Depth of Shinji and Asuka's relationship

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Postby AuraTwilight » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:04 am

Lucretius wrote:
Reichu wrote: I wonder if the fans that have Shinji and Asuka adoringly walking hand-in-hand down that desolate beach (if not making out right after the choking scene or whatever) have just destroyed any sense of perspective I have on this issue.


That sounds eerily similar to the ending of NGE 64. :vomit_duo:


ONE OF the endings.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:07 am

Reichu wrote:I wonder why people as utterly fracked up as Shinji and Asuka, and with so little promise for a meaningful relationship, attract so many who want them to be together anyway.
...
but Shinji and Asuka never actually had anything in that sense, so there's nothing to root for.


Those are supposed to be my lines. :D

Rhyno wrote:The message I took is that people have the ability to hurt one another by isolating ourselves and therefore isolating others.


I took it as a warning -- sink into your own depression, and don't be surprised if your world goes to hell around you while you're not watching.

Reichu wrote:I used to think the evidence pointed to some clear-cut "conclusion", but it has indeed become overwhelmingly apparent how susceptible something like Shinji and Asuka's relationship is to projection on all sides. I really want to know what Anno was trying to "achieve" with this giant mess, and I doubt it can be terribly straightforward.


Indeed -- somewhere in the last couple of years our positions seem to have started to converge.

NemZ wrote:
Anonymous_Evafan wrote:If they could walk away they would have.


um... when has that been an option?


QFMFT (well, technically, Shinji could have gone back to his original assigned billet as Asuka suggested when she moved in with Misato, but Kaji put the mockers on that one).

Even at the end, it looks like she's stuck with the same lack of choice -- nobody at all or him again.

NemZ wrote:
Rhyno wrote:That is certainly a valid point of view, however I think it is a bit presumptuous to state that is "clearly did not occur".


I was referring to dialog changes. You can argue some of it may have happened off-camera, but clearly the alternate ending did not occur as written, hence alternate.


This way, madness lies. Using this sort of reasoning, you could equally argue that Shinji's "Now I've lost it" expression is because some days before, the "severed arm" ending had played out.

Eric Blair wrote:Because they want to believe in a happy ending, you know, the kind were it doesn't end in despair?


Personally, I blame Hollywood.
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Postby Eric Blair » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:16 am

Mr. Tines wrote:Personally, I blame Hollywood.


I actually think the first bastard to use the "happy ending" in the form of "Deliverance" was the guy who wrote the "Apocalypse"... further down the road, we can blame the Brothers Grimm and Charles Perrault...
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Postby Mr. Tines » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:25 am

Not so much the first-ever happy ending, but the obvious source of an unrelenting stream of happy-ever-after at all costs.
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Postby Eric Blair » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:31 am

The usual suspects, SAW, and The [Faithfully] Departed would disagree...
On the other hand "Mamma Mia" does bring certain credence to your claims
In this time of Rebuild, I'm proud to be one of the few fans of the original NGE, and one of the last proud fans of Asuka Langley Soryu.
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Postby Rhyno » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:55 am

Mr. Tines wrote:Not so much the first-ever happy ending, but the obvious source of an unrelenting stream of happy-ever-after at all costs.
Honestly, I don't think I'm searching for a "happy-ever-after at all costs". I think we both walk away from Evangelion with a different message.
Rhyno wrote:The message I took is that people have the ability to hurt one another by isolating ourselves and therefore isolating others.
Mr. Tines wrote:I took it as a warning -- sink into your own depression, and don't be surprised if your world goes to hell around you while you're not watching.
We each got something different out of an interpretive show. Is one point of view actually invalid? Can someone actually dictate whether there is or isn't a happy ending when the ending is, indeed, vague?
Mr. Tines wrote:This way, madness lies. Using this sort of reasoning, you could equally argue that Shinji's "Now I've lost it" expression is because some days before, the "severed arm" ending had played out.
That could also be an interpretation, however certainly something happened off camera to cause the marker to be knocked over. Is it really unreasonable to insert your own theories about what happened off camera? I'm not asking other people to accept the alternate ending along with me. I merely stating the reasons why I believe the way I believe about the relationship between Asuka and Shinji. If we are restricted to discuss only things that happened on camera, many theories and beliefs on this website would be immediately invalidated.

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Postby Eric Blair » Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:15 am

The problems seems to be that you cannot even consider a somewhat bittersweet or quasi hopeful ending because Eva is all about the hopelessness and bitter ending... or at least that is the widespread consensus here, it appears, which is why in the case of how deep is Shinji's and Asuka's relationship you cannot say "Shinji will eventually be able to grow over his own fears and Asuka will eventually learn to forgive herself" because... well... you cannot have a happy ending with eva... just death and despair.
That's the reason why a lot of people hate a certain doujinshi that wanted to go THAT way
In this time of Rebuild, I'm proud to be one of the few fans of the original NGE, and one of the last proud fans of Asuka Langley Soryu.
Avatar: A fighting boy meets girl on a one night stand, walking into the blue, ending day by day as they dance in a very merry Christmas, continuing on my own as a burning one man force while you come and make my day approaching in the nick of time and always, stand by me.

