Questions on Lilith (Motivation, Mind, Soul)

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:37 pm

NemZ wrote:I didn't say anything about EOE... and I don't put it past Gendo to just have a more complex transition guide sequence than most.

That was clearly Yui, Adam, and Lilith doing a wacky ATF projection trick. Gendo actually got bit in half after all.

Well, how else would they get Rei 1 into unit 00 then? Can a corpse achieve a 400% sync rate?

They have moved Lilith's soul from Rei II to Rei III and Adam's from Kaworu to Adam. They don't need a 400% synch for soul transfer. Kyoko didn't do this since she still had a body and Adam's soul was bodyless before it was moved to Kaworu.

Um... didn't it pretty much do exactly that? "Thanks for the new arm and such. Oh well, I gotta run. Armageddon won't start itself, you know."

It wasn't the lol instant death it was made out to be. Rei didn't have to go through with 3I if she didn't want to.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:00 am

Probably just the ones whose mothers could be convinced to just sit in this cylinder for a sec... uh, for science!


Or they could just take the souls from their corpses.

I think it's likely that the AT field was only usable due to her proximity to her true body. She can probably remote-start Lilith (and possibly unit 01?) the same way Kwarou does with 02.


Her body wouldn't have any effect on her AT Field, it's the light of the soul.

...and possibly based upon stolen data from Seele's success in doing likewise with Adam/Kwarou.


I don't think SEELE made Kaworu at all, and even then, there's no way NERV would know about him that early, nor did SEELE know about Rei that early.

Perhaps Rei can comprehend all human languages?


No way in hell. Rei's not a psychic.

I would offer that perhaps memories are not synonymous with the soul, but rather compose a third pillar of human existence, and thus would not be transfered with the soul into a new body if the conscious mind became separated from it?


The series makes it pretty clear that the soul and mind are synonymous, and thus so would memories be. And Yui and Kaworu have no memory problems.

It's also entirely possible that the dummy plug / memory recorder thingamajig wasn't done when Rei 1 expired, thus Rei 2 possesses none of her experiences. Rei 1 then exists solely as a mouthpiece for Lilith during EOTV.


It wouldn't really matter. I can give that Rei II has none of Rei I's experiences, but it wouldn't be because of a lack of Dummy Plug.

Actually, are we absolutely positive Rei 1 was killed? Just because she went limp and Naoko (in a panic) thought she was dead doesn't mean she necessarily was. Perhaps she was still kicking up until the -real- first contact experiment with unit 00. And on that note... wouldn't you expect it to be a really bad idea to put Lilith's soul in a cloned Adam body? If the Rei 1 = Unit 00 idea is true, why didn't 3I happen about 8 years ago?


We saw her neck snap. Special powers or not, Rei's in a human body that can die, she's not an Angel like Kaworu. And besides, "souls" are all the same regardless of body. The forbidden union of the Fruits is biological.

Well, how else would they get Rei 1 into unit 00 then? Can a corpse achieve a 400% sync rate?


NERV has the technology to extract and transfer souls from corpses.

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Postby BobBQ » Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:48 am

AuraTwilight wrote:Special powers or not, Rei's in a human body that can die, she's not an Angel like Kaworu.

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Postby slothen » Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:37 am

both have special powers, human bodies, and since they have the souls of angels, i would say they are both angels. Kaworu was killed when he was squished, Rei certainly was killed when zerogouki blew up.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:01 pm

BobBQ wrote:
AuraTwilight wrote:Special powers or not, Rei's in a human body that can die, she's not an Angel like Kaworu.

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Even assuming both of them are "part Seed of Life Clone", Lilith is "human", so nyeh. :P

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:30 pm

All humans on the planet are Angels. Surely you've all been around long enough to know this... If you mean offspring of Adam Rei certainly is not.
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Postby NemZ » Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:48 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:That was clearly Yui, Adam, and Lilith doing a wacky ATF projection trick. Gendo actually got bit in half after all.


Clearly? Heh, this is still 26' we're talking about, right?

I suppose that interpretation depends entirely upon what you mean by 'actually', as unit 01 was otherwise occupied at the time. Just because he saw something more complicated are we forced to assume Gendo didn't just end up tanged like everyone else?

They have moved Lilith's soul from Rei II to Rei III and Adam's from Kaworu to Adam. They don't need a 400% synch for soul transfer. Kyoko didn't do this since she still had a body and Adam's soul was bodyless before it was moved to Kaworu.


