How competent is Asuka, really? (college & piloting)

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Postby Enki v.2 » Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:33 am

Question for someone who knows moonspeak: does this mean college in the US sense ("university") or in the UK sense (what the US would call high school)? Graduating either would be a big deal at her age, but one would be a much bigger deal than the other.

On the other hand, did she ever actually say she GRADUATED? Because if it's just that dialogue snippet ("they never taught me that in college") then perhaps she was just taking some classes at a local university, not actually enrolled, and that would be no stretch of wording.

If I remember correctly, the german system is more similar to the british, with gymnasium (sp?) being roughly the equivalent of british "college" at around 15 or 16, followed by university.

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Postby JimmyWolk » Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:18 am

Don't know moonspeak, but it's "Uni(versität)" in the German version(s), so I guess that's what it is.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:53 pm

Gamer_2k4 has pretty much spelled it out.

Asuka may be intelligent, and believe that makes her mature; but she lacks both maturity and the wisdom that come with it -- in D&D terms, the classic INT18, WIS8 magic user type.

The one thing that Gamer_2k4 has missed in what is a capable summary, is what happened after they eventually got to the cage during the power-out : in her one detached command, Lance Corporal Sohryu managed her team in a direct, capable and effective manner. That also backs up the backstory as a whole -- starting with the little girl at age 3 who was able to comprehend being an elite EVA pilot.
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Postby Monk Ed » Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:32 pm

Enki v.2 wrote:On the other hand, did she ever actually say she GRADUATED?

She does. "Yeah, I graduated last year." So that means unless she graduated in December she could've graduated as early as age 12.

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Postby NemZ » Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:26 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:Asuka may be intelligent, and believe that makes her mature; but she lacks both maturity and the wisdom that come with it -- in D&D terms, the classic INT18, WIS8 magic user type.


I assumed that regardless of the question at hand, honestly. ^_^

in her one detached command, Lance Corporal Sohryu managed her team in a direct, capable and effective manner. That also backs up the backstory as a whole -- starting with the little girl at age 3 who was able to comprehend being an elite EVA pilot.


She has an official rank besides pilot (cannon fodder)?

Yes, she does eventually come up with a decent a workable plan against the least threatening of all angels after an afternoon full of making bad calls, undermining the morale of her 'squad' and whining about her situation. I'll give her credit for that, no problem.

Just because she uses the phrase 'elite pilot' doesn't mean she knows what that is or comprehends what is being asked of her. She just knows it's something special and hopes that will make mommy look at her again.
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Postby Ornette » Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:48 pm

Man... the next time someone comes to a job interview dressed up in a suit, I'm going to deny them the job right away because they're dishonest.

NemZ wrote:Yes, she does eventually come up with a decent a workable plan against the least threatening of all angels after an afternoon full of making bad calls, undermining the morale of her 'squad' and whining about her situation.

I'm looking over the script and I don't see what you mean. Her decisions:
- checking the emergency landline
- to go right instead of left
- then her plan, which was immediate, and not "eventually":
Episode 11 wrote:Asuka:
We're going to beat it, of course.

Shinji:
Sure, but how?
We dropped our rifles, and the battery packs are running out.
They won't last more than another three minutes.

Asuka:
I have a plan.
The one who stays here will be defense.
Their job is to neutralize the AT Field,
and to protect the offensive player from the liquid solvent.
The backup player will go down, pick up the rifles,
and hand them to the offense.
The offense will then fire a volley to destroy the target.
Does that sound good?

Rei:
Fine. I will take the defense.

Asuka:
Sorry, but it's not you.
I'll do it.

- Followed finally by her decision to be the one to physically block the acid or whatever it was.

So it looks to me that it's an afternoon of making 1 bad decision amongst other good ones.


As for her ability to pilot, I recall Shinji saying "Amazing" in reference to her piloting skills.

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Postby NemZ » Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:07 pm

Ornette wrote:Man... the next time someone comes to a job interview dressed up in a suit, I'm going to deny them the job right away because they're dishonest.


I didn't complain about the suit comment, not directly anyway. It isn't a lie to behave in a manner consistent with expectations of a specific situation. It is, however, to act as if you do this all the time. Asuka puts on her act every time he's around, often requiring a 180 in terms of her behavior just prior.

