wrote:so, for reasons as yet undetermined, the essence of Lilith's soul was sucked out of its body instead -- permitted by the fact that EVA-01 was still connected to her mother at the time -- and a new, Yui-based entity was created: Rei 1.

Here's a thought I had on this not long ago (though I doubt if there's any way to prove it one way or the other): perhaps Yui somehow herded Lilith's soul into Rei 1. Everything else seems to be going according to Yui's plan, why not this as well? Do you think you could come up with a justification for this theory? For some reason I find it strangly appealing; perhaps because it attributes to Yui an occurence that proved vital to the realization of her plans.

Originally posted on: 01-Mar-2006, 17:49 GMT

It certainly would make sense, and the procedure masked as an attempt to rescue Yui would have made the perfect cover-up. Seele might never have known that Lilith's soul was not in its body.

Originally posted on: 01-Mar-2006, 19:25 GMT

Didn't SEELE know that Lilith's soul wasn't in the body, didn't they say something to the affect of that Lilith's soul needed to be put back in her body in 24?

Originally posted on: 02-Mar-2006, 08:44 GMT

OMF wrote:It certainly would make sense, and the procedure masked as an attempt to rescue Yui would have made the perfect cover-up. Seele might never have known that Lilith's soul was not in its body.

That's not exactly what I was saying. I think that the rescue attempt was genuine. Just look at Gendo's demeanor in ep. 21. But when they somehow created Rei's body instead of re-creating Yui's, she saw an (unexpected?) opportunity and put Lilith's soul into the vessel they had created for her instead of entering it herself. She would probably have done the same even if they had re-created her original body.
I don't believe that Gendo and the others had any idea what they were going to get until they got it.

I do agree that they would do everything in their power to prevent Seele from learning Rei's nature, but I don't think that they were cooperating with the disolved Yui to capture Lilith's soul, making the rescue attempt just a cover-up, if that's what you're saying.

Originally posted on: 01-Mar-2006, 21:02 GMT

I suppose a precedent for what you propose would have already been set, in a sense, by what happens to Shinji in #20. But how on Earth would Yui have any power over a soul as ludicrously powerful as Lilith's, and what would the motivation be?

Originally posted on: 01-Mar-2006, 21:50 GMT

How is one soul more powerful than another? I thought it was the equipment that the sould operated throught that determined its power.

Originally posted on: 01-Mar-2006, 21:52 GMT

Well, Rei's ATF is clearly more powerful than Kaworu's, as we can see in #24. (It's probably supposed to be a bit of a hint as to how this happened, too.) And it can also do some other really wacky things, like Quantum Magic. I guess ultimately, "Soul Power" would boil down to a number of factors. The important part is that Lilith is scary and Yui can kick most everyone's arse. Too bad we never get to see them engage in hand-to-hand combat.

</hazy>

Originally posted on: 01-Mar-2006, 22:11 GMT

Reichu wrote:I suppose a precedent for what you propose would have already been set, in a sense, by what happens to Shinji in #20. But how on Earth would Yui have any power over a soul as ludicrously powerful as Lilith's, and what would the motivation be?

One possible motivation would be that, given her close ties to Seele, she knew of Kaworu and wanted to give Nerv a counterpart.

Originally posted on: 01-Mar-2006, 23:05 GMT

Reichu wrote:I suppose a precedent for what you propose would have already been set, in a sense, by what happens to Shinji in #20. But how on Earth would Yui have any power over a soul as ludicrously powerful as Lilith's, and what would the motivation be?

Eh, Yui is persistent.

Originally posted on: 02-Mar-2006, 00:11 GMT

thewayneiac wrote:One possible motivation would be that, given her close ties to Seele, she knew of Kaworu and wanted to give Nerv a counterpart.

The counterpart aspect of Rei and Kaworu is external/narrative. This doesn't provide a logical internal reason for why Yui herself would create Rei, as far as I can see.

And I'm sure Tabris/Kaworu was no secret to her. Vis creation was one of fundamentals of the Contact Experiment with Adam, after all. Even the poor suckers of the Katsuragi Team knew it was going to happen; they just didn't know how ugly things were going to get (in the roughly 36 minutes that followed) until it was too late.

Originally posted on: 02-Mar-2006, 00:13 GMT

BLACKANGEL32076 wrote:>Reichu
I like the “umbilical cord” idea. As for the “bathtubs / Sephirotic Saunas” I'm with Magami on this one. You kinda lost me on the whole “finding/found” issue.

I think I lost myself. (Har har.)

Magami, can you explain this uniforms beezness?

I agree with the “broken glasses=betraying Gendo” angle.

Well, that one is pretty straightforward.

Although for a guy who's supposedly "betrayed", he sure is happy as a lark later, ain't he?

Originally posted on: 01-Mar-2006, 00:20 GMT

Reichu wrote:I think I lost myself. (Har har.)

Magami, can you explain this uniforms beezness?