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Postby Chrad » Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:42 am

I believe Shinji and Asuka do in fact have a deep relationship which is of great importance narratively and thematically to the EoE, but I don't think it needs to end with the two 'finding happiness' together. I read the final scene and presentation of the Shinji/Asuka relationship therein as a metaphor for the realities of life. Shinji's strangling of Asuka is an act of hate, and her caress is an act of love. The two contradict each other. Life is full of pain and hardships. It is not easy, and there are no happy endings. Instead there is a struggle. Shinji and Asuka are not a healthy couple, but they are an inevitable one because, whether due to psychological defects or not, they need each other.

To me, Shinji winding up with Asuka on that beach is important for a number of reasons. For one, it is linked in with the central theme of his leaving behind of the 'mother'. In the womb-like existence of instrumentality Anno links this concept of the mother and an eternal painless state of bliss. Shinji rejects this an accepts the harshness of life. Therefore, he must end up with Asuka. The two are constantly at odds with each other and seem incapable of finding 'happiness in each other's arms' or anything like that. Their relationship is painful and confusing, but it exists. Moments of pain exist and moments of happiness (sincere moments) exist, and this is all part of the reality that Shinji chose. Despite everything, he needs Asuka as much as she needs him.

I find that much more beautiful (and meaningful) than any waffy 'hand-holding endless love together forever' ending could ever be.

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Postby Lucretius » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:04 am

Chrad wrote:I believe Shinji and Asuka do in fact have a deep relationship which is of great importance narratively and thematically to the EoE, but I don't think it needs to end with the two 'finding happiness' together. I read the final scene and presentation of the Shinji/Asuka relationship therein as a metaphor for the realities of life. Shinji's strangling of Asuka is an act of hate, and her caress is an act of love. The two contradict each other. Life is full of pain and hardships. It is not easy, and there are no happy endings. Instead there is a struggle. Shinji and Asuka are not a healthy couple, but they are an inevitable one because, whether due to psychological defects or not, they need each other.

To me, Shinji winding up with Asuka on that beach is important for a number of reasons. For one, it is linked in with the central theme of his leaving behind of the 'mother'. In the womb-like existence of instrumentality Anno links this concept of the mother and an eternal painless state of bliss. Shinji rejects this an accepts the harshness of life. Therefore, he must end up with Asuka. The two are constantly at odds with each other and seem incapable of finding 'happiness in each other's arms' or anything like that. Their relationship is painful and confusing, but it exists. Moments of pain exist and moments of happiness (sincere moments) exist, and this is all part of the reality that Shinji chose. Despite everything, he needs Asuka as much as she needs him.

I find that much more beautiful (and meaningful) than any waffy 'hand-holding endless love together forever' ending could ever be.



QFT. An elagant summary of EoE.

He shuddered a bit, remembering the somewhat creepy level of detail Kaji had gone into, while rubbing a watermelon in a disturbingly sexual way.

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Postby Rhyno » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:40 am

Very good summary indeed Chrad. In fact, I think their relationship sums up the message of having the ability to hurt and love others very adequately... as does your summary. :thumbsup:

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Postby Chrad » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:41 am

Thankyou both. ^_^

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Postby Action_Bastard » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:45 am

Well Chrad, you pretty much summed it up, and beautifully, if I might add. IMHO, I don't think this thread should go on any further from your conclusion. Kudos. :thumbsup:
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Postby Mr. Tines » Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:19 pm

Chrad wrote:they need each other.


I think this is the test that decides whether you are for or against -- if you see genuine need, as opposed to the need of an addict, and an unhealthy co-dependency at the best.
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Postby IrkenEvangelion » Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:11 pm

Good job, Chrad.
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Postby Eric Blair » Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:38 pm

Chrad wrote:

Bravo! :clap:

Mr. Tines wrote:if you see genuine need, as opposed to the need of an addict, and an unhealthy co-dependency at the best.

That is as much true, however the problem is a true need can sometimes be blurred into codependency which makes it all the harder (but all the more challenging at the same time) to see/understand/express/write.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:43 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:QFMFT (well, technically, Shinji could have gone back to his original assigned billet as Asuka suggested when she moved in with Misato, but Kaji put the mockers on that one).

Like I said, she could have walked away while he was asleep. She didn't.

Even at the end, it looks like she's stuck with the same lack of choice -- nobody at all or him again.