We don't actually know how it happens besides this way, as anything else happens off camera. It can be assumed that Yui went the same way, and likely Kyoko was a good deal along that road as well before either the process was stopped early or she was salvaged incorrectly.

It wasn't the lol instant death it was made out to be. Rei didn't have to go through with 3I if she didn't want to.


They never said it would instant, just that it was likely. Rei didn't have to do it, but could they have stopped her if she did? Do we have anything other than epic fanwanks to explain what all is needed for the red earth ceremony or any other potential 3I scenarios?

AuraTwilight wrote:Or they could just take the souls from their corpses.


How do they do that? I don't recall any explanation but I assume it is more involved than just yanking a little red ball out of you.

Her body wouldn't have any effect on her AT Field, it's the light of the soul.


Bodies are maintained by the AT field, are they not? So at least -some- of Lilith's field was tied up there. Considering angels keep trying to get there based on some kind of instinctual drive yet don't notice Rei any more particularly then the other pilots leads me to believe that most of Lilith's powers are still anchored to the flesh.

Considering the abilities many angels show to be in more than one place at a time (Iruel, the many transition guides and Rei phantoms, Kwarou dummies and fetus, and all of humanity) is it impossible to assume that maybe Rei is just a single fragment of the larger whole? Are we even sure that all the various existances of Rei Ayanami posses the same soul or soul fragment?

I don't think SEELE made Kaworu at all, and even then, there's no way NERV would know about him that early, nor did SEELE know about Rei that early.


Seele certainly act like they made him, and the commanders don't seem at all suprised by his true identity.

Either it's all just a coincidence that both have similar attributes and have been cloned repeatedly for use in dummy systems or they were based on the same research. If the later, why wouldn't Gendo try to take such an advantage away from the council exclusively? His birthdate (if correct) means he existed in hybrid form previous to Rei.

No way in hell. Rei's not a psychic.


Who said anything about her being a psychic? Being able to understand all forms of language is a very angelic trait to have, and one that is well founded in the various religious sources that were haphazardly used in the creation of this story.

The series makes it pretty clear that the soul and mind are synonymous, and thus so would memories be. And Yui and Kaworu have no memory problems.


How do we know that Yui is 'all there'? Did Kwarou actually have any memories before becoming a hybrid?

Besides, even if they don't have such problems Rei still does, so something isn't fitting into this picture.

It wouldn't really matter. I can give that Rei II has none of Rei I's experiences, but it wouldn't be because of a lack of Dummy Plug.


Even if those memories stayed with Rei I in unit 00's core, there is still a problem with resolving how the soul and memories can be separate if your earlier stance is correct. Unless you have another explanation, of course.

We saw her neck snap. Special powers or not, Rei's in a human body that can die, she's not an Angel like Kaworu. And besides, "souls" are all the same regardless of body. The forbidden union of the Fruits is biological.


We saw her choked at least into unconsciousness but there was no definitive 'snap', visually or otherwise.

Rei clearly isn't completely human (at least by traditional standards), and Kwarou states that they are the same, specifically while discussing their forms.

If souls are all the same, why can angels (including Kwarou and Rei) use their AT fields, the light of the soul, differently than humans?

Is an S2 engine really a physical thing? We never actually see it. Nor do we have the slightest idea what form, if any, the fruit of Lilith takes.
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Postby Sachi » Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:53 pm

NemZ wrote:Is an S2 engine really a physical thing? We never actually see it. Nor do we have the slightest idea what form, if any, the fruit of Lilith takes.

We see Unit-01 eat it in ep 20.
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Postby NemZ » Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:13 am

We're told what's generally happening and we see 01 eating lots of bits... chewing them quite a bit too. Which pinkish indecipherable blob of meat is the S2? How does it not get fuxored from mastication and presumed digestion?
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Postby slothen » Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:23 am

frankly, irrelevant.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:07 pm

NemZ wrote:Clearly? Heh, this is still 26' we're talking about, right?

I suppose that interpretation depends entirely upon what you mean by 'actually', as unit 01 was otherwise occupied at the time. Just because he saw something more complicated are we forced to assume Gendo didn't just end up tanged like everyone else?

Actually as in we see half his bloody body standing there after the crunch.

We don't actually know how it happens besides this way, as anything else happens off camera. It can be assumed that Yui went the same way, and likely Kyoko was a good deal along that road as well before either the process was stopped early or she was salvaged incorrectly.