Grammar, grammar. >.<

moi(fixed) wrote:both realize their lives are worthless

Rei often states herself as worthless, because as a pilot, she can be replaced(literaly). She goes to Termial dogma as her place of "suicide"(morseo the suicide of her individuality, she follows her fate(the moon is a visual cue to this), and relinquishes herself to Shinji, much to Gendo's dismay(who needed her first).
Asuka's meaning in this is more obvious, as she attempts actual suicide. She may call herself worthless(and feel it), but she is still needed by Nerv, and is located because she is needed. She relinquishs herself to her Mama when she wakes up, because it's her fate (well, otherwise she'd die in a way that Asuka's inate personality would NEVER allow.)
At least Asuka comes back physically after death...ironic since she attempted actual suicide...Rei succumbs, Asuka lives.(and yet she is sickened while Rei's smiling(and ghost Rei is watching))

That is what I was trying to say with this:

The suicide-esque folded uniform is just the visual cue relaying to THE END.

The END is the END of the girls(Rei's is also the END of Lilim, and the end of Eva.)

Originally posted on: 01-Mar-2006, 00:46 GMT

Reichu wrote:What "Lilith-type genes"? The first Rei was formed out of Yui Juice inside EVA-01's entry plug as a result of a failed salvage operation. How were Lilith genes going to get inside the plug?

Subsequent Rei look exactly the same as the first one -- they were just generated in a different manner.

Falling apart because of hanging around Lilith too long? I guess I'll mull over that one.

Lilith uses the same process as a plant does by budding Rei 'clones' right?

How is it possible for none of Lilith's genetic material to end up in Rei at all during this process?

Originally posted on: 01-Mar-2006, 14:52 GMT

Zugzwang wrote:Lilith uses the same process as a plant does by budding Rei 'clones' right?

How is it possible for none of Lilith's genetic material to end up in Rei at all during this process?

She's a hybrid of Yui and Lilith right? Yui wasn't an albino, that pale skin color came from somewhere right? Lilith's genetic material. She also inherited the super strong ATF generation and the regeneration technique. I'd say she definetly has some of Lilith in her.

Originally posted on: 01-Mar-2006, 15:40 GMT

Zugzwang wrote:Lilith uses the same process as a plant does by budding Rei 'clones' right?

How is it possible for none of Lilith's genetic material to end up in Rei at all during this process?

The genesis of Rei 1 did NOT physically involve Lilith; the kid was an inadvertent product of the failed salvage operation of 2015. We're told the basics in #20, and left to extrapolate the rest: They (well, Gendo, anyway) attempted to get Yui out of EVA-01 and back into the entry plug so that her original body could be reconstructed from the "Yui Juice" that remained. Yui didn't budge, so, for reasons as yet undetermined, the essence of Lilith's soul was sucked out of its body instead -- permitted by the fact that EVA-01 was still connected to her mother at the time -- and a new, Yui-based entity was created: Rei 1.

Subsequent Rei are effectively clones of Rei 1, just made out of the substance of Lilith's body. This is why Rei 3 exhibits...

Seele08 wrote:the super strong ATF generation and the regeneration technique.

The pigmentation deviations that physically differentiate Rei from Yui are only superficially "albinic"; the "pale skin, red eyes" condition just seems to be the way the Seeds are. ("The Fifth Children looks like me... Why?") I'm not certain as to the exact explanation, but I'm willing to bet it's got something to do with metaphysical biology. Considering MPB is a real science in the show, an explanation involving it ought to prove quite sufficient.

And it would be an interesting contrast to how Kaworu was created, too.

Originally posted on: 01-Mar-2006, 16:46 GMT

Reichu wrote:so, for reasons as yet undetermined, the essence of Lilith's soul was sucked out of its body instead -- permitted by the fact that EVA-01 was still connected to her mother at the time -- and a new, Yui-based entity was created: Rei 1.

Here's a thought I had on this not long ago (though I doubt if there's any way to prove it one way or the other): perhaps Yui somehow herded Lilith's soul into Rei 1. Everything else seems to be going according to Yui's plan, why not this as well? Do you think you could come up with a justification for this theory? For some reason I find it strangly appealing; perhaps because it attributes to Yui an occurence that proved vital to the realization of her plans.

Originally posted on: 01-Mar-2006, 17:49 GMT

It certainly would make sense, and the procedure masked as an attempt to rescue Yui would have made the perfect cover-up. Seele might never have known that Lilith's soul was not in its body.

Originally posted on: 01-Mar-2006, 19:25 GMT

Didn't SEELE know that Lilith's soul wasn't in the body, didn't they say something to the affect of that Lilith's soul needed to be put back in her body in 24?

Originally posted on: 02-Mar-2006, 08:44 GMT

OMF wrote:It certainly would make sense, and the procedure masked as an attempt to rescue Yui would have made the perfect cover-up. Seele might never have known that Lilith's soul was not in its body.

That's not exactly what I was saying. I think that the rescue attempt was genuine. Just look at Gendo's demeanor in ep. 21. But when they somehow created Rei's body instead of re-creating Yui's, she saw an (unexpected?) opportunity and put Lilith's soul into the vessel they had created for her instead of entering it herself. She would probably have done the same even if they had re-created her original body.
I don't believe that Gendo and the others had any idea what they were going to get until they got it.

I do agree that they would do everything in their power to prevent Seele from learning Rei's nature, but I don't think that they were cooperating with the disolved Yui to capture Lilith's soul, making the rescue attempt just a cover-up, if that's what you're saying.

Originally posted on: 01-Mar-2006, 21:02 GMT

I suppose a precedent for what you propose would have already been set, in a sense, by what happens to Shinji in #20. But how on Earth would Yui have any power over a soul as ludicrously powerful as Lilith's, and what would the motivation be?

Originally posted on: 01-Mar-2006, 21:50 GMT