The Great Episode 24' Plot Hole / Fanwank Thread

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Postby Monk Ed » Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:43 pm

Reichu wrote:With regard to the "sample" bit, I think people are just getting caught up in semantics. The show seems to make it pretty clear that the embryo IS, in effect, Adam, or at least her body, although it's just a small remnant of what it once was. "Sample" is a bit of a strange word to use, but...

In that case, there is a way that closes those plotholes and allows Gendo's Adam to be the one and only.

Perhaps:

Adam is simply dead, destroyed by its own premature Impactulation, never to perform another. This embryo, Adam's dead form, is all that remains and cannot be used by the Angels at all. But neither can the humans resurrect it directly; that is why instead they clone it to make Eva, the "Adam Revival Project."

Knowing the Angels can't win (cause their own Impact) helps explain SEELE's confidence, or rather, makes them overconfident because they forget they can still eradicate us the old-fashioned way if the Evas are defeated, which is why Gendo and Fuyutsuki take things more seriously. (Of course this explanation is unnecessary because their faith in the SDSS plays the same role.)

By 2015 SEELE extracted everything they need of the embryo, so they put it in storage or schedule its termination. Enter Kaji, who instead "diverts" it into Gendo's hands. They don't notice it's gone/not destroyed for a long time, or don't throw a fit if they do, because it's not very important: they're done using it and the Angels can't use it anyway.

In this scenario, Lilith serves as a decoy to draw the Angels out of hiding so that they can be killed (as opposed to distracting them from Adam). As an extra measure they spread the lie to the humans that Lilith is Adam, in case an Angel with human intelligence comes along.

And one does. (Or rather, they made one.) Except this man-made Angel doesn't seem to be very motivated to go return to "Adam" like he's supposed to. So they call him out to that lake and remind him of his purpose, throwing in that Gendo is a fusion of Lilim and Adam like him, so he needs to hurry up.

(A side-effect of this lie is that Kaji thinks the embryo is but a sample of an original Adam locked in TD-- but also, per the plan, so does Kaworu.)

There are lots of variations on this theme, but the central tenets are:

--the Angels can't make an Impact with the embryo itself, so it's not kept good track of.

--at least Kaworu thinks that starting an Impact requires an Adamite to return to Adam.

--Kaworu doesn't think of the embryo in Gendo's hand as "the" Adam he must return to.

As for the CI, I'm wary of taking its explanations at face-value, including the idea that Lilith was the original target. Because then why would the lie that it's Adam get started?

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:04 am

Reichu wrote:You're assigning the value "meaningless" and deciding what is required to render the embryo "meaningful".
Embryo denotes the beginning stages of a living organism that will grow and eventually shed the embryonic state. So what would make the Adam "sample" embryonic if it had no soul and no S2? There wouldn't be anything living about it - just a chunk of PWM. Which Seele and co. had plenty of with the Evas and Lilith.

Reichu wrote:Being the product of Adam's reduction obviously made it special.
But what's Adam-y about it if, again, it's nothing but a chunk of PWM?

Reichu wrote:Keep in mind that Nerv was apparently relying on dead Angels to get S2 samples.
They seemed to be after the entire core as well as a (perfectly) intact S2. Probably to better understand the whole process so they could duplicate it. 2I was hardly an ideal sample by which to understand and replicate an Adam-derived being (hence the S2less Evas).

Monk Ed wrote:It would appear Lilith either already had her own S2, or didn't need one because Gendo perhaps intended to use the S2 in Eva-01.
As Reichu said, Lilith having her own S2 would complicate matters much further.

Monk Ed wrote:the embryo's role seems to have something to do with the line, "The forbidden joining of Adam and Lilith". Both attempts at 3I -- Gendo's and SEELE's -- involve some combination of Lilith and Adam (original or derived).
From all of the discussions around here it seems the "combination of Lilith and Adam" has to do with:

1. The S2 from ADOs needed to trigger 3I by using a huge Anti AT Field to tang the planet.
2. Lilith or her substitute Sho to usher in all of the newly freed souls into the Black Moon.