400% synch = instant tang. Kyoko didn't tang. It didn't all happen the same way, least of all Adam who was bodyless before waking up in the Kaworu shell.

They never said it would instant, just that it was likely.

They implied it would be certain and very fast if an Angel made contact with Adam (Lilith). It was neither of these. Hell, Misato freaked when Gendo sent Rei to get the Spear. I'm calling BS on their 3I story.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:15 pm

All humans on the planet are Angels. Surely you've all been around long enough to know this... If you mean offspring of Adam Rei certainly is not.


Yea, we know. My point is that Rei is essentially a Lilin.

Clearly? Heh, this is still 26' we're talking about, right?

I suppose that interpretation depends entirely upon what you mean by 'actually', as unit 01 was otherwise occupied at the time. Just because he saw something more complicated are we forced to assume Gendo didn't just end up tanged like everyone else?


We saw his nommed corpse.

How do they do that? I don't recall any explanation but I assume it is more involved than just yanking a little red ball out of you.


Er...yea...that's pretty much how it goes.

Bodies are maintained by the AT field, are they not? So at least -some- of Lilith's field was tied up there.


Except that Lilith is made out of Particle Wave Matter, not LCL.

Considering angels keep trying to get there based on some kind of instinctual drive yet don't notice Rei any more particularly then the other pilots leads me to believe that most of Lilith's powers are still anchored to the flesh.


The target is Adam, not Lilith. And Angels seemed to notice Rei more particularly than the other pilots for sure, as she gets the most attempted assimilations.

Considering the abilities many angels show to be in more than one place at a time (Iruel, the many transition guides and Rei phantoms, Kwarou dummies and fetus, and all of humanity) is it impossible to assume that maybe Rei is just a single fragment of the larger whole? Are we even sure that all the various existances of Rei Ayanami posses the same soul or soul fragment?


None of those examples are really the same as the Rei transition guides, as those are all bodily multiplicities, not a single soul abusing Quantum Physics.

Seele certainly act like they made him, and the commanders don't seem at all suprised by his true identity.


They could've just found him when he was born and raised him as a tool.

Either it's all just a coincidence that both have similar attributes and have been cloned repeatedly for use in dummy systems or they were based on the same research. If the later, why wouldn't Gendo try to take such an advantage away from the council exclusively? His birthdate (if correct) means he existed in hybrid form previous to Rei.


Cloning something doesn't mean you made it.

Who said anything about her being a psychic? Being able to understand all forms of language is a very angelic trait to have, and one that is well founded in the various religious sources that were haphazardly used in the creation of this story.


Oh my god, did you seriously just try to compare NGE Angels to actual religious angels in ability?

How do we know that Yui is 'all there'? Did Kwarou actually have any memories before becoming a hybrid?

Besides, even if they don't have such problems Rei still does, so something isn't fitting into this picture.


I addressed Rei. Kaworu seems to know of his identity as Adam, and there's absolutely nothing to so much as hint that Yui is anywhere besides EVA-01, and buttloads of evidence that says she's all there.

Even if those memories stayed with Rei I in unit 00's core, there is still a problem with resolving how the soul and memories can be separate if your earlier stance is correct. Unless you have another explanation, of course.


Well, I don't see why the memories WOULDN'T split if you rip the soul in half.

We saw her choked at least into unconsciousness but there was no definitive 'snap', visually or otherwise.


So you don't think Naoko would atleast check for a damn pulse or something before jumping to her death and wigging out?

Rei clearly isn't completely human (at least by traditional standards), and Kwarou states that they are the same, specifically while discussing their forms.


He says they're the same in metaphysical nature, he never addresses their biologies.

If souls are all the same, why can angels (including Kwarou and Rei) use their AT fields, the light of the soul, differently than humans?


I didn't mean to say souls are the same in THAT sense, and I apologize. I meant that their ontological existence was the same, not their psychologies.

Is an S2 engine really a physical thing? We never actually see it. Nor do we have the slightest idea what form, if any, the fruit of Lilith takes.


I've never seen a kidney but I know it's there. How the hell can Yui-Sama eat an S2 Engine, or how can NERV transfer them into soulless Evangelions if they weren't physical?

We're told what's generally happening and we see 01 eating lots of bits... chewing them quite a bit too. Which pinkish indecipherable blob of meat is the S2? How does it not get fuxored from mastication and presumed digestion?


Particle Wave Matter lol.

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Postby NemZ » Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:52 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:Actually as in we see half his bloody body standing there after the crunch.