I'm looking over the script and I don't see what you mean. Her decisions:
- checking the emergency landline
- to go right instead of left
- then her plan, which was immediate, and not "eventually":


The idea to call in was Shinji's, at least in the version I have.

Comments from Shinji certainly imply that this is not the first time she's been wrong this afternoon... and Rei actually seems to get annoyed enough at the situation to stop playing follow the leader and just heads in the correct direction. Actually, come to think of it her very first declaration as 'group leader' was to head in the wrong direction, away from the door right next to them leading into the geofront.

It meant eventually in terms of the entire day.

Her last 'decision' is part of the plan, no? same thing.

As for her ability to pilot, I recall Shinji saying "Amazing" in reference to her piloting skills.


...or was he referring to her boldness? At that point in the series Shinji was still rather cautious about the whole business of combat, and he did react noticeably to her "charge!" idea.

Regardless, the series definately shows us the truth of the matter as it progresses.
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Postby Rhyno » Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:53 pm

NemZ wrote:I didn't complain about the suit comment, not directly anyway. It isn't a lie to behave in a manner consistent with expectations of a specific situation. It is, however, to act as if you do this all the time. Asuka puts on her act every time he's around, often requiring a 180 in terms of her behavior just prior.
So, everyone who acts professionally at his/her place of employment on a daily basis (this would be all the time... no?), they are actually lying? It isn't that they are being their professional selves? You do realize that people can have different personalities around different individuals... and it isn't considered lying. Say, you might act different around someone you have a crush on as opposed to your guardian. You call this lying? Even if you consider this lying, this is entirely different than making an intentionally deceitful and false statement about her achievements.

NemZ wrote:Her last 'decision' is part of the plan, no? same thing.
Actually, not really. She lays out the plan to Shinji and Rei. After the plan is laid out, it then comes to who plays offense, defense, and backup. This actually represents multiple aspects of Asuka. She has the assertive personality to take charge and formulate a plan (regardless of how previous events unfolded). She has the intelligence and ability to put together a viable plan under a stressful situation. She then volunteers (actually, demands) for the most dangerous and very important 'position' protecting the offense and backup... probably because she views herself as the most capable pilot.

When looked at under further scrutiny, this scene actually helps substantiate her claim from the episode before as opposed to make me doubt it.

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Postby Monk Ed » Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:34 pm

The thematic feel I got from Asuka in that episode -- and the previous ones -- is that yeah, she can be wrong and headstrong about a lot of things that wind up not mattering much, but when the chips are down she showcases startling competence and ability.

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Postby Ornette » Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:21 pm

NemZ wrote:Comments from Shinji certainly imply that this is not the first time she's been wrong this afternoon...

What comments? He's mostly asking what and where throughout the entire episode. Or do you mean that she keeps repeating herself because it should only take 2 minutes to get to the Geofront?

and Rei actually seems to get annoyed enough at the situation to stop playing follow the leader and just heads in the correct direction. Actually, come to think of it her very first declaration as 'group leader' was to head in the wrong direction, away from the door right next to them leading into the geofront.

Probably more annoyed that it was taking so long as opposed to the supposedly Asuka being constantly wrong, although that annoyance also covers her choosing right instead of listening to Rei.

As for her ability to pilot, I recall Shinji saying "Amazing" in reference to her piloting skills.


...or was he referring to her boldness? At that point in the series Shinji was still rather cautious about the whole business of combat, and he did react noticeably to her "charge!" idea.

He said: "Sheesh, don't order me around! You're the new one!"
to her response of attacking by herself first and telling Shinji to back her up. That doesn't sound like he was too impressed with her boldness.

Oh, I see what you mean. That's in the English dub. She actually says something like "I can do it" (vs. "Charge" in the dub), and the literal translation of Shinji's line is "Good job!", the platinum subs have it as "Amazing!". Not sure how else that can be interpreted.

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Postby NemZ » Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:48 am

Rhyno wrote:So, everyone who acts professionally at his/her place of employment on a daily basis (this would be all the time... no?), they are actually lying? It isn't that they are being their professional selves? You do realize that people can have different personalities around different individuals... and it isn't considered lying. Say, you might act different around someone you have a crush on as opposed to your guardian. You call this lying?


That depends on if they are still being true to themselves or not. When you suppress doing or saying something you really want to because it doesn't fit in with the role you're playing you are lying, yes. The various rules of polite society may forgive and encourage this, but you are still being dishonest.

