A.T. Field Technicalities

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Postby AuraTwilight » Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:37 pm

Do you think a Blue Whale has an ATF the same strength as ours? How about a mouse?


No, because our souls/minds are more advanced. The whale and mouse aren't even all that self-aware.

The bigger something is the more power it would need to maintain molecular cohesion.


Yea, great thing AT Fields have to do with molecu-oh wait.

Let's face facts here, we really know jack-shit about how ATFs really work


We do know they're the light of the soul, though, not the light of molecular cohesion.

I'd like to tell the MAGI to go fudge themselves for saying Lilith is the same species as us but I can't because it's offical.


Well, she's our Seed, so it makes sense.

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:43 pm

AuraTwilight wrote:Yea, great thing AT Fields have to do with molecu-oh wait.

Fuyutsuki:
An anti-AT Field...

(Eva series form into the Sephiroticum (Tree of Life))

Maya:
All the data are just like 15 years ago!
Then... this really is... The prelude to Third Impact!

-----------------------------------

SCENE: Outside NERV

1st soldier:
S2 system level critical!

Background:
Abort operations! All units pull back at once!

2nd soldier:
We... We can't maintain molecular attraction any longer!

JSSDF Commander:
Mission... failed...

Guess what that means an ATF does.


We do know they're the light of the soul, though, not the light of molecular cohesion.

I never said it wasn't holding our molecules together just happens to be one of it's jobs.

Well, she's our Seed, so it makes sense.

It makes sense if we ignore say the massive size difference. My point is Anno does non-sensical stuff so deal with it.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Postby AuraTwilight » Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:02 am

Guess what that means an ATF does.


I think that quote of yours is a bit out of context.

It makes sense if we ignore say the massive size difference. My point is Anno does non-sensical stuff so deal with it.


Lilith can pretty much be any size she wants.

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Postby TheAyanamiOtaku » Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:38 am

AuraTwilight wrote:Lilith can pretty much be any size she wants.


Aye. Perhaps she uses her ATF to enlarge herself? Or...idano that was a shot in the dark.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:32 pm

AuraTwilight wrote:I think that quote of yours is a bit out of context.

No it's not. That is exactly what tanging is.
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Postby Defectron » Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:56 pm

No, because our souls/minds are more advanced. The whale and mouse aren't even all that self-aware.


Whales are actually supposed to be pretty intelligent. So theirs might be pretty close to what a humans is.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:03 pm

That is also making a huge assumption that somethings brain has any impact on it's ATF. A whale would need a stronger ATF BTW.
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Postby Zuggy » Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:58 am

AuraTwilight wrote:The whale and mouse aren't even all that self-aware.

What. All animals are as conscious as you and me are.

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Postby Gamer_2k4 » Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:46 am

Zuggy wrote:
AuraTwilight wrote:The whale and mouse aren't even all that self-aware.

What. All animals are as conscious as you and me are.

Actually, I'm pretty sure they're not. Maybe some of the smarter animals are conscious, but for the most part, their actions are more stimulus-response and instinct and less self-preservation and awareness.
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Postby NemZ » Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:13 pm

Gamer_2k4 wrote:Actually, I'm pretty sure they're not. Maybe some of the smarter animals are conscious, but for the most part, their actions are more stimulus-response and instinct and less self-preservation and awareness.


Most human action can be described in exactly the same way, though we tend to wrap motivations and rationalizations around it after the fact.

I also refuse to believe that the more intelligent and social animals near the top of the food chain don't have some rudimentary level of consciousness. Either they have some degree of self-awareness or none of us do, and it's all just an illusion accidentally arising from a complex but completely mechanistic framework of behavioristic and instinctual programing.
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Postby Defectron » Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:19 pm

Well my mom has a freind whose supposed to be psychic, she says she can communicate with not only animals but also plants telepathically. Anyway as far fetched as that might sound, she was able to help me out with some of my pet problems by talking to my lizards.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:46 pm

No it's not. That is exactly what tanging is.


Whatever. It's a bit of a silly quote anyway, as I don't know why a soldier would suddenly be all "OMG MY MOLECULES NOOO"

Whales are actually supposed to be pretty intelligent. So theirs might be pretty close to what a humans is.


Intelligence != Self-Awareness

What. All animals are as conscious as you and me are.


Consciousness != Self-Awareness

A whale would need a stronger ATF BTW.


Nuh uh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness It's not that animals don't have self-awareness, it's just that they're not AS self-aware. It has nothing to do with brains or instincts, really.