Um... way too much starch? lol.

Something weird happened there at any rate, since I doubt very much that Shinji took a time out to go back into the geofront, climb down to TD, pick up the old man and bite him in half, then set his legs down to nicely balance and remain standing while he went back out to get this whole instrumentality thing rolling.

400% synch = instant tang. Kyoko didn't tang. It didn't all happen the same way, least of all Adam who was bodyless before waking up in the Kaworu shell.


We don't know for sure what happened with Kyoko besides the fact that she had a contact experiment and part of her didn't come back. Maybe she was almost tanged and they cut it off. Maybe she did tang and they brought her back... just not whole.

Adam could have tanged in some form as well. That would go a long way towards explaining the redness of the south pole wouldn't it?

They implied it would be certain and very fast if an Angel made contact with Adam (Lilith). It was neither of these. Hell, Misato freaked when Gendo sent Rei to get the Spear. I'm calling BS on their 3I story.


Yes, the cover story is clearly full of it... but what the hell does 3I, in any form, require? There's so much going on in EOE that it's quite hard to tell what parts were which faction's plan, and what effect any of that had on the final outcome.

[quote="AuraTwilight"]

Er...yea...that's pretty much how it goes.


So is a soul a physical object, an energy field pattern, or something else entirely? Are salad tongs involved?

Except that Lilith is made out of Particle Wave Matter, not LCL.


Last I checked, all matter is in fact composed of particle/wave complexities at the quantum level. What's the difference?

The target is Adam, not Lilith. And Angels seemed to notice Rei more particularly than the other pilots for sure, as she gets the most attempted assimilations.


If it's Adam, why do angels 3, 4, and 5 come to Tokyo-3 instead of Germany?

I'll give on the Rei point, though doesn't that actually help my case that they were after either seed?

None of those examples are really the same as the Rei transition guides, as those are all bodily multiplicities, not a single soul abusing Quantum Physics.


Sure, but if bodies are formed and maintained by at fields/souls, what's the difference?

They could've just found him when he was born and raised him as a tool.

Cloning something doesn't mean you made it.


True. It just seems more likely to me that when two things seem to be similar, are specificlaly mentioned as being similar and are used in a similar fashion that they would have been made in the same way too. It isn't certain by any means, just rather more likely, IMHO.

Oh my god, did you seriously just try to compare NGE Angels to actual religious angels in ability?


yeah, but that's so far removed from the rest of this discussion and generally very out there, so I'm willing to drop it.

there's absolutely nothing to so much as hint that Yui is anywhere besides EVA-01, and buttloads of evidence that says she's all there.


I meant 'all there' in a mental sense, not a physical/spiritual one, ie crazy.

So you don't think Naoko would atleast check for a damn pulse or something before jumping to her death and wigging out?


Considering she was wigging out before she started choking her? No, I don't.

He says they're the same in metaphysical nature, he never addresses their biologies.


I'm pretty sure he says something about it being ironic they both have the same physical form amongst the lillims.

I've never seen a kidney but I know it's there. How the hell can Yui-Sama eat an S2 Engine, or how can NERV transfer them into soulless Evangelions if they weren't physical?

Particle Wave Matter lol.


I don't know, but citing 'unobtanium' doesn't get us anywhere either.
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Postby Ornette » Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:50 pm

NemZ wrote:Adam could have tanged in some form as well. That would go a long way towards explaining the redness of the south pole wouldn't it?

Why speculate on something that is pointless? Adam exploded.

Last I checked, all matter is in fact composed of particle/wave complexities at the quantum level. What's the difference?

One is used in the show to describe the specific matter that Angels were made of, that is different than regular matter, that also happened to have the quality that they can hold their shape without an AT Field (as opposed to Lilin). The other is real science.


I'm pretty sure he says something about it being ironic they both have the same physical form amongst the lillims.

Episode 24' wrote:So, both of us ended up in the same form as the Lilim while we inhabit this planet.

Could mean any number of things. Could simply mean, they both look like Lilims.

Also, many other sources say Rei I was killed by Naoko, and Rei II died in 23. There is no contention to this fact that isn't laughable.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:27 pm

Something weird happened there at any rate, since I doubt very much that Shinji took a time out to go back into the Geofront, climb down to TD, pick up the old man and bite him in half, then set his legs down to nicely balance and remain standing while he went back out to get this whole instrumentality thing rolling.