Even if you consider this lying, this is entirely different than making an intentionally deceitful and false statement about her achievements.


No argument. I never said it was, but rather that it was one of many factors that cause me to doubt Asuka.

She has the intelligence and ability to put together a viable plan under a stressful situation.


Yes, her plan is 'go get the guns we dropped', 'shoot it', and 'i'll cover you'; it's hardly rocket science. Actually, why did they need to throw the gun up to Shinji if it's a straight tunnel? Why not have two of them go down and double the firepower, especially considering that no other angel has ever been taken down by the pathetic pallet rifles before?

Oh, I forgot that they were packing plot ammo that day. my bad.

She then volunteers (actually, demands) for the most dangerous and very important 'position' protecting the offense and backup... probably because she views herself as the most capable pilot.


She flat-out said that she was doing it because she wanted to pay Shinji back for saving her in the volcano, but if you want to assert that she was lying about her motivations I won't stop you. :ting:

Monk Ed wrote:The thematic feel I got from Asuka in that episode -- and the previous ones -- is that yeah, she can be wrong and headstrong about a lot of things that wind up not mattering much, but when the chips are down she showcases startling competence and ability.


How so? In ep 8 she defaulted to expecting Shinji to fix things when the EVA wouldn't move, exactly as he warned her would happen. In 9 she was the one screwing up the training (error message first on her side) and the one who crashed into him on the landing (she's on top)... both of which she tries to blame him for, incidentally. In 10 Shinji is the one who comes up with the coolant plan. For the entire current episode up until her plan she has been actually hampering Rei from getting them where they need to be and otherwise occupying herself by straining her relationships with both her fellow pilots.

Ornette wrote:Or do you mean that she keeps repeating herself because it should only take 2 minutes to get to the Geofront?


Actually I was thinking about the "haven't I heard that 4 times already?" comment just after that.

He said: "Sheesh, don't order me around! You're the new one!"
to her response of attacking by herself first and telling Shinji to back her up. That doesn't sound like he was too impressed with her boldness.


That would be an example of Asuka being overbearing, not bold, and disregarding orders, to boot.

Oh, I see what you mean. That's in the English dub. She actually says something like "I can do it" (vs. "Charge" in the dub), and the literal translation of Shinji's line is "Good job!", the platinum subs have it as "Amazing!". Not sure how else that can be interpreted.


Regardless, he still seems shocked by her recklessness and genuinely suprised that the tactic worked... or at least seemed to. Does he really think her skills were that good or is he just happy it's over with no fuss?

Where might I find a text copy of the platinum scripts, btw? As I said at the beginning of this thread I don't have all the episodes in that version.

On a side note, I -almost- found evidence that would get me to drop this today: in the dub of 15 Asuka mentions casually to Misato that her date is with "some med student", and her guardian doesn't react at all to the idea. I was almost ready to toss in the towel right then, but it seems that the subs for that scene have her calling the guy a hunk... no indirect message that she's dating a significantly older guy anymore.

Oh well... at least in my skimming I was reminded that Asuka tried to get Kaji to return her calls by dishonestly pretending she was in some sort of danger. One more log on the fire.
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Postby Monk Ed » Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:53 am

NemZ wrote:
Rhyno wrote:So, everyone who acts professionally at his/her place of employment on a daily basis (this would be all the time... no?), they are actually lying? It isn't that they are being their professional selves? You do realize that people can have different personalities around different individuals... and it isn't considered lying. Say, you might act different around someone you have a crush on as opposed to your guardian. You call this lying?


That depends on if they are still being true to themselves or not. When you suppress doing or saying something you really want to because it doesn't fit in with the role you're playing you are lying, yes. The various rules of polite society may forgive and encourage this, but you are still being dishonest.

Even if you consider this lying, this is entirely different than making an intentionally deceitful and false statement about her achievements.


No argument. I never said it was, but rather that it was one of many factors that cause me to doubt Asuka.

She has the intelligence and ability to put together a viable plan under a stressful situation.


Yes, her plan is 'go get the guns we dropped', 'shoot it', and 'i'll cover you'; it's hardly rocket science. Actually, why did they need to throw the gun up to Shinji if it's a straight tunnel? Why not have two of them go down and double the firepower, especially considering that no other angel has ever been taken down by the pathetic pallet rifles before?

Oh, I forgot that they were packing plot ammo that day. my bad.