So both parts are needed - but if Lilith already had an S2 there's no reason for the delay of 3I.

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:You need an explaination as to why all of the Angels, including the lingerers, came to the Black Moon. Lilith fails epicly at this.
I don't think that it does. My theory doesn't use "The Angels intend to start 3I" as its cornerstone. The entire series revolves around returning to the origin of life, and that's where the Angels are heading instinctively. And until you can explain to me why they wouldn't be heading towards Lilith, I'd say the theory is quite solid.

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:They wouldn't even know what a SOL is. They got their souls minutes before Adam exploded.
They don't have to know consciously to sense instinctively. I also like how you theorize they wouldn't know what a SOL is yet they should be able to distinguish between Adam and Lilith. Lolcontradiction?

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:It also doesn't explain Areal, Armi, Leliel, etc.
"Not all the Angels are the same" is explanation enough for the moment.

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:It's got nothing to do with an instinctual need Lilith is the same species as us and that is something they should pick up on very easily.
I've yet to hear you put forth an argument for this reasoning you seem so adamant about.

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:Yet they tend to flat out ignore us until we do something that actually hurts them.
"I want my mommy! I want my mommy! Ouch! That hurts! KILL YOU! I want my mommy!"

Works fine for me.

Oh, and please get off this "OMG it's just bad writing!" kick because consistently being vague, mysterious, and unexplanatory isn't "bad writing", it's called a stylistic choice. Bad writing would be using pages and pages of dialogue to explain all of the lingering mysteries and wrap them up with a bow on top. Most don't seem to realize that it's the mystery that lingers long after the solution, and if NGE was as heavy on stupidly satisfying exposition like so much bad anime was then we all probably wouldn't still be here. These plotholes, unexplainables, vagueries, etc. is what allows for this kind of fan participation.


Monk Ed wrote:In that case, there is a way that closes those plotholes and allows Gendo's Adam to be the one and only.
Another good post Monk Ed! I'd say keep everything except the "Angel can't cause 3I by reaching Lilith", because I believe one could. We can also still surmise that the embryo contains an S2 which is laid dormant by the lack of a soul, and therefor Gendo needs it to fuse with Lilith and utilize his own version of 3I. I also like the part about Seele urging Kaworu to attempt to stop Gendo by saying he has Adam's body. One mystery of the episode is why Seele sent Kaworu there, and I always thought that it being their attempt to destroy Gendo made sense that they had turned against them by then. This would then perhaps fall in with the "Kaworu betrayed Seele" by instead leaving Gendo be and heading down to TD where he thought he sensed the rest of Adam was.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:28 pm

Eva Yojimbo wrote:I don't think that it does.

It does, get over it.

My theory doesn't use "The Angels intend to start 3I" as its cornerstone. The entire series revolves around returning to the origin of life, and that's where the Angels are heading instinctively.

Not all of them were after that, that's why it fails. BTW, where do you get your perfect insight into the Angels motives?

And until you can explain to me why they wouldn't be heading towards Lilith, I'd say the theory is quite solid.

Lolwut. They could just be sensing realatives you know... Wow that took 2 seconds to come up with. Would like me to put some actual effort into that?

They don't have to know consciously to sense instinctively. I also like how you theorize they wouldn't know what a SOL is yet they should be able to distinguish between Adam and Lilith. Lolcontradiction?

So you think they wouldn't notice the similarites between Lilith and the billions of other beings that inhabit the planet yet they'd sense the similarites to Adam?

"Not all the Angels are the same" is explanation enough for the moment.

Not the same doesn't work at all. The point you fail to understand is they all have different motives. Armi just wanted to know what she was feeling and how to deal with it. That's got nothing to do with 3I or returing to the begining of life.