It was YUI using Lilith's (and to a lesser extent Adam's) trick of being in several places at once. The fact we see Yui's shirt go from pink to purple and then Eva-01 holding Gendo up in the next shot supports this idea. Shinji was LCL at this point, and within GNR/Lilith so there was no way he could have done that. He's a normal boy, unlike Lilith and Adam who are goddess like beings and Eva-01/Yui who at that point "had power to that of God" to paraphrase Fuyutsuki.
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Postby NemZ » Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:05 pm

Ornette wrote:Why speculate on something that is pointless?


Perhaps I have grossly misunderstood the vast majority of this forum's purpose. :)

One is used in the show to describe the specific matter that Angels were made of, that is different than regular matter, that also happened to have the quality that they can hold their shape without an AT Field (as opposed to Lilin).


Any examples of this strange property?

There is no contention to this fact that isn't laughable.


Well, if one accepts the "pull a red ball from a corpse" plan, I suppose it is entirely unnecessary. I'm still not satisfied with that as an answer though... it seems far to simplistic.

Sailor Star Dust wrote:The fact we see Yui's shirt go from pink to purple and then Eva-01 holding Gendo up in the next shot supports this idea. Shinji was LCL at this point, and within GNR/Lilith so there was no way he could have done that.


I've never noticed the shirt change before. nice catch.
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Postby Ornette » Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:22 pm

NemZ wrote:Any examples of this strange property?

Both Shamshel and Ramiel stuck around without a soul (core destroyed). The Evangelions were cloned without souls. I'm not sure how far the no-soul-no-at-field-no-shape conjecture can (should) be taken, since we don't really know the specifics of either. But, it's at least established that the stuff Angels are made from and the stuff Lilin is made from is different.

Well, if one accepts the "pull a red ball from a corpse" plan, I suppose it is entirely unnecessary. I'm still not satisfied with that as an answer though... it seems far to simplistic.

That's what the whole field of Metaphysical Biology is for within NGE.

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Postby BobBQ » Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:27 pm

ITT hot air, and lots of it.

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Postby AuraTwilight » Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:51 am

Um... way too much starch? lol.

Something weird happened there at any rate, since I doubt very much that Shinji took a time out to go back into the geofront, climb down to TD, pick up the old man and bite him in half, then set his legs down to nicely balance and remain standing while he went back out to get this whole instrumentality thing rolling.


Shinji had nothing to do with it, it was Yui.

Adam could have tanged in some form as well. That would go a long way towards explaining the redness of the south pole wouldn't it?


Angels don't Tang.

Yes, the cover story is clearly full of it... but what the hell does 3I, in any form, require? There's so much going on in EOE that it's quite hard to tell what parts were which faction's plan, and what effect any of that had on the final outcome.


What actually happened ultimately followed no one's scenario, but all that's really needed is Lance + Adam + Lilith, with possibilities for substitutes.

So is a soul a physical object, an energy field pattern, or something else entirely? Are salad tongs involved?


I'd go with some sort of energy.

Last I checked, all matter is in fact composed of particle/wave complexities at the quantum level. What's the difference?


http://evageeks.org/FGP/Particle-wave_matter

If it's Adam, why do angels 3, 4, and 5 come to Tokyo-3 instead of Germany?

I'll give on the Rei point, though doesn't that actually help my case that they were after either seed?


The Angels aren't omniscient. They might've sensed Lilith and mistook it for their Mother, or the same with the EVA Units.

Sure, but if bodies are formed and maintained by at fields/souls, what's the difference?


Angelic bodies aren't maintained by souls. As for Rei's transition guides, those all seemed to be one, connected soul that was in multiple places at once, instead of fragments of a soul spread apart.

It was YUI using Lilith's (and to a lesser extent Adam's) trick of being in several places at once. The fact we see Yui's shirt go from pink to purple and then Eva-01 holding Gendo up in the next shot supports this idea. Shinji was LCL at this point, and within GNR/Lilith so there was no way he could have done that. He's a normal boy, unlike Lilith and Adam who are goddess like beings and Eva-01/Yui who at that point "had power to that of God" to paraphrase Fuyutsuki.


To cut the fat for NemZ, "During EoE, Adam, Lilith, and Yui are essentially omnipotent as the plot demands."

Reichu
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Postby Reichu » Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:02 am

Is it just me, or is this thread being derailed by Fuzzy Logic (TM) and people attempting to argue with it?

Something resembling on-topic, or lock.
Last edited by Reichu on Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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