She then volunteers (actually, demands) for the most dangerous and very important 'position' protecting the offense and backup... probably because she views herself as the most capable pilot.


She flat-out said that she was doing it because she wanted to pay Shinji back for saving her in the volcano, but if you want to assert that she was lying about her motivations I won't stop you. :ting:

Monk Ed wrote:The thematic feel I got from Asuka in that episode -- and the previous ones -- is that yeah, she can be wrong and headstrong about a lot of things that wind up not mattering much, but when the chips are down she showcases startling competence and ability.


How so? In ep 8 she defaulted to expecting Shinji to fix things when the EVA wouldn't move, exactly as he warned her would happen. In 9 she was the one screwing up the training (error message first on her side) and the one who crashed into him on the landing (she's on top)... both of which she tries to blame him for, incidentally. In 10 Shinji is the one who comes up with the coolant plan. For the entire current episode up until her plan she has been actually hampering Rei from getting them where they need to be and otherwise occupying herself by straining her relationships with both her fellow pilots.

Ornette wrote:Or do you mean that she keeps repeating herself because it should only take 2 minutes to get to the Geofront?


Actually I was thinking about the "haven't I heard that 4 times already?" comment just after that.

He said: "Sheesh, don't order me around! You're the new one!"
to her response of attacking by herself first and telling Shinji to back her up. That doesn't sound like he was too impressed with her boldness.


That would be an example of Asuka being overbearing, not bold, and disregarding orders, to boot.

Oh, I see what you mean. That's in the English dub. She actually says something like "I can do it" (vs. "Charge" in the dub), and the literal translation of Shinji's line is "Good job!", the platinum subs have it as "Amazing!". Not sure how else that can be interpreted.


Regardless, he still seems shocked by her recklessness and genuinely suprised that the tactic worked... or at least seemed to. Does he really think her skills were that good or is he just happy it's over with no fuss?

Where might I find a text copy of the platinum scripts, btw? As I said at the beginning of this thread I don't have all the episodes in that version.

On a side note, I -almost- found evidence that would get me to drop this today: in the dub of 15 Asuka mentions casually to Misato that her date is with "some med student", and her guardian doesn't react at all to the idea. I was almost ready to toss in the towel right then, but it seems that the subs for that scene have her calling the guy a hunk... no indirect message that she's dating a significantly older guy anymore.

Oh well... at least in my skimming I was reminded that Asuka tried to get Kaji to return her calls by dishonestly pretending she was in some sort of danger. One more log on the fire.


To all of the above:

Duh, that's why she's interesting.

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Postby Ornette » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:30 am

NemZ wrote:
Ornette wrote:Or do you mean that she keeps repeating herself because it should only take 2 minutes to get to the Geofront?


Actually I was thinking about the "haven't I heard that 4 times already?" comment just after that.

Yes, that's the line I'm referring to, because he thought it would only take 2 minutes to get to the Geofront and Asuka kept repeating herself saying that the path leads to the Geofront, which by the way, was what Rei suggested and it had nothing to do with Asuka (Rei: "We can get below through Route 07 over here.")

He said: "Sheesh, don't order me around! You're the new one!"
to her response of attacking by herself first and telling Shinji to back her up. That doesn't sound like he was too impressed with her boldness.


That would be an example of Asuka being overbearing, not bold, and disregarding orders, to boot.

The order was:
Misato: "Units 01 and 02 will mount an attack in a series of waves. In other words, close in and take turns."

Asuka didn't disregard any given order, she just decided she was going first, and "ordered" Shinji to back her up.

Regardless, he still seems shocked by her recklessness and genuinely suprised that the tactic worked... or at least seemed to. Does he really think her skills were that good or is he just happy it's over with no fuss?

For me, it was never a question that it was the former.

but it seems that the subs for that scene have her calling the guy a hunk... no indirect message that she's dating a significantly older guy anymore.

FWIW, the literal translation of what Asuka says is "Yeah, with an MD student."

I'm not sure if there's any point in continuing. It's obvious we're both watching the same show but seeing 2 different things. Any further discussion would be splitting hairs and the topic is already verging away from "Asuka and college". It's not that I'm an Asuka fan, I really don't like any of the characters in the show, but she happens to seem the most realistic to me since there were many people I knew when I was 14 that's just like her.

I'm not sure where the platinum transcripts are online, you may want to contact Reichu about those.

