Lilith & Her Mask

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:54 pm

AuraTwilight wrote:For most life, yes, an AT Field is required, but Adam, Lilith, and the other Angels, leave behind perfectly intact bodies, whether dead or alive, even when their souls, and thus AT Fields were missing. If Adam and Lilith needed AT Fields like we did, then they'd have both melted into Tang when Kaworu and Rei were born.

You haven't seen Rebuild have you? This is actually a moment of horrid contridiction when you think about it. Shamshiel's body collapsed when his core cracked, yet Lilith has no such issue with lacking a soul. Nice huh? I look forward to a non BS answer to this crap...
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Postby Reichu » Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:51 pm

Lilith mastered whatever trick Shamshel's whips and Ramiel's "shards" did.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:16 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:
AuraTwilight wrote:For most life, yes, an AT Field is required, but Adam, Lilith, and the other Angels, leave behind perfectly intact bodies, whether dead or alive, even when their souls, and thus AT Fields were missing. If Adam and Lilith needed AT Fields like we did, then they'd have both melted into Tang when Kaworu and Rei were born.

You haven't seen Rebuild have you? This is actually a moment of horrid contridiction when you think about it. Shamshiel's body collapsed when his core cracked, yet Lilith has no such issue with lacking a soul. Nice huh? I look forward to a non BS answer to this crap...


It's called an "alternate continuity", which means it can have alternate metaphysics if it wants. It's better not to argue crap with Rebuild until we get all the data.

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:32 pm

Reichu wrote:Lilith mastered whatever trick Shamshel's whips and Ramiel's "shards" did.

Yeah, that's stupid too.

AuraTwilight wrote:It's called an "alternate continuity", which means it can have alternate metaphysics if it wants.

Well Aura, this is the Rebuild section and this thread is talking about Rebuild Lilith. Dragging series physics into a thread about Rebuild Lilith is a little pointless.
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Postby Reichu » Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:26 am

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:Yeah, that's stupid too.

This is a little ambiguous: Which is stupid? My "suggestion", or the fact that Rebuild has the Angels, as a consequence of A.T. Field "Failure", turn into a red fluid with the exception of, well, whichever parts of them don't?
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:02 am

Do you really need to ask? The lack of consistency is quite annoying...
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Postby Zaiku » Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:48 am

Perhaps Lilith does not collapse, as Lillith is a more powerful angel than Shamshel and all the others (apart from Adam.) Or, there will be a non-BS reason in a future rebuild movie, I suppose we must simply wait and see.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:35 pm

Zaiku wrote:Or, there will be a non-BS reason in a future rebuild movie

With Anno's track record in NGE I really doubt that...
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Postby Zaiku » Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:59 pm

It doesn't really have to make sense though, does it? I mean really, there is a lot of things in NGE that fans have to interpret for themselves, this may be one of those things. Maybe...
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:49 pm

Zaiku wrote:It doesn't really have to make sense though, does it?

Wow, that's a loaded question. And I say it does within reason. For example, if it's a story about magic then I'm not looking for an explaination because it's, well, magic. But if you want to make your own pseudo-sciences I want to know how they work. Don't pull the it's magic crap if you use pseudo-sciences. It's insulting and wreaks of laziness. Then there is the matter of intentional fudging of physics for dramatic effect with no reasonable answer given for the impossible results. Suspension of disbelief only goes so far and the farther they push it the more annoyed the viewers get. Just go look at the story for the spear they gave us. No one likes it because it's just stupid. No one likes retarded survivals. These tropes are old and tired and they refuse to realise it. There are many people that are sick of series because of such things and only read or view on because the feel some sort of twisted obligation to something they once loved. I can ignore this sort of thing when I watch a show but when I look back in an analytical light it agitates me to no end. But none of this applies here. It's not a matter of making sense, it's a matter of being internally consistant. Take the Evas mass shifting for instance. Now I don't expect them to get the art exact from episode to episode, this isn't CGI after all, but there is simpily no excuse for the Evas to suddely be hundreds of feet smaller than they were in previous episodes only to return to their original size the next episode. Some things just push it too far.
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Postby Reichu » Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:06 am

10 posts since I said "topic".
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Postby Reichu » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:41 pm

Okay, I've unlocked this because I have some little tidbits to add.

