A.T. Field Technicalities

For serious and at times in-depth discussions only, covering the original TV series, the movies End of Evangelion and Death & Rebirth.

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Postby NemZ » Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:23 pm

...or maybe for LCL-based life it's more like a collection of smaller individual fields around each cell that work in conjuction to maintain cohesion and general phsyical organization of parts based upon ego projection of the self-image. Perhaps 'more' field altogether, but each individual expression of the field is no stronger than that used by, say, a paramecium.

By your theory all the pilots should be encouraged to become as fat as possible rather than the little waifs they are because extra mass = stronger AT fields. That goes double for the obviously anorexic evas.
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Postby Defectron » Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:28 pm

For example, I would say that birds who attack their reflections aren't very self-aware.


That doesn't mean a thing, all it means is that they don't understand the concept of what a mirror is. As you said before self awareness and intelligence are two different things.

It might sound annoyingly dismissive, but my point is that until humanity does come into contact with a species that we can perceive to be conscious we will never have any basis for understanding the term outside our own limited experience.


We already have, as I said before its been proven that by the definition AuraTwilight gave, chimpanzees and some other primates are in fact self aware which we know because weve been able to communicate with them.
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Postby Enki v.2 » Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:40 pm

I dunno if this has been said (and someone might well have, seeing as how in a more oblique way it's a running theme in Eva, GL, and in variants of traditional occult stuff) but (and this may sound silly, but I'm being totally serious here, because I think this is the best-fit solution) what if AT field potency is related to self-esteem or determination?

The AT field is born of the libido -- the will to live. It's also the mechanism of physical individuation (as Kaworu stated clearly, and EoE implies strongly that individuation in turn strengthens the AT field). Kaworu is certainly both incredibly confident and very much self-aware. Angel #5 is both extremely powerful and has an absurdly good AT field. Generally, the weakness of an angel in offense is more or less proportional to its weakness in defense (they are of course related -- without the defenses, the angel in Lilliputan Hitcher would not be able to do much offense).

Call me a fanwank artist or whatever, but I think it's quite possible that the AT field is a manefest of the will to live and the sense of individuality.

(On a side note, maybe this could be a wierd twist on the shinji-gets-a-backbone fanfic cliche... Shinji becomes super confident for some reason, and then suddenly is entirely bulletproof and can shoot laser beams out of his hands. Maybe. As a parody.)

Does anyone think this is a half-decent idea? (And if my facts are wrong here, correct me.)

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Postby Gamer_2k4 » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:01 pm

Enki v.2 wrote:Call me a fanwank artist or whatever, but I think it's quite possible that the AT field is a manefest of the will to live and the sense of individuality.


Yes to the second, no to the first. The individuality part I can definitely see, since the most unique beings (angels and evas) have the strongest AT fields, and after all, an AT field is what maintains personal individuality.

However, I don't think that either angels or evas have a desire to live, or any desires, for that matter. Angels just seem to carry out their tasks, and any self defense is just a way of ensuring that the task is completed. Evas, on the other hand, are clearly protective, and if the pilot is in danger, they'll do their thing and generate an AT field. But I don't think the pilot contributes to the AT field at all.
Last edited by Gamer_2k4 on Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Enki v.2 » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:05 pm

Well, the libido is defined in humans as the will to live, but more generally a creative, positive force. But it's so ambiguous that who knows what it really refers to.

That being said, I guess you could extend the will to live to the will for survival of the species, or the will for survival of the family, or the will to exterminate "negative" forces opposing you. And you cannot doubt that the angels are incredibly determined.

Plus, the only angels that actually communicated were Kaworu, the double helix one, and the one who mindraped Asuka.

(I just realized -- all the pilots communicated with at least one angel outside of their eva itself.)

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:19 pm

NemZ wrote:...or maybe for LCL-based life it's more like a collection of smaller individual fields around each cell that work in conjuction to maintain cohesion and general phsyical organization of parts based upon ego projection of the self-image. Perhaps 'more' field altogether, but each individual expression of the field is no stronger than that used by, say, a paramecium.

And it's connected to ATF collapse why?

By your theory all the pilots should be encouraged to become as fat as possible rather than the little waifs they are because extra mass = stronger AT fields. That goes double for the obviously anorexic evas.

I've already said this, I am not talking about mass just size. This is the model Anno used for the Evas matching the Angels I'm just trying to get people to see it's not as absurd as Reichu would like to make it out to be. Clearly Anno didn't work out all the fine details in this but you know what? It's backgroud crap that didn't really concern him so deal with it.

Gamer_2k4 wrote:However, I don't think that either angels or evas have a desire to live, or any desires, for that matter. Angels just seem to carry out their tasks, and any self defense is just a way of ensuring that the task is completed. Evas, on the other hand, are clearly protective, and if the pilot is in danger, they'll do their thing and generate an AT field. But I don't think the pilot contributes to the AT field at all.

Armi disagrees with you. Libido does affect ATFs BTW. The graph in 20 that measured Shinji's psychic essance threashold signal is the same one used to measure Kaworu's ATF. Guess what is on that graph...
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Postby Defectron » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:29 pm

However, I don't think that either angels or evas have a desire to live, or any desires, for that matter.