I've yet to hear you put forth an argument for this reasoning you seem so adamant about.

I have, twice. You just seem to be missing it. They have billions of other lifeforms that should seem similar enough to Lilith to make them realize ZOMG that isn't Adam. That's why Kaworu thinking Lilith was Adam is stupid and 99% of the fandom sees it.

Oh, and please get off this "OMG it's just bad writing!" kick because consistently being vague, mysterious, and unexplanatory isn't "bad writing", it's called a stylistic choice.

It is bad writing because it has yet to make sense no matter what has been tried to fix it. Each answer raises 5 new problems. That's not vague it's just stupid.
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Postby NemZ » Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:03 am

Is it problematic if my first reading of the title was that it was discussing a 24 FOOT plot hole? :D

Okay, my way of seeing things:

Scene at the lake was two scenes at once... though whether both are occuring at real time or one is a flashback is debatable. I'm suprised nobody has mentioned (or I've just missed) Kaworu's knowing about Misato's observation as evidence of his long-distance telepathic potential.

Seele sent Kaworu to kill Gendo, with motivation being to get his true body back. Their (false) motivation was explained as being that they wanted to stop him from becoming a god himself, and were willing to work with an angel to prevent that since it's in both of their interests. They knew he'd betrayed their purpose because they still have spies within NERV.

Kaworu betrayed them because he didn't know why they would want him to start 3I, and thus suspected they were up to something. He knew about Gendo but was not concerned because he couldn't fuse with the embryo anyway, on account of it, now having a soul do to it's fusion with Gendo's flesh. He couldn't fuse with 02 for the same reason... but there was a mysterious pile of soulless PWM flesh down in the basement that would fill his needs.

The 'forcing our hand' Gendo is concerned with might be the self-destruct feature that Misato and Hyuga are ready to use. Presumably the AT fields would protect both unit 01 and Kaworu from the explosion though it would kill the rest of them and make instrumentality much easier. Seele didn't want to risk this, and thus hoped that unit 01 would destroy the angel before such a rash action became necessary.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:15 am

NemZ wrote:He knew about Gendo but was not concerned because he couldn't fuse with the embryo anyway, on account of it, now having a soul do to it's fusion with Gendo's flesh.

Gendo stuck the soul back in the embryo after Kaworu went squish.

but there was a mysterious pile of soulless PWM flesh down in the basement that would fill his needs.

Why did he think that pile of flesh was his original body? That is the crux of the plothole.
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Postby NemZ » Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:55 am

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:Gendo stuck the soul back in the embryo after Kaworu went squish.


I assume that as well, but he certainly didn't take over Gendo when that happened. Had he fused with the embryo he may have just ended up trapped or in some combined adam/gendo hybrid form... teh uberpimp?!

Why did he think that pile of flesh was his original body? That is the crux of the plothole.


I never said he thought it was. He just thought it was a pile of useful materials, and the only such stockpile in the area that he's sure is currently vacant.

Look at it this way; if PWM is to angels as LCL is to humans, does it really even matter where the source material comes from if the soul that occupies and shapes it is the same? Shinji didn't reform in ep20 from the same LCL that he originally dissolved into, did he? Is Rei still Rei if she's in a new body (soul splitting/refusing scenarios aside), or is she a new person altogether each time?
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:24 am

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:It does, get over it.
It doesn't, get over it. Until you can provide a reasonable counter-argument, then we're just treading water here.

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:Not all of them were after that, that's why it fails.
Not all of them have to be after that. They're still showing up at the same place, which is evidence enough.

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:BTW, where do you get your perfect insight into the Angels motives?
The same place you get yours from.

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:They could just be sensing realatives you know...
Which relatives are you referring to? Other Angels? Because one is dead before the next one shows up.

Anonymous_Evafan wrote: So you think they wouldn't notice the similarites between Lilith and the billions of other beings that inhabit the planet yet they'd sense the similarites to Adam?
Yes, because Lilith and Adam are the only two SOL on the planet. We're just annoying offspring and irrelevant to them.

