Question about the LoL

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NemZ
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Postby NemZ » Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:19 pm

Xard wrote:the fact that is awfully contrived even for Evangelion?


How so?

Seeds are supposed to come with spears, but we can't find one.

The one we have has a default form that implies duality.

The purpose of the spears is to prevent one seed from gaining both fruits... something that could only happen with two seeds.

The final view in EOE shows they are not connected, but merely orbiting each other.

And why wasn't Lilith skewered?


Adam is too polite for her own good?

Or do you mean in TD? Um... because it was in "stasis fork" mode rather than "javelin of death" form, maybe? Not sure, but this question is hardly a unique problem to my theory.

And why would you pack only half with Seed anyway?


because unless you get two on the same world you don't want it to mess with a properly functioning seed?

And they're NEVER separated pieces. Their level of direct connection/coherence just changes.


The perspective makes it tricky, but if you look closely they are not touching in EOE when blue-haired Yui floats away.

That also excludes the fact Spear is living, sentient lifeform. not two lego blocks or something


Everything else in the show is about living, sentient lifeforms trying to find a connection of some sort with another of their kind, or occasionally even with someone of a different kind. Why can't the spears get in on that thematic action to?
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Postby Reichu » Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:21 pm

If the Spear's form is naturally NOT a double-helix, then presumably the mass-produced clones would follow suit, but this is not what we observe. Also, the Spear having a double-helical nature might be a built-in practical measure, in that variation-on-Super-Solenoid sort of way. (Needs to be powered by SOMETHING.)

Xard wrote:And they're NEVER separated pieces. Their level of direct connection/coherence just changes.

Depends on which cut you look at... In the one where it actually transforms, there's a place in the middle where they still intertwine which serves as a grip. Later on, such as in the CG revolving shots, it looks distinctly like two separate pieces. :uhh:
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Postby NemZ » Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:55 pm

Reichu wrote:If the Spear's form is naturally NOT a double-helix, then presumably the mass-produced clones would follow suit, but this is not what we observe.


Sure, because they copied the only form they had available: the combined one. Besides, if you can copy both, why wouldn't you?
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Postby AuraTwilight » Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:39 am

CLONING DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY! [/Morbo]

That said, your theory is needlessly complicated and unhelpful, even for Evangelion.

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Postby NemZ » Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:26 am

Well, I don't know what to tell you then. It seemed fairly straightforward to me, is thematically and symbolically appropriate, fits all the verified information, and explains away a lingering mystery.

[Edit: sarcasm removed... though I believe I was actually fairly tame.]

So far many (not all) of the responses I've received have been either condescending or outright dismissive. I suppose I'm just rather confused by this reception since it appeared to me that this forum existed almost solely to offer wild speculation and spirited debate on the many open questions of NGE. Since I seem to be 'doing it wrong', perhaps someone could kindly offer an example or two of theories that are both 'helpful' and 'simple' enough to meet the expected norms for this community?
Last edited by NemZ on Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Reichu » Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:55 am

Aura's post was originally edgier (I snipped a couple of things out), and the snide sarcasm in response isn't any better. Considering the current atmosphere of the Discussion Forum, I wouldn't have a single hesitation about locking this thread, either.

And for the record, I do agree with Aura about your Spear-related ideas, NemZ. That is all.
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Postby bioweapon680 » Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:28 pm

slothen wrote:i wouldn't. a sword is a sword is a sword. not a spear.


Sorry. Don't take this the wrong way but, I thought symbolism doesn't have to be perfect... different items could be represented differently.

Forgive me if I'm wrong.
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Postby Gamer_2k4 » Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:18 pm

bioweapon680 wrote:
slothen wrote:i wouldn't. a sword is a sword is a sword. not a spear.


Sorry. Don't take this the wrong way but, I thought symbolism doesn't have to be perfect... different items could be represented differently.

Forgive me if I'm wrong.


Yeah, and OBVIOUSLY an angel is an angel is an angel, and not some trippy thing that shoots you and has an AT field. And the Fruit of Knowledge is a grape or something. And the White Moon is something that rotates around a planet, SOMEWHERE. And the Dirac Sea contains water. And Evangelions evangelize. And souls are metaphysical representations of ourselves that will eventually go to some afterlife. And an S^2 Engine contains solenoids. Oh, and that AT field mentioned earlier? Yeah, someone grew corn or something in it.

Geez. You'd think this stuff wouldn't be so hard to figure out.

I, personally, think that the symbolism may be legitimate.
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Postby Ornette » Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:21 pm

As I had mentioned before, the names aren't picked at random, meaning there is some internal consistiency with all of the religious naming. Presumably, Seele gave all the Angels and various other things their religious namesakes, given that Seele are fanatics.

Is it the real Spear that pierced Christ? No, unlikely, unless it somehow ended up shrinking to human size, used by a Roman soldier, then ended up impaling Adam.

Is there symbolism that relates it to its namesake? Yes, at the very least, internally in the NGE universe. Does this symbolism have any meaning outside of NGE? Maybe, but the creators claim it doesn't.

