Your first viewing of "End Of Evangelion??"

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Postby Zuggy » Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:02 pm

Eva Yojimbo wrote:I don't find them flat and boring at all. What makes them flat and boring? I mean, elaborate and provide some examples/arguments.

Rei is the best example. What happened to that wonderfully intricate character in the TV series? She abandons Gendo and goes to Shinji... nothing else really jumps out at me when thinking about what happened in E.O.E. I can't think of any times when her character shone through, no, she was just standing around naked. I can't think of any times when she resembled the Rei III in the TV series who was far more afflicted.

What happened to Asuka? Asuka was an interesting character, but then in E.O.E. she gets turned into this 1-dimensional killing machine. She comes back from her comatose state with some help from her mother and kills lots of people as well as fights with the MP Evangelions, who then kill and eat her. From this I can only guess the entire point of her being in the series was to become reunited with her mother and give Shinji enough time to get into EVA-01 before getting killed off - which any fan of Asuka will tell you isn't true. I'm not sure what reason Asuka is there for on the beach with Shinji at the end, but by then I didn't care.

Misato drags Shinji around and is immediately killed off, and gets a really cheesy and cliched last line. Ritsuko gets a cheesy death too - it's as-if Anno didn't know what to do with either of them. Compare these to Kaji's death in the TV series, which was far more interesting (because he diverted the Adam sample from Seele to Gendo, he was digging too deep, and freeing Fuyutsuki from Seele's grasp put the last nail in his coffin) and has actual repercussions for Misato and Shinji. Misato's death makes Shinji cry and he bears her cross while in EVA-01, but I got no clear idea as to how it really affected him or what the point of it was.

Do I really have to keep writing?

Eva Yojimbo wrote:Well, they practically are pieces in a game of chess. But I don't think this is anything new to EoE. In fact, we've been shown a great many times throughout the series the helplessness of these characters. Yes, there are times when their actions, inactions and reactions have an effect on what happens, but there are just as many times when they lost control and become merely puppets and spectators of events and beings out of their control (ep. 16, 18, 20, 24).

You're wrong. There is no episode in the TV series that is like E.O.E., that is, where the characters are moved around in a very contrived way.

Eva Yojimbo wrote:In fact, EoE makes what I think is a powerful statement about...

... and this is about where your post becomes unreadable.

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Postby simon » Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:00 pm

Zuggy

You just summarized the story in EoE and using a critic style added your own personal hatred to the facts.

I can do the same with every single movie out there, just give me the title of your favourite one.

Pulp Fiction?

(the beginning of the movie, Jules and Vincent go to retrieve some drugs, a well known scene)

Jules enters a room and shoots with the help of his friend Vincent Vega 3 people. He gets turned into this 1-dimensional killing machine. Don't you think?

Does my 'argument', wherever it hides, make one of the best scenes ever made crap? We all know that there's more to the scene, so how did I make it sound so dull? It's obvious.

It's not enough to give us a fact Rei appears in EoE and base on it the feeling she sucked.

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Postby IrkenEvangelion » Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:07 pm

Zuggy wrote:From this I can only guess the entire point of her being in the series was to become reunited with her mother and give Shinji enough time to get into EVA-01 before getting killed off - which any fan of Asuka will tell you isn't true.


And it's not.

Zuggy wrote:I'm not sure what reason Asuka is there for on the beach with Shinji at the end, but by then I didn't care.


Well that's a pretty close-minded statement.
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Postby Zuggy » Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:23 pm

simon wrote:You just summarized the story in EoE and using a critic style added your own personal hatred to the facts.

I can do the same with every single movie out there, just give me the title of your favourite one.

The part of Jimbo's post I was replying to was this -

Eva Yojimbo wrote:I don't find them flat and boring at all. What makes them flat and boring? I mean, elaborate and provide some examples/arguments.

I did my best to answer Jimbo's question.

simon wrote:Jules enters a room and shoots with the help of his friend Vincent Vega 3 people. He gets turned into this 1-dimensional killing machine. Don't you think?

Does my 'argument', wherever it hides, make one of the best scenes ever made crap? We all know that there's more to the scene, so how did I make it sound so dull? It's obvious.

The difference between what you wrote there and what I wrote is that you didn't show the difference between how a character usually is and how they are portrayed differently elsewhere. I'm not sure whether you weren't paying attention to what you were reading or whether you are just trying to start an argument.

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Postby mrpanda » Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:49 pm

I can understand where zuggys comming from, the thing with EOE is that it had to be condensed into 90 minutes whereas the material there could of made another half a series. This is why i prefer the tv ending although i dod think the two work best together if i had to pick it would be the tv ending because although it doesnt have the huge battle scenes etc it ties together the loose emotional ends which is what i feel the series is all about.