Well my mom has a freind whose supposed to be psychic, she says she can communicate with not only animals but also plants telepathically. Anyway as far fetched as that might sound, she was able to help me out with some of my pet problems by talking to my lizards.


Yea, bullshit.

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Postby Defectron » Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:11 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness It's not that animals don't have self-awareness, it's just that they're not AS self-aware. It has nothing to do with brains or instincts, really.


Well the thing is, we can't really prove how self aware animals like Whales are, for all we know they could be as self aware as humans are or theyu might not be. But we have no way of knowing that since communicating with whales has not been done under scientifically proven means to my knowledge. It can be proven though that chimpanzees and some other primates do have this concept though as people have communicated with these animals through sign language and they do refer to themselves as individuals.
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Postby Zuggy » Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:44 pm

Gamer_2k4 wrote:Actually, I'm pretty sure they're not. Maybe some of the smarter animals are conscious, but for the most part, their actions are more stimulus-response and instinct and less self-preservation and awareness.

Take the example of all those animals that are killed on the roads each year - they get run over because they aren't aware that it's dangerous to be where they are when crossing.

Stick yourself on an alien planet for a moment, you're walking along when suddenly! you're run over by an alien craft on the equivalent of their roads - you have no concept of what their equivalent of a road even is or that it was dangerous to be there, it just happened out of the blue.

You can extend this example to anything, and as you can't display any sort of proper conscious awareness to the folks on this alien planet they'll view you the same way you view animals, Gamer - does that make you a creature whose actions are more stimulus-response and instinct and less self-preservation and awareness?

AuraTwilight wrote:Consciousness != Self-Awareness

Explain the difference to me.

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Postby Gamer_2k4 » Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:10 pm

Defectron wrote:Well the thing is, we can't really prove how self aware animals like Whales are

Can't we just stick a mirror in front of them and see what happens? For example, I would say that birds who attack their reflections aren't very self-aware.

Zuggy wrote:
Gamer_2k4 wrote:Actually, I'm pretty sure they're not. Maybe some of the smarter animals are conscious, but for the most part, their actions are more stimulus-response and instinct and less self-preservation and awareness.

Take the example of all those animals that are killed on the roads each year - they get run over because they aren't aware that it's dangerous to be where they are when crossing.

Stick yourself on an alien planet for a moment, you're walking along when suddenly! you're run over by an alien craft on the equivalent of their roads - you have no concept of what their equivalent of a road even is or that it was dangerous to be there, it just happened out of the blue.

You can extend this example to anything, and as you can't display any sort of proper conscious awareness to the folks on this alien planet they'll view you the same way you view animals, Gamer - does that make you a creature whose actions are more stimulus-response and instinct and less self-preservation and awareness?

The difference here (and I hope it's a real difference and not just an exploitation of your limited scenario) is that when I'm on the planet, I'm making decisions based on my inputs, rather then simply reacting to them. If I get creamed by a spaceship that operates on some other plane of existence, then yes, I'm as unaware of my environment as a deer is unaware of human civilization. But that has nothing to do with my intelligence or capacity for rational thought and self-awareness.

To examine that issue, lets say that both the deer and I see the car and spacecraft (respectively, of course) coming at us. The deer clears out of there because car == unknown and unknown == dangerous. I'll try to get away because spaceship == large object coming at me at high velocity and high velocity impact == injury and/or death.

Now, the deer is acting on instinct. It has a pre-programmed set of things that are good for it, and cars don't fall into that group. Is the deer aware that avoiding the car probably saved its life? Probably not. Therefore, its sense of self-preservation is nothing more than instinct. I, on the other hand, recognize that I'm a person, recognize that I'm alive, and recognize that there are things that can end that life. Consequently, I'll take conscious steps to ensure that I experience things that will end my life as little as possible.

Zuggy wrote:
AuraTwilight wrote:Consciousness != Self-Awareness

Explain the difference to me.

If you're awake, you're conscious. If you have trouble realizing that you're the one moving your arms and legs, you're not self aware. Consider a bee. If it's not sleeping (or whatever bees do), then it's conscious. However, when a bee interacts with other members of the hive, does it do so because the scents and pheromones are familiar to it, or because it honestly recognizes that the bees have a similar body and behavior to itself, and it therefore considers them to be not enemies?
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:44 pm

AuraTwilight wrote:Whatever. It's a bit of a silly quote anyway, as I don't know why a soldier would suddenly be all "OMG MY MOLECULES NOOO"

Because he is about to go tang. 3I has started and everyone is gonna die. That's plenty of reason to panic about it.

Nuh uh.