No, although I don't think desire has any relation to AT field streingth I gotta disagree. Angels are supposed to be variations of humans and most humans do tend to have desires, especially desire to live. We can see this with Zeruel, it really seemed like he tried to fight to stay alive in the end.

Also at least some of the angels desire to return to Adam for whatever reason.
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Postby NemZ » Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:30 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:And it's connected to ATF collapse why?


I didn't say it was (nor was anyone, near as I can tell...), but for what it's worth, it makes just as much sense for a bunch of little ATFs that hold a person together through mutual effort to collapse as it does for one big one. Maybe more so... if it's just one field, how can Rei fall apart in pieces rather than all at once?

If people are held together by a single static field, how do they move? lots of little fields in a semi-connected lattice would make for a much more fluid existence, right?

I've already said this, I am not talking about mass just size.


Are fat people not physically bigger in your world?

This is the model Anno used for the Evas matching the Angels I'm just trying to get people to see it's not as absurd as Reichu would like to make it out to be. Clearly Anno didn't work out all the fine details in this but you know what? It's backgroud crap that didn't really concern him so deal with it.


That's a crappy answer. Quite likely, but hardly satisfying.
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Postby Gamer_2k4 » Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:40 pm

NemZ wrote:
I've already said this, I am not talking about mass just size.

Are fat people not physically bigger in your world?

I think we've gone over this before. A balloon can be the same size as a bowling ball, yet it has significantly less mass.

Incidentally, a large fat person can have the same mass as a small muscular person.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:26 pm

NemZ wrote:Maybe more so... if it's just one field, how can Rei fall apart in pieces rather than all at once?

Rei shouldn't fall apart at all seeing as she's made of the same matter as the Angels. That stuff should be like clay keeping it's form once molded.

If people are held together by a single static field, how do they move? lots of little fields in a semi-connected lattice would make for a much more fluid existence, right?

You really think Anno gave it that much thought? As far as we know from NERV's uber-alien derived technology we have a single energy field. Does your idea make more sense? Sure. Did Anno think of all the fine details? I dunno. Be my guest and fanwank this bitch.

Are fat people not physically bigger in your world?

Look, I'm not trying to make some uber-fanwank that explains it in full detail, just making a point so I'm just keeping it as basic as possible. If someone else wants to tackle this monster please be my guest.

That's a crappy answer. Quite likely, but hardly satisfying.

It's not supposed to be satisfying. The truth of the matter is NGE is far from perfect and the CI allows us to see just how imperfect it is. People wanted the answers and now that they've gotten some of them they don't like what they see. There are a lot of things Anno did in the series that weren't well thought out. That's just something people have to deal with.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Postby Reichu » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:51 pm

SO IF BIG THINGS HAS BIGGER AT FILDZ HOW COME Rei AND KOWAUR HAVE BIG AT FILEDZ THEIR NOT VERY BIG LOL
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Postby Enki v.2 » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:55 pm

Reichu wrote:SO IF BIG THINGS HAS BIGGER AT FILDZ HOW COME Rei AND KOWAUR HAVE BIG AT FILEDZ THEIR NOT VERY BIG LOL


QFT.

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:06 pm

I already said there is no reason for the process to work in reverse. They already had all the power nature required for a lifeform their size. They'd just have loads of extra power.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Postby Reichu » Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:21 pm

I was too distracted by the stuff about blue whales, self-awareness, and psychics earlier to notice whether or not Rei and Kaworu were sufficiently addressed, and I still can't make any immediate sense of what you say directly above.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:30 pm

Rei and Kaworu existed as much larger beings in the past. Their souls were calibrated for those larger forms. Moving them to smaller forms wouldn't need to affect their ATF strength at all since there's are already more than powerful enough for those smaller forms. Following me here?
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Postby Reichu » Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:33 pm

Why would their souls need to be "calibrated" in the first place if the large body size acted as an automatic magnifier?
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Postby Enki v.2 » Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:35 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:Rei and Kaworu existed as much larger beings in the past. Their souls were calibrated for those larger forms. Moving them to smaller forms wouldn't need to affect their ATF strength at all since there's are already more than powerful enough for those smaller forms. Following me here?


Wait... So you're saying the AT FIELD is based on compile time projected mass calculation, not actual mass calculation?

... Is the God of the Evaverse afflicted with advanced-stage C Programmer's Disease?!

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:44 pm

It only needs to happen for smaller lifeforms moving to bigger ones cause their ATF's aren't strong enough for those larger forms. This stuff is hardly natural and nature would be like ZOMG ATF too weak must compinsate! The whole entry is talking specificly about the Evas and what happens to a Lilim Ego getting moved into it. Once the process is complete the change would be permanent like our ATF's remember our genetic codes and stuff. Move that soul into a form the same size as the original and it doesn't need to adapt at all because it has all the nessicary power for a form at that size and them some.
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Postby Reichu » Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:53 pm

So sauropods and whales had/have incredible powers of telekinesis, right?
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:57 pm

ATF strength =/= projection abilities. That'd be a trait of the matter. If they were made out of the magic matter then sure.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!


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