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:Not the same doesn't work at all. The point you fail to understand is they all have different motives. Armi just wanted to know what she was feeling and how to deal with it. That's got nothing to do with 3I or returing to the begining of life.
Yet they're all still showing up in the same place - that's the crux of my argument that they're all showing up near Lilith. What they do when they get there is a different matter entirely.

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:They have billions of other lifeforms that should seem similar enough to Lilith to make them realize ZOMG that isn't Adam.
We're not SOL. Adam and Lilith are. Your proposition that they should be able to tell we're the same as Lilith is just as unfounded as you claim my proposition is about them sensing a SOL and not being able to differentiate them.

I mean, Adam and Lilith do have similarities that are not inherent in their offspring. Like they're ability to spawn such lifeforms on an entire planet, and them being huge masses of PWM (which the Angels are too, but not us).

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:It is bad writing because it has yet to make sense no matter what has been tried to fix it.
No, it doesn't have to make sense. That's the beauty of science fiction and fiction on a whole. I think there are certain things that has to make sense within a sci-fi premise - like character actions, for instance. What has to make sense is whatever the artist is trying to get across. Everything Anno placed importance on comes across and makes sense within that context. That import doesn't extend to narrative specifics.

So you can keep thinking it's bad writing and "just stupid", and you can keep be wrong too. ;)

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:Why did he think that pile of flesh was his original body?
1. He didn't think it was his original body. He just sensed that it was a huge mass of PWM, and was surprised to find Lilith there.
2. He sensed a huge mass of PWM and thought it was his body, and is shocked to find otherwise.

Either works for me. I know they don't to you, but all the evidence supports my theory that:

1. The Angels/Kaworu can sense a SOL in TD.
2. They're instinctively going towards it (perhaps not right to it, but in that direction).
3. They can't distinguish between Adam and Lilith.

This fits every Angel appearance as well as Kaworu. Even Arael aims its attack right at Tokyo-3.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:00 pm

Eva Yojimbo wrote:Not all of them have to be after that. They're still showing up at the same place, which is evidence enough.

Evidence enough for what? Clearly not all of them were trying to get to Lilith so she fails as a reason for them to be there. Try again.

The same place you get yours from.

Oh so obvious differences in behavior patterns means they're all trying to do the same thing?

Which relatives are you referring to? Other Angels? Because one is dead before the next one shows up.

WTF dude, the Evas are clones of Adam. They have several fully mature members of their species sitting in the same spot. I think you'd be just a bit currious to until someone dies going there.

Yes, because Lilith and Adam are the only two SOL on the planet. We're just annoying offspring and irrelevant to them.

Whatever. Our existance is the very point to their existance.

Yet they're all still showing up in the same place - that's the crux of my argument that they're all showing up near Lilith. What they do when they get there is a different matter entirely.

None of that means they are after Lilith at all which you've passed off as fact more than once.

We're not SOL. Adam and Lilith are. Your proposition that they should be able to tell we're the same as Lilith is just as unfounded as you claim my proposition is about them sensing a SOL and not being able to differentiate them.

No it isn't. They have several billion points of compairison to notice that fact while that have no reason to think Lilith was someone they didn't even know.

I mean, Adam and Lilith do have similarities that are not inherent in their offspring. Like they're ability to spawn such lifeforms on an entire planet, and them being huge masses of PWM (which the Angels are too, but not us).

My point is if their senses are good enough to notice all that crap then they should notice Lilith is our SOL due to our similarites with her. Are you really having that much trouble following this?

No, it doesn't have to make sense. That's the beauty of science fiction and fiction on a whole. I think there are certain things that has to make sense within a sci-fi premise - like character actions, for instance.

Lol contridiction.