Uh-huh. It's a much larger form to maintain and would require much more energy to do so. It's got jack to do with self-awareness.
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Postby NemZ » Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:56 pm

Gamer_2k4 wrote:Can't we just stick a mirror in front of them and see what happens? For example, I would say that birds who attack their reflections aren't very self-aware.


or they just aren't aware of what a reflection is and don't have the mental facilities to reason out this situation. The bird in question may have complete awareness of what is doing to fight off this other damned stubborn bird who won't back down.

The difference here (and I hope it's a real difference and not just an exploitation of your limited scenario) is that when I'm on the planet, I'm making decisions based on my inputs, rather then simply reacting to them. If I get creamed by a spaceship that operates on some other plane of existence, then yes, I'm as unaware of my environment as a deer is unaware of human civilization. But that has nothing to do with my intelligence or capacity for rational thought and self-awareness.


A question of self-awareness? No.
A question of intelligence and capacity for rational thought? Very yes. Intelligence can be defined as the relative ability to use observation and applied reasoning to negotiate around dangers and other obstacles of all types.

To examine that issue, lets say that both the deer and I see the car and spacecraft (respectively, of course) coming at us. The deer clears out of there because car == unknown and unknown == dangerous. I'll try to get away because spaceship == large object coming at me at high velocity and high velocity impact == injury and/or death.


Bullshit. If you see a spaceship suddenly flying towards you there will be no time to ponder just how much damage it's approximate mass and velocity will inflict upon you. You will see it, freak, and either jump the hell out of the way or mentally lock up... like a deer in the headlights, so to speak. Instincts, say hello!

Now, the deer is acting on instinct. It has a pre-programmed set of things that are good for it, and cars don't fall into that group. Is the deer aware that avoiding the car probably saved its life? Probably not. Therefore, its sense of self-preservation is nothing more than instinct.


Pre-programed, or learned behavior through socializing with it's parents and peers? As to the rest, as soon as you find out how to speak deer we'll have answers. Otherwise you're just performing an ass-pull.

I, on the other hand, recognize that I'm a person, recognize that I'm alive, and recognize that there are things that can end that life. Consequently, I'll take conscious steps to ensure that I experience things that will end my life as little as possible.


...though none of this reasoning and rationalization will occur to your conscious mind until after the moment has passed and raw instinct has already saved your silly human backside.

If you're awake, you're conscious.


yes, that's #6 of the 8 definitions listed for the word 'conscious' according to merriam-webster.

merriam-webster wrote:1: perceiving, apprehending, or noticing with a degree of controlled thought or observation <was>
2archaic : sharing another's knowledge or awareness of an inward state or outward fact
3: personally felt <conscious>
4: capable of or marked by thought, will, design, or perception
5: self-conscious
6: having mental faculties undulled by sleep, faintness, or stupor : awake <was>
7: done or acting with critical awareness
8 a: likely to notice, consider, or appraise
b: being concerned or interested <weight> c: marked by strong feelings or notions
synonyms: see aware


some of those other possiblities sound suspiciously more difficult to differentiate from self-awareness, however... such as #5 and 'aware' being listed as a synonym.

Wiki might help... oh, wait, the first senctence in wiki about consciousness is that it's "impossible to define." Aww shucks.

Consider a bee. If it's not sleeping (or whatever bees do), then it's conscious. However, when a bee interacts with other members of the hive, does it do so because the scents and pheromones are familiar to it, or because it honestly recognizes that the bees have a similar body and behavior to itself, and it therefore considers them to be not enemies?


We really don't know why they do it, we just that from observation that they do. Learn to speak bee and maybe we'll find out.

It might sound annoyingly dismissive, but my point is that until humanity does come into contact with a species that we can perceive to be conscious we will never have any basis for understanding the term outside our own limited experience. Hell, if you want to get technical you still can't prove that other humans are conscious... you just accept the assumption that they are because they react in similar fashion to the way you do. Well, assuming you actually are conscious and not just some insidiously designed conversation machine attached to teh interwebs, of course.
Last edited by NemZ on Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:26 pm

Can a mod please reign this in?
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Postby NemZ » Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:00 pm

Why does ATF strength have anything to do with keeping a bigger 'something' together? With all the quantum weirdness involved it doesn't seem that much of a stretch to say that the field that maintains an LCL lifeform naturally coincides with it's shape without regards to radiating over a distance, like instantaneous information exchange between inked quarks.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:16 pm

The ATF is a mold holding molecules together. Think of it like trying to make something out of dry sand. It isn't going to hold it's shape without that mold and the bigger it gets the stronger that mold has to be to cope.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!


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