And about the first half of the series, i know what your talking about yojimbo but for me it can get annoyingly generic at times.
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Postby NAveryW » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:36 pm

I don't think that what happens in EoE makes the characters "one-dimensional", as their actions seemed (to me) to be logical results of their personalities and the situations surrounding them.

Rei did a lot more than Zuggy said she did, because it is important to keep in mind that, for the second half of EoE, Rei is Lilith, and Lilith certainly does much more than just stand around naked.

The corniness/pathos of Ritsuko's and Misato's deaths is extremely subjective. What one person finds deeply moving another person will find narmy and contrived. A good example from the series that divides many people is the case of Kaworu. Certain entire series are like this, such as Elfen Lied (the intense violence comes off as horrifying to some and hilariously over-the-top to others).
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Postby Sharaz Destler » Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:34 pm

mrpanda wrote:if i had to pick it would be the tv ending because although it doesnt have the huge battle scenes etc it ties together the loose emotional ends which is what i feel the series is all about.


That, and most of the cast is still alive. You can't possibly go wrong with that.
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Postby NAveryW » Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:34 pm

Sharaz Destler wrote:That, and most of the cast is still alive. You can't possibly go wrong with that.
The cast is no more or less alive than they are in EoE. Everyone in EoTV is still in Instrumentality according to that white-text-on-black. Misato and Ritsuko were still shot in EoTV, though you don't see why or by whom.
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Postby Sharaz Destler » Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:49 pm

NAveryW wrote:The cast is no more or less alive than they are in EoE. Everyone in EoTV is still in Instrumentality according to that white-text-on-black. Misato and Ritsuko were still shot in EoTV, though you don't see why or by whom.


I may have to go back and check on that later this week. One of us is obviously confused, and I think it's me.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:30 am

Sharaz Destler wrote:I may have to go back and check on that later this week.


These are WTF enough when they show up that I'm surprised that they get missed -- times into episode 25:

10m38s : Ritsuko in the LCL
10m43s : Misato KIA

Those fleeting glimpses (and of Asuka in the lake around the 6m15s mark) are the bits that tell you that there is a lot more else going on in the material world than the TV ending is showing you.
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Postby Sharaz Destler » Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:35 pm

Hang on--are we talking about the original TV episodes or the Director's Cut episodes?
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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:57 pm

The Director's Cut episodes were padded with material to smooth the transition from the on-air narrative to EoE (episodes 25' and 26'). For that very reason there were no revised versions of on-air 25 and 26 apart from better mastering (Renewal) and subtitles (Platinum = Renewal in the US). No mysterious extra footage.

Those times are from my original DVD from the end of '03.
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Postby Ironfoot » Sun Aug 31, 2008 3:15 pm

My first viewing was basically a friend telling me to watch something that was completely messed up. He then showed me EoE, with me having never watched the Eva series itself and yes, it was pretty messed up. It wasn't until years later that I got into the series itself.

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:02 am

Zuggy wrote:She abandons Gendo and goes to Shinji...
Her entire development throughout NGE has led up to that decision. As far as what happens to her, what about those shots of her in her room before leaving to go to Gendo and the broken glasses? There's more wonderful, nuanced Rei for ya.

Zuggy wrote: nothing else really jumps out at me when thinking about what happened in E.O.E.
Well THERE'S your problem![/Jamie Hyneman]

Zuggy wrote:I can't think of any times when her character shone through, no, she was just standing around naked. I can't think of any times when she resembled the Rei III in the TV series who was far more afflicted.
Like usual a lot is revealed through very little. We see her mentally suffering over the impending decision in ep. 25, then we see her decision in EoE:

"I'm not your doll... because I'm not you... Ikari is calling me... I'm home"

is really all we get from Rei in EoE. That's the totality of what her character has lead up to. And, as it should be, Rei returns her origins (just like all the characters).

Zuggy wrote:Asuka was an interesting character, but then in E.O.E. she gets turned into this 1-dimensional killing machine.
I think you're conveniently missing all the scenes between her and Shinji in P3II and Instrumentality. Again, the series has lead up to her broken psyche we see in EoE. And her actions and words in the final scene say more than a whole film full of dialogue could.