Finally got around to scanning some of the things from the huge 1.0 book (Complete Records Collection). First up on the posting itinerary are the revised genga for Lilith (which aren't full drawings or anything, just the parts that were actually modified):

- Lilith full-length view
- Lilith closeup

First thing to notice here -- check out the label on the second image. "Mask of 2nd Angel Lilith." I take this to actually mean that Lilith is still wearing a mask after all. (For the sake of comparison, I've seen Sachiel's so-called mask referred to as "head", i.e., they go ahead and say it's a part of his body.)

Second thing to notice: look inside the "eyes". Having trouble? 600dpi closeup:

Image

This was printed fairly small in the book, so the detail isn't very crisp, but you should be able to make out a little Seele emblem inside each eye. Pretty crazy, huh? I don't think any of us would've been able to guess they were there from the crappy DVD alone, but, now that we have the genga, let's take another look...

Image

Image

You can just barely see it in the eye that's not cast in shadow -- but there it is, drawn in red.

I'll put up some of the things that didn't make it in presently.
Last edited by Reichu on Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:45 pm

Dawww, I was hoping it was her actual face! :( Oh well. Very interesting--especially the bit about the Seele emblem eyes.
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Postby Ramiel² » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:50 pm

Never noticed it, definitelly Interesting

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Postby Action_Bastard » Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:43 pm

Maybe the "eye-masks" are to prevent Lilith from using the sort of eye-beams we have seen other angels use in the past. Or not, but who knows?


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Postby Reichu » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:08 pm

PLEASE REFRAIN FROM CONTINUING THE TANGENT THAT GOT THIS THREAD LOCKED. Common sense, folks. (Or Otakon 08 Ikari, specifically.)

Action_Bastard wrote:Maybe the "eye-masks" are to prevent Lilith from using the sort of eye-beams we have seen other angels use in the past.

Eva-02 creates a Sachiel/Zeruel-esque cross-shaped explosion in EoE despite the fact that her entire head is covered, for whatever that is worth.

Now for the unused stuff.

- Anno's drafts ("tentative proposals"): The one on top is rather straightforward, with Sachiel-like eyes and the Seele emblem on the forehead; and it maintains the "moon craters" of Lilith's original mask. (That would have been a nice touch, come to think of it.) Not much to say on the second. Third = WTF? There's, like, pegs coming out of her eyes, a tube sticking out of her navel, her lower body is a bean sack, and what's going on with the patterning on her skin? (Note on the side you can see doodles for the "Seele logos in the eyes" and the scar.)

- Concept by Yamashita: More "WTF" territory. Most obvious things to point out are the, uh, "excavations", or whatever, in the solar plexus area. Almost looks like a core and two nucleolae would fit in. But, of course, this isn't what shows up in the movie; we get the much less explicable "weird scar across the upper chest" instead.

- Concepts by Okama - A, B: First file is big. Okay, this one is the squickiest, and the most WTF of them all. It's so WTF that I'm just going to say two things: What a lovely idea for what lurks beneath Lilith's mask, and check out the little hands.

Enjoy. (Expect Shamshel next, in a different thread, sometime.)
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Postby NAveryW » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:15 pm

Thank you so much for the uploads, Reichu. These are awesome, and I find it rather disappointing that they didn't use one of these (or a combination of a few of them) for the final movie. It would have added an extra creepiness to something that we've seen before.

EDIT: Oh yes, and I'm guessing that the umbilical cord would have been left over from Unit 01's birth, based on stuff from the original series. Just a guess. It doesn't really matter now that the umbilical cord idea was never used.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:15 pm

Lilith's face being nothing but eyeballs is certainly creepy. I'm almost hoping it'll be used at some point in a later film just for a WTF factor.
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Postby Action_Bastard » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:17 pm

Those are the WTFs of all the WTFs.
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Postby NAveryW » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:24 pm

Woah, I completely missed the "SEELE logos in Lilith's eyes" post. That's awesome. It's nice to know that they at least hid more "secret" details in Lilith's redesign even though they didn't use any of the fantastic creepy stuff.

EDIT: Oh yes, and the scars across the chest still imply some kind of surgery. Since it's right where the Yamashita version shows what appears to be a removed core, that still probably figures in somewhere.
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