So you can keep thinking it's bad writing and "just stupid", and you can keep be wrong too. ;)

Lol whatever. You're the one who is wrong. Kaworu's bahavior makes no sense. SEELE told him exactly where Adam was. He went to Lilith via a massive plot contrivance to set Shinji up for EoE. That is the worst writing imaginable.

Either works for me. I know they don't to you, but all the evidence supports my theory that:

Sure it does.

I think I'm done with this debate. You seem so caught up in the greatness of your theory that you ignore it's flaws going as far as saying "it doesn't need to make sense" to justify it. If you really want to keep clinging to it be my guest but don't expect it to satisfy anyone else like most fanwanks try to do.
Last edited by Anonymous_Evafan on Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Eva Monkey » Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:19 pm

Pie is fucking delicious.
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Postby Monk Ed » Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:20 pm

Hm. Adam's role... There is something else that makes Adam special besides an S2.

Kaworu (Adam) was able to control Adam-based Evas. He implied it's because he and they came from the same body/"karada". Only his soul is that of Adam, implying he thinks the soul is part of one's "karada". Well, one's "nikutai" such as what's in Gendo's hand is also part of one's "karada". In the lake scene as well, Kaworu and SEELE both treated having either nikutai or soul as much the same.

So perhaps Rei's ability to take over the Harpies comes from the Adam embryo she fused with (I doubt the soul was necessary for this otherwise SEELE wouldn't have sent its vessel right to Gendo). Such an ability also fits with Gendo's lines such as when he boasts of having "all the trump cards" -- being able to hijack the enemy's 3I is quite a trump card. It also explains how Adam would be useful and cause SEELE fear but not be itself absolutely necessary.

It also works symbolically, as control: Adam is located in the hand; Gendo gropes Rei with it like he owns her; Rei takes Adam/control from him as she declares her independence; the power of the individual (Gendo-Adam) rebelling against a collective (SEELE, who probably don't trust each other enough to have one among their number implant it even if they knew it could be).

By the way, on the Evapedia page I see a lot of analysis of SEELE's lines in ep24'. Some of it puts forth the really weird suggestion that Kaworu betrayed SEELE. That doesn't make any sense unless their lines in ep24 regular are to be completely disregarded/retconned out of existence.

For reference,

ep24':

Gendo: "The old men are trying to advance the schedule, by forcing our hand."
(cut to SEELE)
"Humans forget their foolishness and repeat their mistakes."
"If humans do not redeem themselves willingly, they will not change."
"We will not rely on the powers of Adam or the Angels."
"Our only choice is to make changes with our own hands for the future. I will be praying that Unit 01 will accomplish its task."

In the original cut, this conversation is completely different (I notice there's no note of this difference in Evapedia).

ep24:

Gendo: "The old men are trying to advance the schedule, by forcing our hand."
(cut to SEELE)
"The final Angel has entered Central Dogma and is currently descending. It's all going according to plan."
"Ikari, you were a good friend, a comrade who shared our aspirations, and a collaborator who understood. This is your final task. I will be praying that it will be accomplished by Unit 01."

Seems pretty dang straightforward. Almost painfully so: they planned the whole time for Kaworu to be killed. 'All is going according to plan.' They're simply rushing the death of the last Angel because it's a requirement before 3I can begin. (In ep24' Gendo implies in his monologue to Yui-sama that the final Angel must die before their "wish can come true".)

The replacement scene does not contradict the replaced scene in any obvious way. (I think? They seem to have lost all ability to speak in sense.) So then why are people coming up with this idea that Kaworu is the one who betrayed SEELE? It's not only overly convoluted, but to go that angle, to entirely disregard that scene lest Kaworu's intentions disprove one's theory of the role of Adam or Lilith or whatever, is to propose a theory that itself proposes and relies on a retcon of epic proportions.

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Postby BobBQ » Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:20 pm

The Eva Monkey wrote:Pie is fucking delicious.

The cake is a lie, and so is your pie.

Also, absurdities.