Zuggy wrote:She comes back from her comatose state with some help from her mother and kills lots of people as well as fights with the MP Evangelions, who then kill and eat her. From this I can only guess the entire point of her being in the series was to become reunited with her mother and give Shinji enough time to get into EVA-01 before getting killed off - which any fan of Asuka will tell you isn't true.
As said above, this criticism isn't fair. For one, I don't think it's possible to treat EoE as anything but the end of the series. Let's say, for instance, that EoE had been the original ep. for 25 and 26. Nobody would be complaining about the changed characters because everyone would recognize it was merely a continuation of what had built up to there. It seems a bit silly that you're wanting what came in the middle of the series to occur at the end. The end is the payoff of what's been built up. Any more build-up would be needlessly excessive. I mean, hell, we got 45 minutes of exposition in 25/26. EoE is the narrative conclusion, anything other than a visual and sensual one would've killed it.

Zuggy wrote:Misato drags Shinji around and is immediately killed off, and gets a really cheesy and cliched last line.
Misato, like the rest of them, got explored in 25/26. EoE is the physical end to her character and not much more.

Zuggy wrote:Ritsuko gets a cheesy death too
lolwut? How is her death cheesy? She finally decides to take her revenge and, in a rather brilliant move, the relationship between her, Gendo, and her mother comes to a head.

Zuggy wrote:it's as-if Anno didn't know what to do with either of them.
I think he knew they were all going to die from the get-go. I mean, NGE being very much inspired by Ideon and all. I just don't get the problem you have with their deaths. How else would you have Misato die? She dies protecting and sacrificing for Shinji. That's why her cross becomes such an important symbol for both her and Shinji (again, conveniently tying a much more complex relationship through a simple yet effective symbol). For Ritsuko again we bring this complex relationship between her, her mother, and Gendo to a close with a simple act of attempted revenge, failure, betrayal, and a deliciously ambiguous (though brilliant, IMO) hushed line. What more could you possibly want?

Zuggy wrote:Compare these to Kaji's death in the TV series, which was far more interesting and has actual repercussions for Misato and Shinji.
I can't see anything more significant about Kaji's death than that of Ritsuko or Misato in EoE.

Zuggy wrote:Misato's death makes Shinji cry and he bears her cross while in EVA-01, but I got no clear idea as to how it really affected him or what the point of it was.
The cross is a symbol of sacrifice. Shinji immediately just feels sad for Misato's death (he obviously cared for her), but while in the Eva the cross becomes a reminder of that sacrifice. He can't completely convince himself he is worthless and no one cares for him because he looks at the cross and realizes someone was willing to give their life for him. The same is true for Rei, whom gives him the final decision and attempts to mediate the whole process for him.

That's the ultimate irony: Here is this character who's surrounded by people willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for him, yet he's to blind to realize it. That's the significance of Misato's and Rei's "deaths" in EoE.

Zuggy wrote:There is no episode in the TV series that is like E.O.E., that is, where the characters are moved around in a very contrived way.
Lol, you're JOKING right? Please tell me you're joking. The series being an allegory, first off, pretty much deems that these are contrived characters meant to get a point across. And due to that contrived nature they end up in contrived circumstances where they are but merely pieces on a board. Here's some examples, and let's see if you disagree:

Ep. 16, Shinji is swallowed by an Angel. Everyone's attempt to do anything for him are useless. Shinji resigns himself to death. But a literal "Deus ex Machina" occurs and he's "saved".

Ep. 18, Shinji refuses to kill Toji only to be thwarted by a greater power he has no control over and he sits in NGE screaming helplessly (gee, where else do we see this?).

Ep. 19, Asuka's actions are completely useless against Zeruel, as well as Rei's. Everything they do has no effect. Even Shinji, in perhaps his bravest act, attempts to save everyone, and NGE runs out of power. Helpless again. This is the second obvious "Deus ex Machina".

Ep. 20, Shinji is absorbed into Eva, the attempts to get him back fail, and it's only through Yui's will that Shinji is reborn.

Do I really have to go on or have you got the point?

Zuggy wrote:and this is about where your post becomes unreadable.
It seems to me your only complaint is one of an extreme personal bias about what you want NGE to be rather than what it is and was intended to be.

I mean, feel free to dislike EoE Zuggy. I just don't think it's a legitimate complaint other than on a very subjective level.
Last edited by Eva Yojimbo on Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:05 am

mrpanda wrote:And about the first half of the series, i know what your talking about yojimbo but for me it can get annoyingly generic at times.
Almost every point of interest can only be seen in retrospect. If you focus on the rather simple "melody" of the "annoyingly generic" narrative of the first half then you'll be missing all the subtly brilliant rhythmic, harmonic, and thematic nuances being planted along the way.
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Postby Chrad » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:02 am

I think the generic elements of the show only add to the complete shock that is achieved through the conclusions. The show initially appears to be a strangely lyrical twist on mecha action anime that is also unusually attuned to the psychology of its characters. As it goes on it digs deeper and deeper into itself until the extremes of its conclusions.