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Postby evilhead008 » Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:48 pm

AyrYntake wrote:Xard, I think that picture actually has a serious Biblical reference in it. If you read Revelations 1:12~16 you'll find a bit that says "I saw one like the Son of Man...and his voice was like the sound of many waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, and from his mouth came a sharp, two-edged sword".
Drop the bit about the stars, but isn't the LoL almost too obviously two-edged?


Hebrews 4:12 (New International Version)

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

The 2-edged sword was a formidable weapon in ancient times, because it's so much sharper (hehe) than a regular sword, and thus able to ocause 2x the amount of damage <3. It's compared to God to show his Omnipotence; on the flipside, in NGE, the Lance is the only thing that can stop "God."

I'm in Canada, but I had to reply to that.

I had just typed about a page of replies, and then I hit backspace and lost it all.

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Postby BobBQ » Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:54 pm

evilhead008 wrote:The 2-edged sword was a formidable weapon in ancient times, because it's so much sharper (hehe) than a regular sword, and thus able to ocause 2x the amount of damage <3.

Regular sword? The Roman standard issue model was double-edged, as were plenty of Greek and - IIRC - Egyptian types. What's regular about a single-edged sword outside Japan?

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Postby Mr. Tines » Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:11 pm

Indeed a good Saxon sword was pretty much two katana blades hammer-welded to a wrought iron spiral spine.
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Postby evilhead008 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:14 pm

Regular sword? The Roman standard issue model was double-edged, as were plenty of Greek and - IIRC - Egyptian types. What's regular about a single-edged sword outside Japan?


Indeed a good Saxon sword was pretty much two katana blades hammer-welded to a wrought iron spiral spine.


Hehe... woops. :pwnd:

Alright, I'm wrong on that. My idea was that the LoL isn't based on a double edged sword. sry.

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Postby UrsusArctos » Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:09 pm

There are a whole lot of curved swords out there, not just in Japan. Curved, straight-edged swords are pretty common. The Chinese had a curved, broad-bladed single-edged sword (The Dao) alongside a straight-bladed, double-edged one (The Jian). Egyptians used a sword that was somewhat sickle-shaped (IIRC, it was called the Khopesh).

And don't forget that there were bladed weapons a lot nastier than an ordinary sword- the Falx, for instance.

I'd be better comparing an LnY to a Trident than to a sword. I don't know if the Indian version was used as a combat weapon, but the Chinese had a version of the trident themselves (I forget what they called it).
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Postby VoidEater » Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:26 pm

Perhaps of note: swords (of any variety) are close-quarters slashing weapons, also sometimes used for piercing (depending on the type of sword and culture/training of the user).

Lances and spears are not close-quarters weapons. Lances are piercing and (effectively) blockading weapons for medium-distance and spears are piercing weapons held for medium-distance and thrown for long-distance attack. Their use is fundamentally different from swords.

IIRC, Biblical symbology uses swords (edged weapons) exclusively as symbols for death, conquest, cutting.

What we see in NGE is the spear as symbol for piercing, entry, and the like. It's true that the LnY can kill, but it goes further than that: it is a double-helix, a representation of DNA (with all that implies along with the piercing). In that respect, it loses its function if it were only a single tine spear. It loses it's symbology of control (of life, of evolution).
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Postby pat457 » Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:43 am

AyrYntake wrote:What does the LoL actually symbolize? I used to think that it was a representation of death, since it's the only thing that can disregard AT Fields (all living things, i.e. everything with a soul, will someday die: you can't shut out death with your soul and expect to live forever.) Also the LoL derives its name from Longinus, the Roman centurion who ultimately killed Jesus on the cross, hence the "Spear of Destiny" name. Again, death was the ultimate sacrifice of God to mankind.
But from what I've read here, nothing seems to point to that idea anymore, and now I'm slightly confused as to the claim that the LoL has a "mind of its own"...could somebody please explain?


Erm, no. Jesus was already dead when He got speared; the act was only don to make sure that he was not faking it. Just nitpicking. ^_^

evilhead008 wrote:Hebrews 4:12 (New International Version)

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

The 2-edged sword was a formidable weapon in ancient times, because it's so much sharper (hehe) than a regular sword, and thus able to ocause 2x the amount of damage <3. It's compared to God to show his Omnipotence; on the flipside, in NGE, the Lance is the only thing that can stop "God."


Additional information about the 'two-edged sword' (shamelessly lifted from a project of mine a while ago) in Revelation:

Two-edged sword (Greek: Romphaia distomos): The word rhomphaia was originally used to mean a close combat bladed weapon (a polearm) used by the Thracians as early as 400 B.C, a variant of the Dacian Falx.

The word was later used to mean a sword (Plutarch: Life of Aemilius Paulus 18, Eustathius, on Iliad verse VI 166, Hesychius, Luke 2:35 and Revelation), which it still carries today in modern Greek (‘a big broad sword’).

A Roman gladius, with a double-edged blade


The Greek of Hebrews 4:12, meanwhile, uses the phrase "Machairan distomon" for the phrase (Machaira originally meaning a sort of a large knife, eventually being used to mean "sword" generically in Koine Greek).
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