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Postby Monk Ed » Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:28 pm

So taking into account my last post, the lake scene plothole can be resolved by a combination of these:

1) The aforementioned Adam-as-controller theory.

2) Only a giant Adam is an Impact-trigger. Nothing implies an Angel can just trip over the embryo one day and BOOM; both Impacts we see look like more involved processes featuring a very, very big SOL or surrogate. And if Lilith has to advance to a certain stage to be usable for 3I, why not Adam? The embryo was "restoring" itself (Kaji, ep8), so it would've grown into something were it not implanted/destroyed/frozen. That something is probably the giant Impact trigger we're initially led to believe it became.

And because of that potential, SEELE probably planned to destroy it or store it forever. But instead Gendo implants it in himself so it grows into him and gives him the aforementioned power. (Also thwarting the Angels, but so would storing/destroying it.)

If we take a little leap and presume that maybe his trick would've also worked with a piece of Adam, then perhaps that's what SEELE implies to Kaworu that he's done by saying the "resurrected flesh of Adam" is already in him. From there, perhaps they imply that Gendo plans to possess Adam (open the box) and then "waste" Adam (close the box early) to prevent SEELE's hope (annihilation of mankind) from being realized.

The beauty that angle is that all their metaphors and double-talk would not be lying with a single word: Gendo does have Adam's flesh (but they don't mention it's the only original flesh left), and he is planning to open Pandora's box (start 3I) then close it early (stop before everyone is permanently fused). And interestingly, in both cases SEELE's "hope" refers to different expressions of much the same thing: the annihilation of mankind, one through simple destruction, one through destruction plus unification of souls.

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:19 pm

Monk Ed wrote:The embryo was "restoring" itself (Kaji, ep8), so it would've grown into something

As I recall Reichu saying that is a mistranslation and it is actually "restored" passive.
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Postby Monk Ed » Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:32 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:
Monk Ed wrote:The embryo was "restoring" itself (Kaji, ep8), so it would've grown into something

As I recall Reichu saying that is a mistranslation and it is actually "restored" passive.

It has been restored? As in someone was restoring it by the time Kaji nabbed it? The platinum line is, "It's already restored itself this far." I'll have to give it a listen myself now.

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Postby Reichu » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:47 pm

I actually asked around a while back, and I didn't get a clear answer regarding the passive/active thing. For the meantime, my official word is that I am NOT, in fact, really sure what's going on there, and you should ask someone more knowledgeable...

Monk Ed wrote:By the way, on the Evapedia page I see a lot of analysis of SEELE's lines in ep24'. Some of it puts forth the really weird suggestion that Kaworu betrayed SEELE. That doesn't make any sense unless their lines in ep24 regular are to be completely disregarded/retconned out of existence.

That page needs some help... I should probably flag it or something.
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:49 am

Lolimback

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:Evidence enough for what? Clearly not all of them were trying to get to Lilith so she fails as a reason for them to be there. Try again.
It doesn't matter that they weren't trying to "get to Lilith". Something was pulling them to that location even if they weren't all trying to "actively" get to Lilith. Some might not even have had a way and instead went for the next best thing (the Evas).

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:Oh so obvious differences in behavior patterns means they're all trying to do the same thing?
I never said that. We can chalk the similarities and differences up to the constant contrasting of unconscious desires, wants, needs, instincts and individual choice. The Angels are being drawn instinctively to the same place, yet they're individually doing different things when they get there. That works fine for me.

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:WTF dude, the Evas are clones of Adam. They have several fully mature members of their species sitting in the same spot.
You mean besides the fact that their souls are of the Lilim variety? Evas are not Angels even if they are copied from the same bio-mass (and let's not forget the hybrid-01 thing).

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:None of that means they are after Lilith at all which you've passed off as fact more than once.
Aha, I see the confusion. I will restate: "Heading towards the general direction of Lilith and not actively trying to get to Lilith (even though some are)."