EoTV is an incredible ending for me. Thrillingly radical in its aesthetic. I loved the idealism of its message of self-acceptance. It truly struck a chord with me and left me happy in a way that few shows or films can. To this day I still love it.

The End of Evangelion, on the other hand, is truly something else. It got to me. The opening half is just a pure shock to the system. It was extremely accomplished and had a visceral emotional impact. The Air/Asuka vs MP-EVAs battle gave me chills. The sense of events spiraling out of the control of the characters (what Zuggy feels is Anno moving his characters like chess pieces) was terrifying. The creeping fear of death surrounding the events is nerve racking. Above all, it was painful on a gut level. Despite their flaws, I'd grown to love these characters, and seeing these characters killed off with such brutality and (for lack of a better word) efficiency left me feeling numb.

My Pure Heart For You is indeed, as many others have said, extremely strange, especially if you demand a straight narrative conclusion, but I felt that only in doing away with such restrictions (as in the TV ending) can Eva be given the ending it deserves. Through the stream of consciousness style an amazing level of psychological undercurrents that throughout the series are brought to the surface in an incredibly quick amount of time. This depth of analysis was burdened by no taboos and was discomfortingly relatable (which I think has played a big role in the way the show has been violently rejected by a large portion of new anime fans, interested in action and ecchi and little else, certainly not being challenge on a personal level). The kitchen scene is one of the most painful to watch scenes in film for me. It's rare to be confronted in entertainment with so much honesty. The Komm Susser Tod sequence is astonishing in the way it hammers home the fragility of life and (another strange thing to be confronted with in an entertainment) the seemingly contradictory beauty in death. The music cue is, as per usual, amazing.
Shinji's ultimate choice seemed a little rushed to me (and this is still one of my biggest complaints about the film; I wish Anno had left in or tightened a lot of what was cut). But it was moving nonetheless (especially the image of a world growing anew that appears as Rei and Kaworu speak to Shinji. After the hell that has preceded, the sudden burst of happiness in the group photo choked me up a bit (I'll admit it).
While its presentation doesn't have the inspirational uplift that it possessed in the television ending, the idealism of the message Rei Kaworu and Yui impart to Shinji is made more powerful after we have been unflinchingly shown the extremes of human suffering. Shinji's return to life and saying goodbye to the utopic world of peace in instrumentality is wonderfully bittersweet.

The final sequence is an elegant enigma, but upon viewing it I didn't know at all what to make of it. It seemed confusing, contradictory, and harsh. In retrospect it makes sense: that's the point.

Despite the strongl impact the film had upon me as I watched it, once it had ended I was left in a state of disbelief. I felt like I'd been completely drained emotionally. I had been disturbed, but I felt strangely at ease. This truly was 'The End of Evangelion'. As frustrating as it seemed, after the final title card there was nothing more that Anno had to or could say about Evangelion. I slept well.

The next day, the film haunted me. It was so condensed with observations about human nature and possessed such an immediate impact that it was hard to clear its mysteries from my head. I now understand it much more (on an emotional level and in term of its purpose mostly) and I realise the reason it had such an effect: it has an incredible level of honesty about relationships and life that is unusual to be confronted with. I spent a hugh amount of time going back over the final scene in my head. I now view it as a complex reflection of the harshness and contradictions of life. I think I subconsciously understood everything about the film on first viewing (appropriately, given that Anno deals largely in the subconscious) but it took a while for that understanding to be made conscious for me. But I won't complain. Why should anyone when faced with a work this rich?

Sorry about the long, verbose nature of this post but EoE was very important and personal for me, and its very difficult to express these things eloquently.

Anyway, both endings to Evangelion are amazing, important and essential. I love both and wouldn't take the conclusion any other way.

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Postby simon » Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:56 am

No need to be sorry. ;]

I understand you because I had similar feelings. Would you agree that it was kind of catharsis like experience? :>

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Postby Chrad » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:35 pm

That's a very good way of putting it.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:10 pm

I gotta agree with both Simon and Chrad; I know EoTV/EoE made me feel that way and still do.
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Postby Rhyno » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:51 pm

Chrad wrote:I spent a hugh amount of time going back over the final scene in my head. I now view it as a complex reflection of the harshness and contradictions of life.
I spent much time contemplating the final scene as well. It seemed contradictory to me upon my first viewing. There seemed to be a positive message about opening yourself up to other people, and then the choke scene happened. I didn't know how to interpret it. It took me a while to realize that it meant you take the good with the bad. Just because other people can hurt you doesn't me you shouldn't open yourself up to them. You will never realize the joys of life if you aren't willing to also make yourself vulnerable to the pains.

Very well put in your post Chrad.


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