Wait, isn't that basicly what I said? There is still an option other than laying down next to him waiting for him to wake up.

I think this is the test that decides whether you are for or against -- if you see genuine need, as opposed to the need of an addict, and an unhealthy co-dependency at the best.

That need can always evolve you know.

NemZ wrote:not any more, obviously. :P

Not at all obviously. :P

kicked down by someone, but not necessarily her

By default there is a 50/50 chance it was her. Add in the alternate ending having her as the culprit and the odds shift in favor of her.

I don't think it's a coincidence.

That's good. I was really worried you were gonna say it was the tide for a minute.

Rei made an appearance for some reason... bringing crazy lonely guy some company whether the chosen candidate wanted it or not?

Why the hell would Rei do that? She made it clear she wanted people to choose for themselves. If she really wants Shinji to be happy forcing Asuka back certainly isn't the answer. She already saw what happens between them the way they were. Repeating that wont help Shinji at all.

I admit this is somewhat reasonable.

If only I could get Tines to say that...
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:58 pm

heh, were you guys just TRYING to cast the SSD Summon Spell? ;) Sorry that these aren't exact quotes of what you all were saying, I'm pressed for time.

AEF wrote:Stuff about Asuka laying next to Shinji after returning


I always saw a parallel between this

Image

and

Image

to be honest. But just so you know, both of them have their eyes open in that latter image/they'e awake. It's possible either or both of them were sleeping earlier though.

A/S keep coming back for more despite everything/they want all of each other or nothing.


Exactly, AEF. Personally, I agree with Eric's statement that their relationship is a mixture of honestly need each other as well as codependency but that doesn't mean the former can't win out if they work on it.

I can't remember who didn't think this was the case, maybe it was Nemz. Either way, Asuka had to float (or in her case, swim) back to shore just like Shinji did. She didn't just magically reembody there, and if that were the case it'd take away the importance of people wanting to return for themselves.

Also, while the gravemarker kicking didn't make it into the ending, it most likely was Asuka instead of Shinji. Hell, the script said Shinji made the grave markers while Last A states Asuka's foot kicks it down, so why wouldn't that be the case for the actual final scene? That's like saying the Entry Plug for Eva-01 wasn't ejected before Yui and Shinji went their separate ways just because it's not obvious/directly stated.

Stuff about the N64 ending: Umm why is Shinji reaching out for Asuka's hand a bad thing? Besides, I've heard the game ending was different for the series to be something different as well as the fact the developers probably didn't want the violence of Shinji strangling her.

Reichu wrote:Stuff about fans and fanfics


Screw them if they don't want see things for how they really are. That goes for any extreme viewpoints. Fanfics are just meant to be a creative outlet for how fans want things to be, it doesn't mean that's how things really are.

tl;dr: I don't see what's so bad about those two being able to find happiness together if they can just get their heads out of their asses and do some serious growing up first. Besides, Anno left those "invisible hand cuffs" on them for whatever reason, even though he did NOT have to end it like that (we could have gotten Last B for crying out loud!). Still, Anno chose to end it with showing them together--make of that what you will.
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Postby Lucretius » Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:49 pm

Sailor Star Dust wrote:
Stuff about the N64 ending: Umm why is Shinji reaching out for Asuka's hand a bad thing? Besides, I've heard the game ending was different for the series to be something different as well as the fact the developers probably didn't want the violence of Shinji strangling her.



I was being facetious. I actually hope the ending of Rebuild 4.0 will be something like that, assuming Mari doesn't usurp Asuka's place in the narrative.

He shuddered a bit, remembering the somewhat creepy level of detail Kaji had gone into, while rubbing a watermelon in a disturbingly sexual way.

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Postby Formless One » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:09 pm

But just so you know, both of them have their eyes open in that latter image/they'e awake. It's possible either or both of them were sleeping earlier though.

I can see where you're getting that with Shinji, but how can you tell with Asuka? Her eyes are a little too small and blurry in that picture to say that it isn't closed.
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Postby NemZ » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:01 pm

Alternate endings are alternate, and have zero bearing on the actual shown result.

Could these alternate events have happened off camera? Sure, but pretty much -annything- could have happened there so this means nothing. For all we know hello freakin' kitty kicked it down.

How did Asuka (or Shinji, for that matter) end up in this position on the beach? No clue whatsoever... they just are. No footprints in the sand or obvious lingering wetness from swimming means that popping into existence right then and there is as likely as anything else, and the clothing/bandages don't make any sort of clear sense in any situation.

Why does he strangle her? Why does she choose this gesture rather than fighting back? These are questions which we can't completely answer due to not being inside their heads anymore.

So what is the final point of this scene? Whatever you think it is. There are no answers here save those you make yourself.
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