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:They have several billion points of compairison to notice that fact while that have no reason to think Lilith was someone they didn't even know.
Please restate coherently. plzkthx.

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:My point is if their senses are good enough to notice all that crap then they should notice Lilith is our SOL due to our similarites with her. Are you really having that much trouble following this?
No trouble following it, I just don't agree. I think it's relatively simple for them to be able to sense a SOL and then to distinguish everything else as a separate entity. Especially when, ya know, we start attacking them.

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:You're the one who is wrong.
I know you are but what am I?

Anonymous_Evafan wrote: Kaworu's bahavior makes no sense.
How do we know it doesn't make sense when don't really even know his goal? He doesn't even seem to know what he wants to do throughout the ep.

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:SEELE told him exactly where Adam was.
It seems to me everything they tell him is directed at pointing their wrath towards Gendo, not necessarily to helping Kaworu. And if we make the simple assumption that Kaworu had his own plans in mind (being the Angel of Free Will and all) then his not going after Gendo seems to fit in with many of the Angels' goal of getting to that giant hunk of a SOL in TD.

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:He went to Lilith via a massive plot contrivance to set Shinji up for EoE. That is the worst writing imaginable.
M. Night Shamalamadingdong's films are the worst writing imaginable even though they make complete (sci-fi) sense.

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:You seem so caught up in the greatness of your theory that you ignore it's flaws going as far as saying "it doesn't need to make sense" to justify it.
Most of your contradictions don't seem based in many more sense than I do. Where is the evidence that the Angels can or cannot distinguish between Evas, Adam, and Lilith? Since we have no way of knowing it's relatively easy to fanwank a workable solution.

Evidence 1: They all show up in Tokyo-3.
Evidence 2: Many attempt to get to Lilith.
Evidence 3: One attempts to get to Adam Embryo.
Evidence 4: Kaworu doesn't know it's Lilith in TD.
Evidence 5. Kaworu heads there anyway.
Evidence 6: All of the Angels attack (and I use that term loosely) the Evas.

All of this supports this theory: The Angels can sense a SOL, they are showing up near where one is at, if not outright trying to get to one. However, they cannot distinguish Adam from Lilith, and perhaps have no real need to.

This helps fix up both the "Why do the Angels all show up at the same place?" 'plothole' and the "Why does Kaworu head down to TD?" 'plothole'. Your contradictions seem, to me, not to really contradict this and can be worked to fit a separate theory, eg, "The Angels do not all try to get to Lilith" - answer; this accounts for their individuality, but the fact that they all show up near the same place accounts for their instinctual behavior.
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:06 am

Monk Ed wrote:Hm. Adam's role... There is something else that makes Adam special besides an S2.
This whole post confuses me. Eva meta-science seems to suggest the body/vessel and soul are two completely different things, and that the soul can "shape" the vessel (see Rei returning to Lilith in EoE). Further, Adam's soul in Kaworu is equally separated from his embryonic body. I think perhaps we could attribute the specialness of the Adam embryo to being the fact that there's something special about the bodies of the SOL - perhaps having to do with the ability to trigger and withstand (at least, long enough) an Impact.

Monk Ed wrote:So perhaps Rei's ability to take over the Harpies comes from the Adam embryo she fused with
I always attributed this to Lilith's OMGHUEGANDPOWAFUL! AT Field which she seems to force against those of the MPE's and overtake them (this also explains the "Rei" heads popping up everywhere).

Monk Ed wrote:(I doubt the soul was necessary for this otherwise SEELE wouldn't have sent its vessel right to Gendo).
Wait... what?

Monk Ed wrote:By the way, on the Evapedia page I see a lot of analysis of SEELE's lines in ep24'. Some of it puts forth the really weird suggestion that Kaworu betrayed SEELE.
That T&A page was assembled my me based on the wealth of theories that were presented in this thread. It might, perhaps, need to be modified to reflect current views (whatever they may be, there's still no solidity to all of this).