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Postby Gamer_2k4 » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:55 am

Monk Ed wrote:To all of the above:

Duh, that's why she's interesting.

"Interesting" has no bearing on whether or not she's lying. Pathological liars can be interesting people. Incidentally, you could've said the same thing without the massive quote.

Anyway, I had forgotten about the call to Kaji. It proves that Asuka is willing to lie (blatantly, too; Kaji must have known it was a lie because he didn't follow up) to accomplish something. However, there's a pretty big difference between that and telling Shinji about college. In the former example, Asuka is lying solely to get attention. In the latter, she mentions that she went to college in passing, THEN tries to get Shinji's attention by doing something completely unrelated.

Did Asuka see that lying about college was a dead end, and immediately move on to impressing Shinji in some other way? It's possible, but if Asuka WAS lying to get attention, she sure didn't do it with the gusto of all of her other "look at me" attempts.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:12 pm

She flat-out said that she was doing it because she wanted to pay Shinji back for saving her in the volcano, but if you want to assert that she was lying about her motivations I won't stop you. :grin:


How the hell is it lying even if there was another motivation behind what she said??

While there could have been another motivation such as wanting show off being the best Pilot (which, really, is just Asuka's personality so that's nothing new), the main intent of Asuka doing what she did (as both the episode script and the Renewal/Platinum booklets state anyway) is this:

Episode 11 wrote: Asuka: I have a plan. The one who stays here will be defense.
Their job is to neutralize the AT Field, and to protect the offensive player from the liquid solvent. The backup player will go down, pick up the rifles,
and hand them to the offense. The offense will then fire a volley to destroy the target. Does that sound good?

Rei: Fine. I will take the defense.

Asuka: Sorry, but it's not you. I'll do it.

Shinji: No way! It's dangerous!

Asuka: That's why. I don't want to stay indebted to you from last time. Shinji's on offense. Miss Perfect is the backup. Got it?

Rei: Understood.

Asuka: Okay, here we go! Gehen!

Shinji: Ayanami! Asuka, get out of the way!

Asuka: Now we're even.


Ornette wrote:I'm not sure where the platinum transcripts are online, you may want to contact Reichu about those.


They're right on the front page of http://www.evacommentary.org/ for download; the second to last update has v3 of them up for download.
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Postby NemZ » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:04 pm

Ornette wrote:FWIW, the literal translation of what Asuka says is "Yeah, with an MD student."


If that is what the line was originally intended to convey then I'm willing to concede the argument. Misato would definately know the truth of the matter and her not commenting at all on such a declaration is a pretty good indicator that she has indeed been to college, or at least this isn't the first time she's been hanging around with college-aged guys.

I would continue to argue with most of what has been added to this thread since my last post, but there isn't much point in dragging this even further from the topic. Well, unless you guys want to keep arguing, of course!

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Postby Monk Ed » Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:56 pm

Gamer_2k4 wrote:"Interesting" has no bearing on whether or not she's lying. Pathological liars can be interesting people. Incidentally, you could've said the same thing without the massive quote.

I know, but I wanted to be funny. I only want to be loved. :shinji_boohoo:

Yeah, my bad on that knee-jerk reaction. I've been defending Asuka for so long on other fora I assumed you were attacking her character, rather than just her credibility.

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Postby NemZ » Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:08 pm

Monk Ed wrote:Yeah, my bad on that knee-jerk reaction. I've been defending Asuka for so long on other fora I assumed you were attacking her character, rather than just her credibility.


Both, actually.... Just not on this particular issue anymore. :thumbsup:

I've never really liked Asuka, though I do feel pity for her. She is a walking amalgamation and amplification of just about everything I find generally wrong with the average teenage girl.
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Postby zarwin » Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:59 am

I think that's how you're supposed to view her.
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Postby Chuckman » Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:17 pm

[Merged from "EVA 00's Soul". - Monk]

The thing is she doesn't come across as hyperintelligent. She's sharper than Shinji, but that's not saying much. It would isolate her from her peer group, though.

I think it's telling we never hear what the subject matter of her supposed degree is. I would think allowing Asuka to develop a passion outside of Eva would be detrimental to the plan, so she was given a pat on the head to build up her ego and make her even more fragile.

Come to think of it, Asuka's whole life has a kind of Corn King ring to it. I must meditate on this.
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