Monk Ed wrote:Gendo: "The old men are trying to advance the schedule, by forcing our hand."
(cut to SEELE)
"Humans forget their foolishness and repeat their mistakes."
"If humans do not redeem themselves willingly, they will not change."
"We will not rely on the powers of Adam or the Angels."
"Our only choice is to make changes with our own hands for the future. I will be praying that Unit 01 will accomplish its task."

In the original cut, this conversation is completely different (I notice there's no note of this difference in Evapedia).

ep24:

Gendo: "The old men are trying to advance the schedule, by forcing our hand."
(cut to SEELE)
"The final Angel has entered Central Dogma and is currently descending. It's all going according to plan."
"Ikari, you were a good friend, a comrade who shared our aspirations, and a collaborator who understood. This is your final task. I will be praying that it will be accomplished by Unit 01."
This is actually a major topic I raised MUCH earlier in this thread. The general consensus is that the Platinum subs are much more accurate than the original. In the original though, Seele's line is completely and utterly different and actually makes much more sense than what it was changed to. If Seele sent Kaworu for Gendo to destroy then that clears up one major question of why Seele sent Kaworu to Nerv (though still not the "why he went" part).

The "Kaworu betrays Seele" argument, I think, is spelled out pretty explicitly in that article. In particular what Seele told Kaworu, and why he would even remotely be communicating/in league with them. The Platinum dialogue seems to suggest that Seele was relying on Kaworu for something: "Humans forget their foolishness and repeat their mistakes. We will not rely on Adam and the Angels."

Monk Ed wrote:Almost painfully so: they planned the whole time for Kaworu to be killed. 'All is going according to plan.' They're simply rushing the death of the last Angel because it's a requirement before 3I can begin.
It still doesn't explain why Kaworu would go along with them. Because what they told him and what they really wanted is probably quite different. Conversely, What he was intended by Seele to do and what he actually did is likely quite different.

Monk Ed wrote:The replacement scene does not contradict the replaced scene in any obvious way. (I think? They seem to have lost all ability to speak in sense.) So then why are people coming up with this idea that Kaworu is the one who betrayed SEELE?
1. Seele seems to be directing Kaworu towards Gendo and/or the Adam embryo inside Gendo.
2. Kaworu disregards this and goes straight to TD where Lilith is.
3. The Platinum edition has the Seele line (directly after Kaworu hi-jacks Ni) implying that they have repeated their mistake in relying on Adam (Kaworu) to achieve their goal.
4. Going back a bit, the Kaworu/Seele relationship only works logically if Seele is manipulating Kaworu into allowing them to achieve what they want. But what they want is him and Gendo dead and everyone out of the way so they can set up 3I. They can't tell Kaworu this because his plans would (conceivably) be quite different. So their talk at the lake seems to be implying that they're telling him "No, no, go on. You and the Angels were the true successors from the White Moon and deserve to be here. Go get your body back and destroy us all". Further, Kaworu's wanderings during that episode (especially the descent towards TD) seems to strongly imply that whatever Seele told him had to do with destroying their own kind and allowing Adam and the Angels to exist.

Does that cover it?




Reichu wrote:That page needs some help... I should probably flag it or something.
That page is intended to be a coherent collection of all the theories discussed here. And I dare anyone else to sort through this monster and come up with something better (though again, keep in mind this was done way back after the first 15 or so pages).
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Postby simon » Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:26 am

Could someone please restate the problem in this thread, because I read and I can't get the main subject here. I see lots of different topics and I lost the track.

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:54 am

Seele tells Kaworu that Adam's body is within Gendo. Kaworu goes to Nerv, and goes down to Terminal Dogma, sees Lilith and seems shocked to find her there. Now, since he knew where his body was, why was he shocked to find Lilith in TD? Why did he go down there anyway? What did Seele want him to do? etc. etc. etc.
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We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby The Eva Monkey » Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:20 am

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